I am pretty sure it is any target that you have poisoned since its a bonus that debuffs the target for everyone's benefit. If it was any poison and not one the rogue applied, there wouldn't be any realistic way to apply that effect.
Edit: already replyed in between the time it took me to refresh then post...

I've been seeing a lot of questions regarding what speed MH to use, and the answer I've found using edited spreadsheets is "it depends."

Obviously there's a big advantage to a 1.3 dagger in the main, but it won't always be the the end-all/be-all since there's a number of tradeoffs. The biggest one is in pure Ilvl. The [Edge of Oppression] is only Ilvl 115, compared to other viable mainhands such as [Messenger of Fate] (Ilvl 141), or [Fang of Kalecgos] (Ilvl 154). Both of those come with more raw DPS, more stats, and slightly bigger Mutilates. You also can't ignore the stat allocation--weapons stacked with more AGI and AP also have a slightly bigger advantage.

So the best bet is to plug it in the spreadsheet. Here's how you do it (in Excel):

1. Unhide the MH and OH sheets.
(Format -> Sheet -> Unhide)

2. Copy the appropriate row from the OH sheet.
(select the full row by clicking the row number on the far left)

3. Paste it into the MH sheet by highlighting the full row where you want it to go. I highly recommend keeping it in alphabetical order since you need to insert into the existing rows anyway. Right click->"Insert Copied Cells"

Admittedly I haven't played too much with different daggers in the spreadsheet since the build that brought all the buffs to combat but try [Fang of Kalecgos]/[Edge of Oppression] for starters and have fun.

You often can not overwrite rupture, do to temporary buffs, and your rupture scaling with ap, you often are in situations where a newer rupture is less powerful than one ready to expire. I think 3 finisher cycles will be more 'normal' in wotlk.

See, that's what I thought. I was pretty certain you got an error when you tried to "refresh" rupture, and were locked out until it finished.

I did a bunch of testing earlier with the recommended rotation where you nail HfB when it's about to expire, and you nail envenom when SnD is about to expire, 4+ point combos. I *did* see an increase in dps of about 30-40 when I finally got the logic down, but a Rupture that lasts slightly longer than SnD is just a cruel joke. That's going to be yet one more thing that's "off-timed". Could you integrate it? Sure. Is it worth it?

I'm thinking that the level of complexity and logic necessary to keep up a maximum possible damage rotation is beginning to surpass the raidworthiness of the endeavor. I can't imagine worrying about 6 different widely changing variable conditions on a boss fight with frequent movement. Not for 30-40 dps when a rotation an order of magnitude easier to maintain and bring back up at a moments notice during transition exists. And I seriously hope blizzard isn't expecting us to do contortionist rotations in order to maintain the same single target dps as other classes when a retadin has a two button rotation. It's getting silly. I'm still not seeing an enormous increase in dps at level 70 over putting 6 points in sub, and specing out of HfB entirely now that I'm doing the same 4+ rotation with that spec. It's still within 50ish dps. If you don't believe me, try it. You lose 9 percent damage, but you gain 1-2 mutilates per cycle and much smoother dps. I'm thinking there's some optimal rotation, probably a three finisher, that will become clear. I find it hard to believe the current buff dance is the expected procedure to maintain single target dps with other classes. If it's the path to being top single target dps again, that would be fair and a worthy effort. I'm going to at least try.

This is not 100% correct. You can't apply a debuff with a lower value than a current debuff. So, if your rupture was applied with a +AP proc that had occurred, then you can't apply a newer rupture with a lower "value per tick".

However, you can over-write a rupture with a longer rupture of the same "value per tick". (Exactly what Wodahs was saying)

The "merely" 50 DPS loss from not having HfB at level 70 gear without buffs turns into ~225+ (or ~4.7%+) DPS loss at 80 w/ Naxx gear and raid buffs (assuming you trade the 1 point for CQC). That's a pretty significant loss of damage.

Honestly, I really like the way Mutilate plays in raids on Beta. It's substantially more interesting than running 5s/5r all day, and the complexity of running the cycle effectively is what will also cause further separation separation between the truly extraordinary players and the merely "pretty good" players, which I don't think is a bad thing.

As for Ret Pallys, I'll admit I haven't played one, but I think you're oversimplfying it by saying they hit 2 buttons the whole time. On Patchwerk parses I see them hitting at least 5-6 abiltiies in their DPS rotation.

So, the solution to your proposed scenario where you can't overwrite an existing Rupture, and you're good on SnD and HfB is dependent on how much time is left on your Rupture. If it's <5s, just pool your energy until then. If it's more than that, then there may be some merit to just doing another Envenom, building CP for a Rupture again, and by then you should be good on a Rupture.

Also, time off target is actually one of HfB's strength. There's not much cost for refreshing your HfB when on the run, assuming you were going to cap out on energy anyways (which you'll have happen on 4h, for instance).

Aren't there other sites for flaming between classes?
Let's get back on track please. I couldn't care less than whether a paladin or rogue has the most complex cycle..

Edit:
Can anyone else but me please confirm that Mutilate (the attack itself) does have a much higher chance to procc your OH poison than your MH poison? That is what I'm experiencing on PTR unless I'm reading data from my tests wrong.

And if you can confirm that wouldn't it lead to the conclusion that you ought to put Instant poison on your OH and Deadly on your MH for max dps, provided that your MH applies deadly fast enough for your cycles? (I guess that conclusion also is based on your weapons being of equal or close to equal speed, but at the moment it does seem like fast daggers are the best)

ZING!

In a vain attempt to bring this thread back on track I'll ask a noobish question about the 51/5/5 build that's been bugging me. I'm slightly concerned that popping HfB isn't worth the GCD/energy in most situations: it seems to me that the only times it would be optimal to push the HfB button are when:

1. The rogue is out of melee range of the boss, for example when dodging Azgalor's Rain of Fire or Supremus' volcanoes;
2. The rogue has a bleed debuff.

Will anyone disagree with me on this, and why? Maybe there's a situation where the rogue has a gap in their cycle due to a cooldown or buff expiry and has the energy spare? Maybe it's worth building into the cycle to keep it fully up at all times?

HfB is a buff you stack before pulls, and maintain during fights. It's a 9% increase to all damage that only costs 30 energy every 25-28 seconds (refreshing every 3 or so cycles). Not using it or letting it drop during combat nerfs your damage output heavily and penalizes you 90 energy to re-stack it. It's definitely worth the GCD to maintain it.

Certainly it's use in PvP is different and refreshing it while out of range of your target is preferable. But it's not really 'part of the cycle'. It is a buff that you must maintain through energy pooling and smart management.

During my testing I never had the situation where I didn't have enough energy to perfom a HfB rebuff.
Surely, it did drop a few times, but that was me trying to do it too perfect, i.e. refreshing when it has reached 0 on my NeedToKnow bar, or simply noticing too late that it was running out and then having to deal with an unexpected and unfamiliar situation.

Though most of the time I had enough energy and SnD time to refresh HfB before refreshing SnD, or directly afterwards. After a while you get a feeling if you'll manage to do it in time and then you could even decide to refresh it early if it helps you maintaining your cycle.

Of course this was against a level 60 target, a boss level with its increased miss, dodge and reduced crit may work out differently, although some of it will be compensated by the then available raid buffs.

Also I wonder how you think that 9% increased damage is not worth 30 energy / 30 seconds.
And GCD is a non-issue, really.

hiho

I just don't understand why 51/5/5 and not 51/3/7
Isn't the 100% 5cp 25 Energy refund more worthy than 20% more offhand white autoattack damage ?

Questions:

Are haste effects (Windfury Totem, SnD, Ret Aura) cumulative or multiplicative?

Are bonuses from Lethality and Prey on the Weak cumulative or multiplicative?

Is Instant Poison and Deadly Poison AP bonuses normalized currently? If so at what speed? Or do they just go by your current wpn spd?

Is the Hemo dmg add (+42 dmg @ 70) affected by Crit, Lethality, and other bonuses? or is it a flat dmg after everything is said and done? Is it diminished based on armor mitigation as well?

Well yes...but (if I'm not mistaken) you're looking at it the wrong way. 51/5/5 spends the 5 points in Subtelty in Relentless Strikes not 2 in Opportunity and 3 in Relentless Strikes.

So, in that balance, 20% more offhand damage (not only auto-attack as it does affect your Mutilate damage aswell) is worth more than 20% mutilate damage.

I believe I know the answer to two of your questions. The others I'm not really sure.

Haste effects are multiplicative.

Poison damage is not normalized as far as I know. It didn't use to be and I haven't read anything that states otherwise in the PTR. That was mentioned as a good suggestion to try and get slow MH weapons as the best choice, but currently we haven't seen any hints that it is going to happen.

Ok, not exactly 30 seconds, you'd encounter what I have described above with "too perfect".
Besides from that, yeah, if you have already 3 stacks of HfB, you just have to renew it before it expires to keep on going with 3 stacks. Basically like Deadly Poison.


I'd like to know some of these as well, especially haste effects and crit boni.
I guess you could take a look at the Roguecraft spreadsheet, but have these things really been tested or just assumed?

• As for haste, talents that increase by a percentage normally increase multiplicative (SnD), while trinkets etc. that increase haste rating are additive.
• The crit bonus from Lethality and other sources (i.e. RED) is a science of its own, I still haven't fully understood why it is calculated like it is (and I could never remember it).
  This is the formula from the Roguecraft sheet:
  CRIT MULTIPLIER = (2 * 1.03 [RED] * 1.04 [MURDER] * 1.05 [TROLL BEAST SLAYING] * 1.2 [POTW] -1) * 1.3 [LETHALITY] +1
• Instant and Deadly Poison are not normalized in any way so far.
• Hemo is affected by everything, crit, lethality, armor, etc.

Windfury, snd, bladeflurry are all multiplicative, but haste rating is additive (such as haste added by gear, dst, warglaives, etc)

Instant poison is not normalized and that's why fast weapons are so good for it right now.

As for your other questions, I don't feel that I'm qualified to answer them.

Again, simply Rupture + Envenom will not work assuming you have both the SnD and the Rupture glyph. The cycle becomes more like Rupture + Envenom + Envenom.

And yes, the best use of HfB is to just watch the timer. Forget about a rotation and just hit it when it's <4s.

Aldriana, i know you gave your thoughts on the trinkets that had been discovered in game about 30 pages ago or so. Do you have any thoughts on Mark of Norgannon (from Malygos, Equip 69 Expertise, 2 minute on use effect of increasing haste by 491 for 20 seconds) as compared to the other trinkets that have been uncovered in Wrath so far. I caveat this question by acknowledging that the relative value of these trinkets will certainly vary based on one's gear.

I link the Wowhead comparison of the 6 highest item level melee trinkets thus far (including the Mark from Malygos 25).

I think it is helpful as people focus on their gearing priorities (especially those in guilds with DKP as a system) to realize as far in advance as possible which trinket might become the DST of WotLK (i.e., take it as soon as you can because who knows how long you'll be doing Gruul).

As far as I know, and I'm sure someone that knows more than I will correct me if I'm wrong on this, Instant Poison and Deadly Poison have fixed AP coefficents that can be modified with talents but are independant of weapon speed. The percentage chance to proc either poison is also a fixed base percent that can also be modified by talents and is independant of weapon speed. So given fixed hit, crit, AP, and expertise values in a given talent build poisons will always deal the same average damage at the same average percentage proc rate per swing reguardless of what weapons are being used.

The whole situation now with assn builds reminds me of a parallel with mage raiding in TBC. At one level of gear, using arcane blast cycles was the way to achieve optimal dps, but their rotations were vastly more complex than a fire rotation to the point that all but very good players would see reduced dps. That eventually changed by the time people were raiding BT, so for all we know people in Lich King gear might revert back to ss, snd, and rupture due to scalin, set bonuses, whatever.

That is a good point Leto. Blizz is obviously trying to add more variables to the equation such that things are not nearly as clear cut as to what is 'best', at least not all the time. Naturally that comes with more talents and the addition of glyphs, but they are pushing it by design choices as well.

A recent GC (the Blue) comment said they were trying VERY hard to make it difficult to assess one talent as 'better' than another when they are in direct competition. All of this points to what has it's pros and cons. A spec that is 'the best' at T7 is very likely to not be the best at T9, and not just that blatant, but to the point that a simple Glyph change coupled with 1 or 2 items of gear being enough to change the 'optimal spec'. This has always been somewhat possible in our current game, but the vast more variables added by Wrath look to be working towards this happening many more times for characters than it did in TBC. I found that inflection point only 1 time in TBC, I suspect it may happen as many as 5 times in Wrath. It is hard to lock down that number for exactly the same reasons as the number has gone up, but if Blizz is successful in their efforts it definitely is going to go up it seems.

Again, I'm not just speaking ASSN ... but for all DPS trees and classes in general. If you think about it, Glyphs are like adding 3 Libram/Totem slots for everyone. Spells/abilities that might have been less efficient than another, or needed max rank before you got said Libram/Totem in TBC became primary at times once you got the right item, or hit the right haste amount, etc. Now add 3 slots for those to every class, and you can see how the variability in our equations jumps exponentially over the life of our toon (in a given expansion). This sheds some light to GC's comment about the problem with rogue balancing is that they are too mathy. I now think what she really meant is they don't like how quickly our friends here pump out a spreadsheet that say "take this spec, the rest is junk, move on" within days of a release. I think Blizz wants the system to be complex enough that only they know what is "exactly" the maximum amount of damage a group can do, or at least to make it take a LOT longer for us to figure out.

Ideally that means a lot more options are competitive for players (Blizz stated goal of all these changes to the game), and that is a good thing, but the proof is in the pudding as we say.

Well, strictly speaking the "Dragonspine Trophy" of WotLK is Meteorite Whetstone.

However, Meteorite Whetstone appears to have a 45s internal cooldown, as opposed to DST's 20s internal cooldown, so it's not quite as impressive as it is at first glance.

One thing to note about "on use" trinkets is that they're more useful for combat builds than assassination ones. With a 2m cooldown you can tie it to your Blade Flurry button, and get more value out of it. That being said, 69 expertise rating is quite a lot, but the overall value of the trinket will depend on how much of that expertise you need. There's a lot more expertise on gear this time around, and you can gem for it, so there is a greater chance that some of that expertise will be wasted. However, it you can use all of the expertise it may be the best trinket.

I'd definitely say Fury of the Five Flights is up there though. You should get it to stack up pretty early in any fight, and you're looking at a constant 320 AP assuming you stay in continuous combat.

After that, it's probably either Mirror of Truth or Bandit's Insignia. Both trinkets appear to have internal cooldowns, though further testing needs to be done (I have both on Beta). I'm almost certain Bandit's Insignia's internal cooldown is 45s.

As for Mirror of Truth, I'm not quite as sure what the cooldown is, but I can say that on 100% melee uptime fights I'm seeing an overall Mirror of Truth uptime of 16-20%, which would put the trinket's value at approximately 84 cr, 180 AP. However this uptime will scale somewhat as your crit chance increases.

After that it's likely Loatheb's Shadow, and finally Grim Toll.

Though it's hard to say for certain until we accurately model all of the trinkets.

I really don't see a 9% flat DPS boost that's HfB really ever being outscaled. It's arguably per point the best scaling talent we currently have. Outside of there being a huge weapon advantage (Legendary swords again), I really don't see anything that would cause Assassination to fall by the wayside. I'm pretty sure you are going to see Assassination and Combat both be viable through most of the expansion, and I'd be very surprised (and disappointed) if they let either of the specs get overwhelmingly surpassed.