WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Rogue Update, probably.

The catch-all posted right before the first round of changes for Rogues:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Rogue Update

I stand corrected.

For #2, my napkin math reasoning had totally forgotten about the "extra attacks" from +haste can still crit, while the "exta attacks landing" from +hit do not. So, in that regard, when considering only white damage, at the hit/expertise cap, haste will be strictly better than hit because of the chance for extra attacks to crit, meaning the inflection happens somewhere before the hit cap for pure white damage. With effects that proc on crits, I can easily see things going further.

For #3, pleading ignorance here. Sorry I must have missed the part about IP crits being only affected by crit-rating

Would someone mind pointing me to threads related to level 70 talents/gear with WOTLK talents?

I've read the thread nut I only see WOTLK and people talking about Arms warriors and pallies. I have also tried searching but there is really no good search tags for this query. Perhaps it would have been smart to seperate the threads!

Thanks in advance.

It's in here, but it's mixed in some and somewhat hard to find. Searching might work, but if not, here's a summary of what I remember (not necesarily correct, but I sure hope so for my sake):

Sinister Strike Combat currently stands slightly below mutilate. The currently accepted build at 70 I believe is 5/51/5. For stat weightings, etc., consult a spreadsheet that has the new talents, as I haven't looked into it that much. I'm not sure about the relative rankings of Sword/Sword, Fist/Sword, Fist/Dagger, Fist/Fist, and so on.

Mutilate currently stands as top DPS. The currently accepted build is 51/5/5. Weapon choice is currently Slow MH, Fast OH, with DP/IP as the poisons, and Envenom as the CttC finisher of choice. Again, I'm not too sure about stat weights and such.

Combat Daggers remains below Sinister Strike Combat, and I believe the current best spec for it is 13/51/7. Anyone with daggers should probably go for Mutilate anyway.

Subtlety is still inferior for PVE DPS and feels unfinished.

Unbuffed testing on the Beta for a lvl70 rogue gave me Mutilate being 300dps more than Combat Swords (1300 to 1600) on the lvl70 mechanical dummy in Ironforge.

I did 6 rounds of 10 minutes of testing (3 of each) after I spent some time working out what my rotations should look like.

I'm expecting combat swords to do better with the raid buffs (haste in particular should help CS a lot more than mutilate), but I was very surprised by the difference between the 2 builds.

This was semi-scientific, and I just used Recount and took the final DPS figure after 10 minutes, and I'm also not used to the new rotations as yet, so I'd expect to get better over time.

[e] Using Vulajins spreadsheets I am to expect Combat Swords to be 3194 and Mutilate to be 3062 when raid buffed with my gear. So, I must confess to being very surprised by those results.

I saw no active buff, but as the dummy stayed at 100% you're giving me some great insight into what is happening.

Comparing my raw numbers to the spreadsheet numbers, Combat Swords was 200dps lower, and Mutilate was 100dps higher.

If we make some coarse assumptions, my unbuffed crit rate is about 30%, so we can napkinmath increase my DPS by 6% and get about 1400dps. So, still a difference of 200dps. I'll give it another run today, but there is always the fact that I might just suck which is skewing the results.

[e] It appears that my suckage is a contributing factor. After spending even more time beating a dummy (another couple of hours) I'm much better at the beating up an immobile object and as a result, Mutilate 1580, Combat Swords 1480. It appears that my initial Mutilate beating was subject to a lucky RNG.

Something that I neglected to add was that I don't have _any_ glyphs installed, which will also make CS somewhat better, as they glyphs (from memory) are better for CS than for Mutilate.

Our guild did a PTR raid tonight, and besides breezing through SWP, we got some insight on dps numbers, I think.

WOW Meter Online - More logs!!!!!!

I was mutilate 51/5/5, 3/5 Relentless and 2/2 Opportunity, although I'll be testing 5/5 Relentless sometime because I think it'll lead to less cycles issues. I ran into multiple instances of having to re-Envenom (not always at 5 stacks) rather than rupture so that I would refresh SnD.

Voorhees is 5/51/5 with dual glaives. He has Savage Combat, I did not have master poisoner, I went 3/3 TtT instead. Both of us have a SnD glyph.

Not sure what exactly happened on Brut (no CoR or FF but it can't account for everything), we had a parse last week on the PTR where I did almost 3400 dps and Voorhees was up almost over 3600 (this was before the latest build and the buffs to combat). Obviously the whole instance felt simplistic. M'uru didn't last past 3 waves of adds, KJ was into the next phase 8-10 seconds after the first shield of each dragon.

All in all, I'm happy with mutilate, although I'd really like to see relentless be brought down to 3 points for an even 5 spent in Sub for Mutilate spec. It is going to really take some time to get used to not refreshing SnD when it gets low and instead timing my envenoms+HfB refreshes well, but I enjoy the change of style.

Quick edit: I just realized Voorhees was running dual deadly the whole night and didn't say anything about getting some instant from either of us. Not sure how considerable the poison damage is for a combat spec with no poison talents, but I'm sure it's not unsubstantial with the new ap scaling.

This is what I've found as well. I tried both 3/5 : 2/2 and 5/5 0/2, and found that with 5/5 it was definitely easier to keep my cycles without a mad panic.

Could someone actually show the builds in a talent calculator? Particularly the mutilate one. I've been trying to figure out exactly what talents to take for raid dps and I'm having a hard time figuring out which ones to take in Assassination. The tree has a lot of fun stuff in it. This is what I came up with so maybe you could tell me if it's on the right track. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I was not able to read for a few days, so I maybe lost the plot.

A few days ahead, someone mentioned that "Vigor" raises enrgy-reg from 10 to 11 per second - seemed logical to me by regenerating 10% energy per second.

Was anybody able to confirm that? (If so "Vigor" seems to be a nice talent.)

I would take 2/2 Quick Recovery or 2/2 Fleet Footed instead of Ruthlessness with the other point in whatever of those two you didn't max. With an Envenom Cut to the Chase rotation, Ruthlessness becomes unnecessary and the spreadsheets back this by only awarding you about 6 dps for all 3 pts. Quick Recovery or Fleet Tooted increase dps by more. QR is reflected in the spreadsheets while Fleet Footed is backed by a post Aldrianna made somewhere a while back. Its benefit is only apparent in fights with movement as it increases dps uptime.

Everything I've heard from my buddy/class leader of my guild who's on beta, leads me to believe in practice, 3/5 RS gives you too many issues with your cycle at first as you're getting used to the new cycle and playstyle that I'm probably going to start with 5/5 RS and only after I'm comfortable with the cycle will I reduce points and add them to Opportunity. My buddy runs a combat build on live and I've been Mutilate the entirety of BC so I expect to be able to go to 3/5 RS rather quickly though.

The build I'm going with after the patch is:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

Wrong thread.
Luckily, because I already started doubting my sanity as for the life I could not find the according posting in this thread, but I simply knew I read it somewhere.

It's in the Roguecraft thread:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t27244-r...p9/#post918376

And no, it didn't prove true.

When did Slow MH, Fast OH become the best? I still get "The faster the better" from the spreadsheets. Did something change?

Another thing on Envenom cycles. Did anyone test the viability of Envenoming right after losing the Envenom Buff to achieve a 100% uptime of the +15% to poison application? Aldriana said a couple of posts back that we perform a finisher about once every 10 seconds. Depending on the cycle, that means a lot of downtime.

Maybe it would be viable to envenom with even only 1 CP just to refresh the poison application buff for more IP procs. Maybe it wouldn't be worth it, anyone with some thoughts on that matter? Off the top of my head, i could think of a 5s/1e/5r/1e cycle or something to that effect using a Mutilate build, so every second finisher would be an Envenom to get the 15% increased IP application rate.

Viable or not?

I would say not.

A 1 CP Envenom only gives you 2 seconds of increased poison application at the cost of vastly decreased DPS/E and CP/E.
Using small CP finishers decreases the chance of RS procs, finishers are badly scaled for low CP usage and, in the case of Envenom, you are getting lower uptime and stacking for DP.

In reverse order,
the roguecraft sheet is effectively the only sheet at the moment, as Aldriana has not been updating his for sometime and it does not reflect wotlk talents/changes.

And that looks basicly fine, but what is it for? If it's for raiding, i.e. post 3.0 patch, drop Unfair Advantage for imp kick or imp sprint imo. Depends on the content you do I suppose, but I tend to like these as opposed to a on-dodge ability that shouldn't happen in the raid environment. If it's for soloing come wotlk, I would tend to suggest making more use of unfair advantage with points in LR, and going for riposte in a similar vein has been suggested.

There must be something I don't grasp, but I fail to see how +hit is better than +haste for pure white hits.
1 % hit means that 1 % more attacks will land rather than miss.
1 % haste means that you'll make 1 % more attacks.
As long as your critical strike chances are larger than your "not landing" (miss + dodge + parry) chances, it seems that haste is in fact superior to hit (as the 1 % more attacks have more statistical chances to make double damages than to do 0 damage, which make the average value of the attack higher).

I'm not really good at math, so I'm probably missing something here, but from what I see, haste seems at least equal to hit.

If I remember correctly Aldriana posted about this in quite some detail, here in this thread.

Fast MH with IP and an OH with DP. The reason for this, according to Aldriana, is that your MH weapon counts for poison hits on finishers and you want your fastest weapon to have IP on it.
You want your highest DPS weapon in your OH if it is not the fastest.
There is some evidence to suggest that the best MH Mutilate weapon is [Edge of Oppression] from Heroic Magisters Terrace because it is the best 1.3 speed dagger currently available. Vulajin's spreadsheet did not confirm this as of last week because it did not support this weapon being wielded in your MH.
With the Badge MH and Edge of Oppression OH (DP on MH, IP on OH) there was an increase in DPS compared to [Messenger of Fate] OH according to the sheet. If Aldriana is right then swapping the weapons around would improve DPS further.

Things may have changed since that post although I haven't seen any talent changes since then that would cause them to.

I really hope this gets implemented for itemization sake. Great idea. I feel 5 energy would be a good compromise between the 2-3 for both hands they have tried.

Hello!

Like many other rogues I'm really looking forward to giving Mutilate a go when we get the new talents soon. I have done hours of testing on the target dummies on the PTR to get used to and experiment with speccs.

However, there is one thing that I've found in my tests that I don't understand. You have to excuse my ignorance if it should be common knowledge, but if it is, then I haven't been able to find it. And so far through "my career" I've played Combat Swords almost exclusively so I haven't really been particular interested in the "poison procc chance" so far. And that's what my question is about.

Allright, let me get to the question:

If I equip 2 daggers of the same speed and autoattack only, my poison application chance is the same on both hands. Around 30%. No surprise so far. I've tested with Instant Poisons to make it simple to track in Recount btw.

Now, when I start using Mutilate my poison procc chance rises dramatically on my OH dagger while remaining around the 30% on my MH dagger. So my conclusion have to be that your OH dagger is much more likely to procc a poison than your MH dagger when performing a Mutilate attack.

What game mechanic is it that increases the chance to procc poisons from the OH from Mutilate attacks?

I haven't been able to find the "formula" that describes what I'm seeing when testing. Nor is it described in the tooltip or on wowwiki that there is a much higher chance to procc the OH poison when performing a Mutilate.
I suppose you guys know it since it seems to be commonly accepted that you should coat your OH with Instant Poison and your MH with Deadly Poison. I suppose its for that very reason you recommend it? Else there would really be no reason why to apply deadly/instant or instant/deadly (given same speed dagger and exclusively using Mutilate as CP builder)?
Yet this understanding have eluded me. I can't find it described anywhere that when Mutilating, your OH dagger is much more likely to procc its poison than the MH.

Would someone care to direct me to where I can find the formula for how exactly poison application chance is for either of your weapons from the Mutilate attack?

Since poisons are becomming such a big part of our damage I'd like to know exactly how the chance to procc a poison can be affected, if at all.

Thanks for a very nice forum btw. I've spend many hours here in this particular thread lately.

I hope I'm not making too much of a fool of myself with this post

Edit:
Obviously post 3047 contradicts to what I thought you guys recommended: IP on OH and DP on MH. Nevertheless it doesn't change my question.

My other frequently played level 70 character is a paladin (who is usually either holy or prot - I also have a shaman, who hasn't been played since it hit 70). Ret paladins will all have Heart of the Crusader. It's a Tier 2 talent. It really doesn't have reasonable alternatives and most will want it for the times they are not in raids.

At 70, ret paladins with the new talents are amazing. Ridiculously so. At 80, this is proving to be less true (they're not bad, just not amazing), but guilds that have ret paladins are still likely to have those players raid. We had ours raid primarily for the 3% crit debuff before and because he has always kept up in DPS. Elemental shaman are pretty much the suck. We only had one and he's rolling moonkin for xpac. Mutilate rogues have to give up DPS talents elsewhere to take Master Poisoner. Logical choice for any raid is ret paladin, unless you don't have them or they're not good players. If that's the case, then logical choice is mutilate rogue (without close quarters combat probably, maybe without murder and blood poisoning, depends on other talents and raid content).

On the physical damage debuff from Savage Combat/Blood Frenzy, the first question to ask is how many people in the raid do physical damage because most guilds are going to be comparing a mutilate rogue to a combat rogue. Therefore, the consideration is how much damage loss is there to switch to combat and is that offset by the increase in overall raid physical damage from combat. If there is a ret paladin, probably yes. If there is no ret paladin or elemental shaman, there's not really a question that the rogue would be mutilate with Master Poisoner. There aren't that many raiding arms warriors. Most guilds will have their choice of DPS classes when making up a 10-man raid, as those are the classes that will mostly be left behind when you're missing the 5 extra slots from a 25-man. We commonly have 5 dps sitting out 25-mans anyway now, sometimes 10.