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Old 06/06/08, 3:21 PM   #166
Kytrarewn
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Kytrarewn
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Originally Posted by tetracycloide View Post
But the damage isn't equal. Rogues are head and shoulders above every class and spec combination with the single exception of BM hunters with legendary bows (possibly survival hunters with legendary bows too this remains to be seen). Bows which only drop once the entire game is on farm status. This fact has been evident in all of that actual data presented in this thread.
You're comparing off of warglaives. Stop that.

Without legendaries in consideration, Rogues, Warlocks, Hunters all can easily put out 2200-2300DPS, with otherwise best-in-slot gear (with rogues, of course, requiring 3 support classes in their group, rather than just a shaman and a druid to hit that level of DPS, or an elem shaman and a shadowpriest for the lock).

Mages hit 2100 to 2200.

Enh Shaman and Arms War can hit 1900-2000.

I wouldn't call that "Heads and shoulders above every other class" when in fact it amounts to ~3% DPS across the classes that provide little to no other raid utility.

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Old 06/06/08, 4:50 PM   #167
tetracycloide
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Quel'dorei
Comparisons have been done in this thread that take the entire population of rogues into account, not just those with glaives. If you want to post some actual numbers to back up your gloom and doom claims about rogue DPS being dead the go right ahead. This is a theorycrafting forum though, we respect actual math here, not 'ZOMG THE DPS IS NT MAXORZS, WTF GIVS?'

At the end of the day the glaives DO exist and they are the only legendary relevent to sunwell progression, which just makes the case all that much stronger. Not to mention the fact that ~3% DPS is more than significant enough to matter.

My vanity is justified.

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Old 06/06/08, 4:54 PM   #168
Dorvan
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Human Paladin
 
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Originally Posted by Repins View Post
I'm unsure if this has been said before and I hope it hasn't but wouldn't a fair and extremely helpful buff for rogues be if haste affected energy gain? When looking at a damage meter you can always tell what rogue did the most dps by looking at the energy gained meter (assuming they no how to play their class). It seems as if either haste affecting the cooldowns of blade furry/ar/trinkets or affecting energy gain would be a good fair buff. Personally it doesn't seem as if a group buff fits into the "rogue" character and thus I am trying to think of some other way to make a rogue more effective. It seems to me with shamans being able to heal/melee dps/caster dps and paladins being able to tank/melee dps/heal and warriors being able to dps/tank that it makes no sense as to why a rogue that has no party buffs and can do nothing but dps shouldn't be the best at dpsing. It seems as if it would be appropriate to put rogues clearly on top of damage meters since it is the only thing the class can actually do and making haste affect energy gain is a fair way to do it.
Energy regen already does scale with haste for Combat rogues via Combat Potency.

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Old 06/06/08, 5:16 PM   #169
 gwystyl
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Ysera
Tetracycloide, the concern I have with your posts thus far is that they suggest an unwillingness to even consider another perspective on some critical points. Please explain a little more why you insist that warglaive set rogues attacking demons should be considered a balancing point for rogue raid dps? The fact that they are legendary should count for something other than the fact that they are, otherwise, lackluster and hardly deserving their font color on anything other than a demon. Further, given their rarity, it seems to be a logically indefensible position to maintain that a double warglaive rogue doing 2800-3k dps is correctly balanced vs hunters doing 2800-3k dps without Thori'dal. Unless you mean to tell me your firm belief is that hunters bring no value to a raid other than their personal dps, I don't see how you can look at the standings and say "yep, that's about right."

This is looking at the top 15 WWS Scoreboard holders on Brutallus. Unless I'm very behind on current events, none of those parses on the hunter side feature a Thori'dal whereas all the parses on the rogue side feature double warglaives. The hunters would do that damage against any kind of boss. The rogues would lose a significant step on any non-demon.

Insofar as your earlier analysis amongst the classes, I'm sure it was time consuming but the flaw in thinking was already discussed. You can't average out an entire class when there are 2 prevailing specs that one class uses, one of which is a sacrificial "take one for the team" spec. It makes such comparisons irrelevant. If there were a way to segregate via spec on WWS, I'd offer up a counter but to my knowledge, there isn't.

You also levied the point that looking at the top performers has the problem of making class comparisons using exceptionally talented players. OK, fine, but it stands to reason that the talent pools would have similar levels of skill distributed among the classes so comparing the best of one vs the best of the other doesn't seem harmful.

It also bears noting that some of the top 15 scoreboard holders on the rogue side did it with very unrealistic group synergies. Their raid groups literally focused the other 4 members of that group on pumping up the rogue. I saw MS warrior, enh shaman, ret, feral AND rogue groupings. Compare that to 3x hunter, shaman, feral which is entirely more likely. The feral gains massive threat gen via FI, avoidance via GoA when tanking, massive dps via both of those tools when FITE-ing (cat durid is fore fite!), hunters gaining synergistic FI stacking and LotP as well as GoA and mana return, shaman gaining LotP and FI stacking if enhancement and you have a beautiful grouping where everyone is helping one another and producing truly wonderful results.

Now look back at the rogue leech(es) in their group producing the same results ONLY IF they have legendary weapons on a demon boss type and offering nothing in return for their group.

I just can't seem to get myself to see your perspective, but I do want to understand it.

Edit: I just rechecked the scoreboard and the landscape has changed a little

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Old 06/06/08, 6:06 PM   #170
lubricious
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Night Elf Rogue
 
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Unless I missed something somewhere, the concerns I and many other people have about rogue viability stem from the pending addition of yet another melee DPS class, which may have more utility and raid-role options than rogues (like every other melee class).

Comparing current WWS parses against current bosses and using current equipment as proof that rogues are currently viable in raids is rather pointless in the context of future viability for the expansion. Rogues are perfectly viable right now. However, whether or not we stay that way will depend heavily on exactly what changes Blizzard makes to our class in relation to the other classes. If our personal DPS (since it's all we have) becomes marginalized by the abilities of the new class, it can be reasonably assumed rogue raid slots will drop to somewhere between one and none. Therefore, some of us have chosen to discuss ways we think Blizzard should go about adding to our raid contribution. If you don't think rogues have anything to worry about, then good for you, but we choose to discuss how we feel about the class anyway.

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Old 06/06/08, 6:16 PM   #171
Cally
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
Terokkar
I'd have to agree with Gwystyl.

For quick reference, here is the top 15 dps for Brutallus.

9 of the top 15 slots are taken by hunters WITHOUT legendaries. If Brutallus were not a demon or if you remove the warglaives from the rogues, I think that rogues would drop off entirely from that list. If I were a min-maxing type of raid leader I would probably remove rogues entirely since hunters alone can match their raw dps while providing a group buff. Plus it's much easier to get a T6 geared hunter than a double warglaive rogue.

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Old 06/06/08, 11:35 PM   #172
Provendor
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Human Mage
 
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Being one of those rogues on that "Top 15" you'd have to take into account the way people stack their groups. My achievement was done about almost 2 months ago and still remains up there. Right after I topped the chart we stopped doing the fight that way because it required too much time/effort to stack the raid that way. As we know, Rodemboo has since stopped raiding. Thus these numbers are practically useless. As stated it is much easier to stack a raid group for the Brutallus fight that for Hunters than it is for Rogues. Catalyst was one of the few that continued to do the encounter in this fashion until they stopped raiding. For the Hunters that are topping the meter now, they probably run Brutallus with their normal raid setups. Stacking a fight for a rogue to maximize DPS has at this point become much more difficult and unnecessary in light of the new Hunter figures. It is this fact that the synergy required to make the rogue "head and shoulders above" is so difficult at this stage that worries the rogues about the new upcoming talents and skills. However as yet without insight into WOTLK we cannot make any judgements. Yes I believe that rogues should be able to top damage meters now (especially since they bring no synergy to the group their in and require so much more to do that top damage), but like stated above we have no idea what Blizzard has in mind for us. We can only hope that some decent people get into Beta to fight on our behalf.

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Old 06/08/08, 4:26 AM   #173
Dky
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Did anyone see this post: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Hemo DPS Higher than Full Combat for Raids ?
I was wondering exactly how valid his math is.

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Old 06/08/08, 4:53 AM   #174
kargathia
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Kargathia
Night Elf Rogue
 
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Originally Posted by Dky View Post
Did anyone see this post: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Hemo DPS Higher than Full Combat for Raids ?
I was wondering exactly how valid his math is.
This is the state of hemo before the 2.3.2 nerf, where a trispec indeed looked a little like it might produce more raiddps, right now hemo is nerfed to 110% weapon damage in a trispec, which let's the viability end about the time you are entering TK/SSC.

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Old 06/08/08, 9:21 AM   #175
 gwystyl
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Ysera
Ah, so Provendor = Chhybrid. Good to know. I don't think the incremental 400 armor pen translates into 300 dps, though.
:-P

Back on point, though. Would it be absolutely the end of the world if Blizzard would allow rogues to ignore the glancing blow damage reduction? It was already been pointed out in this thread. It doesn't affect pvp whatsoever and would be a very simple way to get our damage back up where it needs to be. This has to be paired with something we can do to raise the threat ceiling, though, because I'm already flirting with the 107% threat line and if you pair this with the suggestion to modify Feint to be more like Misdirect, you have something that could really benefit the raid.

You'd have rogues losing some damage due to having Feint in a cycle, and in exchange the raid benefits from a higher threat ceiling. If one rogue is insufficient to keep this up, you bring 2 to do it. This loss is offset by eliminating glancing blows for rogues and you have a net damage gain *with* raid utility.

The few aggro-sensitive tank-switch fights that Blizzard is sure to want to employ can find a way to work around this, or build rogues in as an intended mechanic to make tank transitions easier.

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Old 06/08/08, 3:19 PM   #176
Wynna
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Provendor View Post
As we know, Rodemboo has since stopped raiding.
He transfered to Trans with a bunch of other former Catalyst members. The World of Warcraft Armory

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Old 06/10/08, 5:15 AM   #177
Prinsesa
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Echo Isles
I have a question regarding Rogue terminology:

I know that 2-4s/5r means "Slice and Dice anytime between 2 to 4 combo points, then Rupture at 5 combo points", but what does the "5-" part mean when the spreadsheet's recommended cycle is "2-4s/5-5r"?

I've tried searching the Think Tank Rogue article, but didn't find anything.

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Old 06/10/08, 5:19 AM   #178
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Seal Fate cycle notation, as given by the DPS Spreadsheet, indicates a minimum and maximum CP for each finisher. Thus, 5-5 means that you use Rupture at a minimum of 5 CP.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 06/10/08, 10:18 AM   #179
hannigaholic
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Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by Provendor View Post
Being one of those rogues on that "Top 15" you'd have to take into account the way people stack their groups. My achievement was done about almost 2 months ago and still remains up there. Right after I topped the chart we stopped doing the fight that way because it required too much time/effort to stack the raid that way. As we know, Rodemboo has since stopped raiding. Thus these numbers are practically useless. As stated it is much easier to stack a raid group for the Brutallus fight that for Hunters than it is for Rogues. Catalyst was one of the few that continued to do the encounter in this fashion until they stopped raiding. For the Hunters that are topping the meter now, they probably run Brutallus with their normal raid setups. Stacking a fight for a rogue to maximize DPS has at this point become much more difficult and unnecessary in light of the new Hunter figures. It is this fact that the synergy required to make the rogue "head and shoulders above" is so difficult at this stage that worries the rogues about the new upcoming talents and skills. However as yet without insight into WOTLK we cannot make any judgements. Yes I believe that rogues should be able to top damage meters now (especially since they bring no synergy to the group their in and require so much more to do that top damage), but like stated above we have no idea what Blizzard has in mind for us. We can only hope that some decent people get into Beta to fight on our behalf.
Speaking personally, the whole issue of rogue scaling is problematic. On the one hand, it's annoying that rogues are forced to rely on having raids stacked for them in order to do competitive dps (without a shaman in your group you instantly lose 15% of your dps). On the other hand, rogues having higher base damage could prove overpowered in PvP, since we wouldn't be relying on buffs to do devestating dps. Seing as how it's other melee who currently bring our most potent buffs (and thus they suffer far less from this problem than rogues do), I feel that the best way to address rogue scaling would be to give rogues a similar group buff function.

I would love to see rogues bringing a benefit even when we're not specced Hemo. Perhaps have Combat Potency procs restore energy, mana or rage to all group members, even if this feature was a talent high in the Combat tree. I'd also like to see Hemo work on a percentage basis (even if it's just 1-2% addition) so that it's useful for the entirety of the raiding progression, rather than eventually getting completely outclasses by Combat. I'd also like it to lose its charges. This would then leave Mutilate. A simple solution would be for Find Weakness to simply apply to your whole group, and work on all damage, not just specials (maybe that last part should only apply for the rogue).

It would no longer matter if rogues didn't have the top dps, since we'd be buffing everybody in our group, no matter our spec, except for Hemo, which would still do less personal dps but would provide even more raidwide dps than it currently does.

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Old 06/10/08, 11:46 AM   #180
Feist-Mok
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Ysera
Making the hemorrhage buff work in the same manner as blood frenzy (and maybe even not letting them stack) would also be workable here, no? Simple, gives warriors a bit more freedom of spec (you bring one for MS/BF or a rogue for hemo/wound and the value to your raid is essentially interchangable.)

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