I really don't see a 9% flat DPS boost that's HfB really ever being outscaled. It's arguably per point the best scaling talent we currently have. Outside of there being a huge weapon advantage (Legendary swords again), I really don't see anything that would cause Assassination to fall by the wayside. I'm pretty sure you are going to see Assassination and Combat both be viable through most of the expansion, and I'd be very surprised (and disappointed) if they let either of the specs get overwhelmingly surpassed.
It'd be pretty difficult for HfB to ever be outscaled, since it's completely independent of how much DPS you're actually doing and only depends on how much of your damage comes from Mutilate as opposed to other sources. For HfB to be not worth using, you'd have to see Mutilate at 45-55% of your total damage, which would require a dramatic shift in mechanics which we're unlikely to see. Simply gearing up will never cause that great of a change.
I really don't see a 9% flat DPS boost that's HfB really ever being outscaled. It's arguably per point the best scaling talent we currently have. Outside of there being a huge weapon advantage (Legendary swords again), I really don't see anything that would cause Assassination to fall by the wayside. I'm pretty sure you are going to see Assassination and Combat both be viable through most of the expansion, and I'd be very surprised (and disappointed) if they let either of the specs get overwhelmingly surpassed.
I'd agree, but things are so "mathy" as GC puts it that a 1.3 speed dagger from a heroic is one of our top dps MH weapons on PTR. I anticipate them fixing that if they have time. I just hope it's with an algorithm tweak rather than a probable speed based rule "No dagger under 1.5 in mainhand!" or actually changing the stats on all fast daggers to Offhand Only. The reason being, I don't like that my shiny wipe creating toothpick from Illidan is outdps'd by the Blade of Serration with this build. Shouldn't be that way. *sniff*
I mean come on. Combat shiv? Rather than making HfB overly complicated, they should have worked on fixing the problems with the actual mechanics making such strange things possible.
I really don't see a 9% flat DPS boost that's HfB really ever being outscaled. It's arguably per point the best scaling talent we currently have. Outside of there being a huge weapon advantage (Legendary swords again), I really don't see anything that would cause Assassination to fall by the wayside. I'm pretty sure you are going to see Assassination and Combat both be viable through most of the expansion, and I'd be very surprised (and disappointed) if they let either of the specs get overwhelmingly surpassed.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying that it will happen, or that I even think it will, but things definitely change, talents are rebalanced according to different situations, new items come up that change the way we think about specs, and so on.
With mages for example, the dominant spec change came about from the 2 piece T5 bonus, then changed when the 4 piece T6 bonus was enough to counter it in a different spec.
I was struck by a thought while reading the last 10 pages or so. The whole debate on 1.3 speed daggers being best for MH Mutilate brings to mind memories of Barman Shanker runs for the 2.0 speed best in MH weapon back in the day...(never did get one to drop). If I remember right, Blizz never intended for a blue dagger to be best in slot over epics, and they nerfed the crap out of us with weapon speed normalization to fix it. Now I see a heroic 5-man dagger being best in slot over stuff that drops from end game/tier raids and I want to duck because I feel the nerf bat is on the way.
Does anyone else think that they will apply some sort of "normalization" to poison damage, thus nerfing Mutilate back behind combat? Is there a way to do it without the massive collateral damage to other talents?
I was struck by a thought while reading the last 10 pages or so. The whole debate on 1.3 speed daggers being best for MH Mutilate brings to mind memories of Barman Shanker runs for the 2.0 speed best in MH weapon back in the day...(never did get one to drop). If I remember right, Blizz never intended for a blue dagger to be best in slot over epics, and they nerfed the crap out of us with weapon speed normalization to fix it. Now I see a heroic 5-man dagger being best in slot over stuff that drops from end game/tier raids and I want to duck because I feel the nerf bat is on the way.
Does anyone else think that they will apply some sort of "normalization" to poison damage, thus nerfing Mutilate back behind combat? Is there a way to do it without the massive collateral damage to other talents?
Ok, you are blizzard and scrub gear is leading dps in mainhand do you....
1) Change the item stats
2) Address the game mechanics by making a more intelligent algorithm
3) Nerf poisons
4) Create a "poison resilience" stat that all bosses and mobs have
5) Conway Twitty
That is a good point Leto. Blizz is obviously trying to add more variables to the equation such that things are not nearly as clear cut as to what is 'best', at least not all the time. Naturally that comes with more talents and the addition of glyphs, but they are pushing it by design choices as well.
A recent GC (the Blue) comment said they were trying VERY hard to make it difficult to assess one talent as 'better' than another when they are in direct competition. All of this points to what has it's pros and cons. A spec that is 'the best' at T7 is very likely to not be the best at T9, and not just that blatant, but to the point that a simple Glyph change coupled with 1 or 2 items of gear being enough to change the 'optimal spec'. This has always been somewhat possible in our current game, but the vast more variables added by Wrath look to be working towards this happening many more times for characters than it did in TBC. I found that inflection point only 1 time in TBC, I suspect it may happen as many as 5 times in Wrath. It is hard to lock down that number for exactly the same reasons as the number has gone up, but if Blizz is successful in their efforts it definitely is going to go up it seems.
Again, I'm not just speaking ASSN ... but for all DPS trees and classes in general. If you think about it, Glyphs are like adding 3 Libram/Totem slots for everyone. Spells/abilities that might have been less efficient than another, or needed max rank before you got said Libram/Totem in TBC became primary at times once you got the right item, or hit the right haste amount, etc. Now add 3 slots for those to every class, and you can see how the variability in our equations jumps exponentially over the life of our toon (in a given expansion). This sheds some light to GC's comment about the problem with rogue balancing is that they are too mathy. I now think what she really meant is they don't like how quickly our friends here pump out a spreadsheet that say "take this spec, the rest is junk, move on" within days of a release. I think Blizz wants the system to be complex enough that only they know what is "exactly" the maximum amount of damage a group can do, or at least to make it take a LOT longer for us to figure out.
Ideally that means a lot more options are competitive for players (Blizz stated goal of all these changes to the game), and that is a good thing, but the proof is in the pudding as we say.
Pardon all my mage comparisons, but that was what I played in TBC so that is where my experiences lie. I definitely experienced the spreadsheet phenomena first hand where the optimal spec is found, then all sorts of people mimic it without any idea how to utilize it properly or in what situations it should be used. I even saw one person that had an arcane blast cycle spec, but would just spam frost bolts since that's all he knew.
Obviously it is not of our concern here to worry about people who don't put forth the effort to learn how to play their class optimally, but it could be of some use to raid/role leaders to have knowledge of "almost optimal" specs that may be within ~5% performance of optimal, but are ridiculously easier to perform with. I know with progression on a fight, most of my dps gains come with first becoming comfortable with my role in the fight, increasing attack presence, adjusting to abilities, etc.
Though it is a moot change in DPS over long fights, I was wondering why it seems all rotations for Muti specs open with Muti as opposed to Ambush. The following values were taken from Wowhead, and they assume that the target is not poisoned (as the fight is obviously just starting), where x is the MH and y is the OH weapon dmg...
base Muti dmg = 2*181 + x + y
base Ambush dmg = 2.75*x + 907.5
If I have this straight, Ambush dmg is much better as the 907.5 constant dominates the equations for reasonable values of weapon damage... With a standard 51/5/5 spec and assuming I didn't miss anything, the only talent that does not benefit Ambush and Muti equally is Puncturing Wounds.
Does Ambush only attack with your MH (in which case Muti would gain an additional attack as it uses both hands, and thus an additional potential poison proc over Ambush)? What about opening with a CB Ambush, for 2 CPs on the Ambush, so another Muti results in 4+ CPs, and further utilizing Ambush's high dmg without making initial rotations complex?
Or could it be reasonable to follow an Ambush with a Shiv to ensure that the following Muti has poison applied, perhaps augmented with a Shiv glyph as Muti rogues seem not to have good options for a 3rd glyph, resulting in a Shiv costing ~40 base energy with a slow dagger, minus 10 for overkill, minus 5 for the glyph = 25 enegry?
To what extent does the combo point that Muti has over Ambush make up for the dmg difference?
Though it is a moot change in DPS over long fights, I was wondering why it seems all rotations for Muti specs open with Muti as opposed to Ambush. The following values were taken from Wowhead, and they assume that the target is not poisoned (as the fight is obviously just starting), where x is the MH and y is the OH weapon dmg...
base Muti dmg = 2*181 + x + y
base Ambush dmg = 2.75*x + 907.5
If I have this straight, Ambush dmg is much better as the 907.5 constant dominates the equations for reasonable values of weapon damage... With a standard 51/5/5 spec and assuming I didn't miss anything, the only talent that does not benefit Ambush and Muti equally is Puncturing Wounds.
Does Ambush only attack with your MH (in which case Muti would gain an additional attack as it uses both hands, and thus an additional potential poison proc over Ambush)? What about opening with a CB Ambush, for 2 CPs on the Ambush, so another Muti results in 4+ CPs, and further utilizing Ambush's high dmg without making initial rotations complex?
Or could it be reasonable to follow an Ambush with a Shiv to ensure that the following Muti has poison applied, perhaps augmented with a Shiv glyph as Muti rogues seem not to have good options for a 3rd glyph, resulting in a Shiv costing ~40 base energy with a slow dagger, minus 10 for overkill, minus 5 for the glyph = 25 enegry?
To what extent does the combo point that Muti has over Ambush make up for the dmg difference?
Well you pick up several talents that buff Mutilate and not Ambush, by the way. Puncturing Wounds, Dual Wield Specialization. In addition to the Puncturing Wounds increased crit chance, each weapon has a chance to proc seal fate independently. This way you're very likely to have an extra cp, and you can save your Cold Blood for your first Envenom.
In a raid situation, at least, I'm rarely the first to tag the mob, and it's very likely that a sting will already be up for me to not have to worry about mutilate's bonus damage effect. In a 5-man or a raid without a hunter, you may be right that you shouldn't mutilate until he is poisoned, but I wouldn't waste the energy shivving unless you hit 100 energy with no poison applications (very unlikely).
Aldriana, i know you gave your thoughts on the trinkets that had been discovered in game about 30 pages ago or so. Do you have any thoughts on Mark of Norgannon (from Malygos, Equip 69 Expertise, 2 minute on use effect of increasing haste by 491 for 20 seconds) as compared to the other trinkets that have been uncovered in Wrath so far. I caveat this question by acknowledging that the relative value of these trinkets will certainly vary based on one's gear.
I think it is helpful as people focus on their gearing priorities (especially those in guilds with DKP as a system) to realize as far in advance as possible which trinket might become the DST of WotLK (i.e., take it as soon as you can because who knows how long you'll be doing Gruul).
So, the short answer is that it's too early to say for sure. First, stat weightings are still being nailed down - I've done some estimates, and I know Vulajin has, and I'm sure other people have as well - but all in all, they're just estimates. I have no particular confidence that we have stat weightings accurate to within 10% right now; hence, it's really hard to do detailed comparisons.
Second, we don't know the proc rate of some of those trinkets - there's some recent parses on them that I'll work through in the next day or so which might clarify the situation, but until we've done that, exact comparison will be impossible.
With those caveats in mind, my guess is that, among those trinkets, Fury of the Five Flights and Mirror of Truth (hereafter, FotFF and MoT) are going to be the big winners. In terms of my rough estimates, Mark of Norgannon (MoN), Loatheb's Shadow (LS), and Grim Toll (GT) all come in around 250 EP, while FotFF is clearly 320 AP for sustained fights, and MoT is likely in that range as well. Bandit's Insignia (BI) I can easily see winding up in either category - if it's 1 PPM, it'll be right up there with the top trinkets, while if it exhibits proc behavior akin to the SWP/IoQD items, it will be down with the second tier.
Now, it's worth noting that the best trinkets are all proc trinkets. I don't think that's an accident. My guess is that Blizzard is willing to let them have a slightly higher quantity of DPS for sustained fights (such as PW), at the expense of being not quite so good on interrupted fights, or fights where burst damage is important. I think in Blizzard's ideal world, we'd all be carrying half a dozen trinkets around and swapping them out on a fight-by-fight basis. That said, the discrepancy we're seeing is large enough that I suspect for PvE purposes we'll be primarily using the proc trinkets.
So, with all that said: I don't see any real strong outliers like the original version of DST, unless they screwed up and forgot to give MoT a cooldown or something. More detailed assessments will need to wait until we have good proc rate info on all of them, and exact answers will need to wait for a really good model giving good EP values for all specs.
Though it is a moot change in DPS over long fights, I was wondering why it seems all rotations for Muti specs open with Muti as opposed to Ambush. The following values were taken from Wowhead, and they assume that the target is not poisoned (as the fight is obviously just starting), where x is the MH and y is the OH weapon dmg...
base Muti dmg = 2*181 + x + y
base Ambush dmg = 2.75*x + 907.5
If I have this straight, Ambush dmg is much better as the 907.5 constant dominates the equations for reasonable values of weapon damage... With a standard 51/5/5 spec and assuming I didn't miss anything, the only talent that does not benefit Ambush and Muti equally is Puncturing Wounds.
Does Ambush only attack with your MH (in which case Muti would gain an additional attack as it uses both hands, and thus an additional potential poison proc over Ambush)? What about opening with a CB Ambush, for 2 CPs on the Ambush, so another Muti results in 4+ CPs, and further utilizing Ambush's high dmg without making initial rotations complex?
Or could it be reasonable to follow an Ambush with a Shiv to ensure that the following Muti has poison applied, perhaps augmented with a Shiv glyph as Muti rogues seem not to have good options for a 3rd glyph, resulting in a Shiv costing ~40 base energy with a slow dagger, minus 10 for overkill, minus 5 for the glyph = 25 enegry?
To what extent does the combo point that Muti has over Ambush make up for the dmg difference?
So, the reason I pretty much decided to just open with 2x Mutilate is two-fold:
1. Depending on the fight, you may be able to start combat 1-2s earlier if your initial attack is from the front. Yes it means you might get parried, but I'd take that dice roll over waiting an additional 1-2s before engaging. Ambush/Garrote openers won't have this flexibility.
2. If you 2x Mutilate, you're guaranteed to get at least 4 CP, and pretty likely to get 5. This means you have a good shot at dropping a 5pt SnD at the start, which means you can immediately go into a 4+ Rupture. This also helps build up your DP stack so your first Envenom after your Rupture is likely to be with 4 or 5 DP stacks. If you have only 2-3 CP the SnD will on average, be more expensive, and secondly it means you need to Envenom soon after the SnD, and have to wait a bit longer to Rupture.
So even though the attacks themselves may not necessarily be the best DPE right at the start (which may not even be true, as Isin noted it's likely a hunter will get a sting up before you even attack), it definitely feels like the best way to consistently start your cycle.
Though it is a moot change in DPS over long fights, I was wondering why it seems all rotations for Muti specs open with Muti as opposed to Ambush.
On a typical encounter the opportunity cost of stealthing to the back of a target is prohibatively high compared to running in at full speed and commencing DPS at the earliest opportunity. This is on top of all the factors others have already presented.
I have been selfishly waiting for someone else to post this information due to me being incredibly lazy but the time has come to get off my laurels and do it. Obviously it’s the highly debated issue of what the hell dagger should I be using for Mutilate come 3.0. The following data is what I have come up with by punching the various choices into the Roguecraft BC 0-4-1 sheet.
I have done the combinations of the following daggers (Leaving out the KJ dagger as my guild is currently working on M’uru and I do not myself have access to it) I have also only done combinations with the quicker daggers in the MH as the slow MH daggers were not in the same ballpark.
Fang of Kalecgos
Edge of Oppression
Shiv of Exsanguination
Shard of Azzinoth
Messenger of Fate
Tracker's Blade
To help in the interpretation, my current gear is bellow.
Arcanite Steam-Pistol
Cursed Vision of Sargeras
Choker of Endless Nightmares
Shoulderpads of Vehemence
Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape
Slayer's Chestguard
Slayer's Bracers
Gloves of Immortal Dusk
Slayer's Belt
Slayer's Legguards
Angelista's Revenge
Stormrage Signet Ring
Slayer's Boots
Shard of Contempt
Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality
I have used the standard 51/5/5 build (5 in sub being 5/5 Relentless Strikes (level 70)
I have used pretty much what I expect to be standard 25 man raid buffs.
Instant was on the MH and deadly was on the OH
Combo builder is of course mutilate using the Xe/Yr (CttC) cycle with a pool of 60
Findings are
Fang of Kalecgos / Fang of Kalecgos 3357.31
Fang of Kalecgos / Shiv of Exsanguination 3327.14
Fang of Kalecgos / Tracker's Blade 3315.24
Fang of Kalecgos / Shard of Azzinoth 3269.40
Fang of Kalecgos / Messenger of Fate 3328.29
Fang of Kalecgos / Edge of Oppression 3293.36
Edge of Oppression / Fang of Kalecgos 3314.65
Edge of Oppression / Shiv of Exsanguination 3265.44
Edge of Oppression / Tracker's Blade 3273.42
Edge of Oppression / Shard of Azzinoth 3211.39
Edge of Oppression / Messenger of Fate 3267.51
Edge of Oppression / Edge of Oppression 3230.81
Tracker's Blade / Fang of Kalecgos 3308.89
Tracker's Blade / Shiv of Exsanguination 3276.98
Tracker's Blade / Tracker's Blade 3267.08
Tracker's Blade / Shard of Azzinoth 3233.85
Tracker's Blade / Messenger of Fate 3291.44
Tracker's Blade / Edge of Oppression 3256.99
Messenger of Fate / Fang of Kalecgos 3339.69
Messenger of Fate / Shiv of Exsanguination 3289.46
Messenger of Fate / Tracker's Blade 3298.30
Messenger of Fate / Shard of Azzinoth 3233.85
Messenger of Fate / Messenger of Fate 3291.44
Messenger of Fate / Edge of Oppression 3256.99
I hope this helps anyone who may be interested. I guess there will be slight variations depending on what gems/buffs other popele may punch in but I hope it can clear up some of the questions people may have. On a personal note, I bummed about it, as I never did bother picking up the fang of Kalecgos or the messenger of Fate thinking at the time if Mutilate would come back it would be with the slow/slow combo and my Shard/Shiv would do the job. Time to start praying for drops I guess
I hope this helps anyone who may be interested. I guess there will be slight variations depending on what gems/buffs other popele may punch in but I hope it can clear up some of the questions people may have. On a personal note, I bummed about it, as I never did bother picking up the fang of Kalecgos or the messenger of Fate thinking at the time if Mutilate would come back it would be with the slow/slow combo and my Shard/Shiv would do the job. Time to start praying for drops I guess
Don't forget about the Swift Blade of Uncertainty. It's ridiculously easy to get, and at least on my spreadsheet, is a better offhand than the Edge of Oppression, and close to the Messenger of Fate.
Can someone run some lower-tier daggers through? I don't have access to anything past about Kara-level, but I want to try to get into more endgame raiding come Wrath, and would like to get good daggers so I can level quickly. If nobody can take the time to do this, I'll get around to it eventually. My gear is limited to pretty much badge gear + easier heroics + maybe Kara.
Can someone run some lower-tier daggers through? I don't have access to anything past about Kara-level, but I want to try to get into more endgame raiding come Wrath, and would like to get good daggers so I can level quickly. If nobody can take the time to do this, I'll get around to it eventually. My gear is limited to pretty much badge gear + easier heroics + maybe Kara.
The Edge of Oppression and the Swift Blade of Uncertainty are available from heroics and badges.
It looks like your Main Hand choices at that level are going to be ranked something like:
Edge of Oppression (Heroic MGT)
Prowler's Strikeblade (ZA)
Feltooth Eviscerator (Heroic Ramparts)
and for your Offhand
Swift Blade of Uncertainty (45 Badges)
Merciless Gladiator's Shiv (20k or so Honor points)
Edge of Oppression (Heroic MGT)
Feltooth Eviscerator (Heroic Ramparts)
Blade of the Unrequited (Julianne)
Really your best bet is to call in all your favors and get people to run the first two bosses of MGT with you every day.
If you can't get that done, I wouldn't really sweat it. You can get some really good daggers from questing and instancing in wrath that will replace all of these.
Thanks. I figured it would come down to running MgT a bunch. The only problem I forsee is that my friends who tank either aren't geared or don't think they're geared enough for MgT. I've already got Gladiator's Shiv (Season 1) as an offhand and I'm hoping to get Feltooth Eviscerator sometime soon, I just haven't had luck on drops yet.
Thanks. I figured it would come down to running MgT a bunch. The only problem I forsee is that my friends who tank either aren't geared or don't think they're geared enough for MgT. I've already got Gladiator's Shiv (Season 1) as an offhand and I'm hoping to get Feltooth Eviscerator sometime soon, I just haven't had luck on drops yet.
Yeah, sorry I didn't include the S1 shiv. The season 1 shiv is actually showing up as slightly better than the Edge of Oppression for an OH, so I think you're pretty set there. As for getting the Edge for your main hand, you only have to kill the first two bosses in MGT, which are the easy ones.
The Edge of Oppression and the Swift Blade of Uncertainty are available from heroics and badges.
...
Really your best bet is to call in all your favors and get people to run the first two bosses of MGT with you every day.
If you can't get that done, I wouldn't really sweat it. You can get some really good daggers from questing and instancing in wrath that will replace all of these.
So i'm in a somewhat similar boat. I can get access to the Edge of Oppression and the SBoU fairly easily (i have 100ish badges available). So I ran the numbers with my gear on Vulajin's spreadsheet, and the numbers are fairly surprising to me based on the discussions in this and the roguecraft spreadsheet threads. (i'm in a mix of T4 and T5 gear).
Best dps seems to be Blade of Serration/SBoU with BoS/Edge of Oppression just about 4dps behind.
The strange thing is, I lose about 55dps by switching to the fast mainhand, with Edge/SBoU. Even Heartrazor (my current dagger) and SBoU comes out way ahead of this, but about 20ish behind the first 2 combos.
anyway, it seems for my gear, the spreadsheet is saying slow mainhand/fast offhand is the ideal combo, at least based on the daggers I have access to. Doesn't this run somewhat counter to the conventional wisdom? Or am I not crossing some magical gear level?
So i'm in a somewhat similar boat. I can get access to the Edge of Oppression and the SBoU fairly easily (i have 100ish badges available). So I ran the numbers with my gear on Vulajin's spreadsheet, and the numbers are fairly surprising to me based on the discussions in this and the roguecraft spreadsheet threads. (i'm in a mix of T4 and T5 gear).
Best dps seems to be Blade of Serration/SBoU with BoS/Edge of Oppression just about 4dps behind.
The strange thing is, I lose about 55dps by switching to the fast mainhand, with Edge/SBoU. Even Heartrazor (my current dagger) and SBoU comes out way ahead of this, but about 20ish behind the first 2 combos.
anyway, it seems for my gear, the spreadsheet is saying slow mainhand/fast offhand is the ideal combo, at least based on the daggers I have access to. Doesn't this run somewhat counter to the conventional wisdom? Or am I not crossing some magical gear level?
killa
Are you doing combat daggers or mutilate? The numbers we've been talking about are strictly for mutilate; the fast mainhand gets a bump because of the points spent in poison-enhancing talents.
Are you doing combat daggers or mutilate? The numbers we've been talking about are strictly for mutilate; the fast mainhand gets a bump because of the points spent in poison-enhancing talents.
Definitely mutilate, which is why i was surprised. Although I'm looking at it with Deadly mainhand/Instant offhand - ie, instant on the faster weapon. I tried Edge/SBoU with instant on the mainhand, and that came out fairly close, but about 8-10 dps behind.
Don't forget about the Swift Blade of Uncertainty. It's ridiculously easy to get, and at least on my spreadsheet, is a better offhand than the Edge of Oppression, and close to the Messenger of Fate.
Interesting, I haven't done DPS parsing yet on PTR but I have done quite a bit of spreadsheeting with Vulajin's latest version. With my gear set (ZA/Badges), EoO beats out Swift Blade of Uncertainty by 5 DPS.
Also, Blade of Serration/EoO is better for me than EoO/Blade of Serration, by a few small DPS points as well.
I guess moral of the story is plug in your own gear and check it out yourself...
As an epilogue, here are our feelings on bloat. The problem with the Balance tree was that druids had to spend nearly all their points just on pure damage. It's hard to justify giving up damage for utility, PvP or fun talents in a raid scenario. Ideally you should be trading those talents off against each other ,not against your damage (or healing or mitigation).
So here's hoping that Blizzard will follow through on that train of thought for Rogues, and give Combat a bit of wiggle room in the talent tree.
I'll check some combinations of various low-gear level daggers sometime either tonight or tomorrow with my gear (mostly meciless gladiator and other pre-kara stuff) so that those of us who don't have access to high-end raiding gear can see what's best for us.
I believe it depends. If the target is murderable, then yes, murder is always better. However, if the target isn't murderable, then murder is zero dps gain, while fleet footed (and/or quick recovery) at least give you some positive benefit. With that said, for raid dps I will always take murder unless I know for sure that I am fighting 100% non-murderable targets, as that way I don't have to respec for raids that do have murderable targets.
10/07/08, 1:45 PM
Similar Threads
