I disagree. In fact I'd go so far as to say that you would notice no dps difference between two rogues of equal gear/skill/spec if somehow one had an energy base of 110 and another had a base of 90. The wiggle room would be more forgiving for a lazier player, but you should work on your laziness rather than picking up Vigor if that applied to you.
I don't think there's any question that in a Mutilate build there will be no room for Vigor. We don't have enough points as it is to get everything that would make it an ideal build.
The build in question was actually a combat build for a level 70 with 3.0 talents. There aren't many other talents available for that build, but I think Lethality and Prey on the Weak are clearly superior.
For a tank and spank fight, I certainly agree with this. Vigor provides next to no dps benefit on brutallus or gorefiend, which are classic dps checks--a whopping 10 energy over the course of the whole fight.
The time you get "real world" gains from vigor is on a fight where dps is frequently interrupted for more than a few seconds. Think of it as 10 energy every time your energy caps out. I can't think of any fights in BT or sunwell where you'd get more than 50 or so energy out of it--council probably does best when you're on kick duty since she gets BoP'd so much, though your dps is already getting tanked cause of interruptions, lack of proper debuffs, and spending energy on kick. Vigor has nominal benefit on supremus, illidan, and m'uru, but again on the order of 30-50 energy over the whole fight. Maybe a little more on illidan depending on how your tanks do flame positioning and where beams and such land.
The bottom line is really that vigor provides so little benefit for most fights that it's not worth taking when you could be taking talents that actually increase your dps all the time.
For a tank and spank fight, I certainly agree with this. Vigor provides next to no dps benefit on brutallus or gorefiend, which are classic dps checks--a whopping 10 energy over the course of the whole fight.
The time you get "real world" gains from vigor is on a fight where dps is frequently interrupted for more than a few seconds. Think of it as 10 energy every time your energy caps out. I can't think of any fights in BT or sunwell where you'd get more than 50 or so energy out of it--council probably does best when you're on kick duty since she gets BoP'd so much, though your dps is already getting tanked cause of interruptions, lack of proper debuffs, and spending energy on kick. Vigor has nominal benefit on supremus, illidan, and m'uru, but again on the order of 30-50 energy over the whole fight. Maybe a little more on illidan depending on how your tanks do flame positioning and where beams and such land.
The bottom line is really that vigor provides so little benefit for most fights that it's not worth taking when you could be taking talents that actually increase your dps all the time.
While I completely agree that Vigor is simply not a cost-effective way of spending your talent points, I think that to consider vigor merely in a "capped out" sense is to undervalue the talent.
I suppose it's all moot because nobody's saying its worth the point, but I think we should keep in mind that it also increases pooling capacity and DOES (even if it's currently at a trivial level) allow for 1 extra second to allow a rupture to finish or an SnD to get closer to finishing.
Murder: There are already a multitude of talents in all trees at all levels that directly affect dagger damage (Puncturing Wounds, Close Quarters Combat, Opportunity, etc). Adding yet another would be... icky. Not all talents should work in all situations and that's fine.
I might agree about some talents, but Murder is somewhat special in that it appears to be kind of a make or break talent, ie if the target is not affected by Murder then you should probably spec Combat.
It didn't matter as much before because pretty much every PvE spec had it and there wasn't anything else better. And I felt, perhaps naively, that it was justifiable of Blizzard to have that restriction because other classes have similar talents with similar restrictions. But then they changed the similar Hunter talents, for example, and consolidated all their Slaying talents into one, and made it considerably more robust by basing its effect on whatever they are tracking. (Which means they can use it against pretty much everything except bugs AND they can change it at will mid-fight as the need arises.)
Maybe my suggestion to change it to affect damage from daggers isn't the right solution. But I do think that it needs to lose those target based restrictions.
Even if you get full energy capped while mobile fight, going from 100 energy to 110 hardly matters in PvE at all. If you turn 10 energy from Vigor in raw damage, for example 1/4 SS (~500?), it's obsolete gain in longer time period. It was PvP talent earlier and it's that still in 3.0.
Edit: There is not much to talk about level 70 Deep Combat PvE builds either. Only thing you can swap is Unfair Advantage to some other filler. It's possible to go for Fist/Sword hybrid and maybe swap RS for Ruthlessness + Bloodspatter but I wouldn't do either change. At level 80 it might be different story between SB vs Lethality and so on.
Even if you get full energy capped while mobile fight, going from 100 energy to 110 hardly matters in PvE at all. If you turn 10 energy from Vigor in raw damage, for example 1/4 SS (~500?), it's obsolete gain in longer time period. It was PvP talent earlier and it's that still in 3.0.
I wouldn't say it's "obsolete". If there is _any_ dps gain, then it's worth mentioning. And I think it's pretty clear that it does have some potential in certain situations.
However, the real question is whether taking Vigor or taking another talent gives _more_ of a dps gain. The consensus seems to be that taking Vigor for a PvE build is the poorer choice.
I wouldn't say it's "obsolete". If there is _any_ dps gain, then it's worth mentioning. And I think it's pretty clear that it does have some potential in certain situations.
However, the real question is whether taking Vigor or taking another talent gives _more_ of a dps gain. The consensus seems to be that taking Vigor for a PvE build is the poorer choice.
What I mean with obsolete is that I would rather pick Imp. EA or any other talent around Vigor rather than Vigor itself for PvE build. Does Vigor add damage? Yes. Is it still worth to take for PvE build? Not in my opinion until someone proves it wrong.
On other topic, has anyone made numbers of out Deep Subtlety build for PvE? How good HaT or SftS actually are? What I had in mind was this for level 70 Deep Hemo Subtlety. In theory SftS increases number of finishers and therefore energy gain from RS, could it be worth to spec Malice + 1 Precision for it? The problem what I thought is lack of good finishers for Subtlety. If HaT + Setup will add alot of CP's, where to dump those?
What I mean with obsolete is that I would rather pick Imp. EA or any other talent around Vigor rather than Vigor itself for PvE build. Does Vigor add damage? Yes. Is it still worth to take for PvE build? Not in my opinion until someone proves it wrong.
There's no room to pick it up. Anything else you get is not filler.
There's no room to pick it up. Anything else you get is not filler.
We all know this I guess. My point was if Vigor could be fit in build, it still wouldn't be worth of it if you change 10 energy in raw damage once in a while. Pooling and avoiding Rupture overleap can change numbers little but I still don't see 110 energy pool to be beneficial for using one talent point in PvE.
We all know this I guess. My point was if Vigor could be fit in build, it still wouldn't be worth of it if you change 10 energy in raw damage once in a while. Pooling and avoiding Rupture overleap can change numbers little but I still don't see 110 energy pool to be beneficial for using one talent point in PvE.
I agree with not seeing it's usefulness. Since latency and human reaction are other problems you would have to deal with, pooling past 100 isn't really something you'd expect to happen on a regular basis, especially since the damage gains are so small.
I'm beginning to question whether or not to put points into Imp Slice and Dice. I was not in the beta, nor am I in the PTR, so feel free to belittle me all you like; however, I am getting the impression that with the new mutilate rotation there will never be a threat of having SnD fall off.
With the amount of crit available to a mutilate build, combined with a SnD glyph... how much of a need is there for Imp SnD?
I know it's heresy for a rogue to think of using eviscerate, for a number of reasons (energy, damage mitigation, etc: It's all been discussed a thousand times); however, if I was to remove Imp SnD from a build and use Eviscerate/Rupture/SnD Glyphs... would SnD be sustainable? Would the 10% extra crit combined with DP never being consumed make up for the damage lost through armor mitigation? Energy isn't an issue, as eviscerate costs the same as envenom.
Sorry if this is stated elsewhere... but search didn't find me anything.
In PTR (and on various web sites) there is Env rank3 and 4, but those are exactly same as rank2.
All those spread-sheets & actual Beta tests DPS numbers (including Evis-Env comparison too) are done with rank2 Env?
Or did I miss something and there is info on actual rank3/4 Env somewhere?
I agree with everything you've said except one thing: I think it's a mistake to try to overwrite your Rupture at all. You'll inevitably lose dps time even if it's only 1 second as you verify that you cannot overwrite the Rupture and then choose a different finisher. Maybe it's not significant enough to matter, but I remember how infuriating it was.
<snip>
Lastly, I have a question: how important is Improved Poisons? I understand that poisons are going to be doing more damage and that being able to envenom whenever you want is important, but is 5 pts in Improved Poisons really cost effective? Is there not perhaps a diminishing return on the talent that would optimise at maybe 2 or 3 pts spent in it? I'm very leery about giving up both Fleet Footed and Quick Recovery for Improved Poisons.
First, with proper cycle management and suitable attention to detail, there is no reason you should lose DPS time to managing your ruptures correctly. It's true that you're losing DPS potential by overwriting the ends of them in comparison to the theoretical damage potential of such a build; but that was never the point I was trying to make. My point was simply that with suitable attention to detail, the Rupture glyph cannot do otherwise than raise your Rupture uptime. If you mismanage it, of course, it can, but I don't theorycraft under the assumption that people are going to screw up. And the real point was that recommending people not take the rupture glyph (which was the context of the conversation) is flat-out misinformation, which was all I was trying to put a stop to.
Second, Improved Poisons gives damage. Fleet Footed and Quick Recovery do not. So you're welcome to swap out your DPS talents for utility talents if you so desire, but it will cost you DPS on all but the most interrupted of fights. For additional details on the damage gained from various talents, I suggest you read back through the thread and find the extensive analysis of the value of various talent points that has been provided. My recollection is that Improved Poisons is one of the absolute last talents you'll want to drop. There are better things to lose if you want FF or QR.
Originally Posted by Ena.the.rogue
I disagree. In fact I'd go so far as to say that you would notice no dps difference between two rogues of equal gear/skill/spec if somehow one had an energy base of 110 and another had a base of 90. The wiggle room would be more forgiving for a lazier player, but you should work on your laziness rather than picking up Vigor if that applied to you.
And I would say that you're wrong. A larger energy pool allows a tighter cycle, as you have more room to absorb variance. When theorycrafting cycles in TBC, we've built in a second or so of slack into most cycles to account for the fact that you simply can't queue enough energy to cover the variance in a tight cycle. But if you had an energy pool of 500, you could run perfectly tight cycles and be fine - any RNG issues could be absorbed by energy queuing. Thus, you'd be able to run a tighter, better cycle and hence do more damage with an energy pool of 500.
Now, that said, 110 energy is a far cry from 500, and in practice the benefits are much smaller - and not even necessarily noticeable - but to say that it has no effect at all on sustained DPS is false. Is the DPS gain minimal? Yes. Is it much less than other talents? Yes. Is Vigor thus only worth considering for interrupted fights? Absolutely. But is the benefit absolutely zero for sustained fights? No.
And just to be clear: I'm not advocating that people should take Vigor for PvE - they shouldn't. I'm just clearing up this point of misinformation that has been posted.
I'm beginning to question whether or not to put points into Imp Slice and Dice. I was not in the beta, nor am I in the PTR, so feel free to belittle me all you like; however, I am getting the impression that with the new mutilate rotation there will never be a threat of having SnD fall off.
With the amount of crit available to a mutilate build, combined with a SnD glyph... how much of a need is there for Imp SnD?
I know it's heresy for a rogue to think of using eviscerate, for a number of reasons (energy, damage mitigation, etc: It's all been discussed a thousand times); however, if I was to remove Imp SnD from a build and use Eviscerate/Rupture/SnD Glyphs... would SnD be sustainable? Would the 10% extra crit combined with DP never being consumed make up for the damage lost through armor mitigation? Energy isn't an issue, as eviscerate costs the same as envenom.
**Edit: Assuming CttC.
You would use Envenom to trigger the CttC SnD, not Eviscerate.
And you do not need Imp. SnD to sustain CttC Mutilate Cycles, and in fact the points are better spent elsewhere. The Glyph alone is enough.
In PTR (and on various web sites) there is Env rank3 and 4, but those are exactly same as rank2.
All those spread-sheets & actual Beta tests DPS numbers (including Evis-Env comparison too) are done with rank2 Env?
Or did I miss something and there is info on actual rank3/4 Env somewhere?
Envenom Ranks 3 and 4 are implemented. I wouldn't be able to find the link, but Vulajin deduced the actual values for those ranks via some testing. The tooltip however has not been updated yet, which is why it appears to be NYI.
That is the mutilate build i put into the spreadsheet.
However, my dps was like 100 higher as combat than mutilate
Am i using an inferior spec or is something else wrong, because i was under the impression that mutilate was supposed better than combat
Mutilate does not benefit from the same stats and combat. Try trading Agility gems for your hit gems in the sheet. And putting in any other gear that you have or can get that is better designed for mutilate.
Definitely mutilate, which is why i was surprised. Although I'm looking at it with Deadly mainhand/Instant offhand - ie, instant on the faster weapon. I tried Edge/SBoU with instant on the mainhand, and that came out fairly close, but about 8-10 dps behind.
Back on the subject of the "conventional" fast dagger wisdom, I've been running sloppy tests on the PTR and using the spreadsheet, and getting some weird results. In full badge/ZA quality gear, I plugged in different combinations of [Dagger of Bad Mojo], [Merciless Gladiator's Shiv], and [Edge of Oppression] (x2) and the results were the opposite of what I expected.
Unbuffed DPS according to the spreadsheet, instant poison always on the fastest weapon -
Dagger of Bad Mojo / Merciless Shiv: 1374
Dagger of Bad Mojo / Edge of Oppression: 1370
Edge of Oppression / Merciless Gladiator's Shiv: 1369
Edge of Oppression / Edge of Oppression: 1355
Now, I don't know what it is that's making these results come out like this, but even though they're very close, I do seem to see a difference in real world target dummy tests. All this confusion about what type of weapon to use for mutilate is putting me off the spec a little. Any idea what's going on?
Now, I don't know what it is that's making these results come out like this, but even though they're very close, I do seem to see a difference in real world target dummy tests. All this confusion about what type of weapon to use for mutilate is putting me off the spec a little. Any idea what's going on?
Speed gives you an edge. Back before Focused Attacks and the poison nerfs, it was a huge edge where 2 fast daggers despite being lower dps daggers ruled. Now, the edge isn't as large as before, so you can't afford to drop in dagger dps too far anymore just for the sake of speed.
Originally Posted by weka
I was just wondering, in pseudo SWP gear, come Tuesday, what will be the best raiding spec before wrath comes out? Should I stick with Combat Swords, or switch to Mutilate?
Hi my first post here, been following this thread with keen interest since about page 119 or 120 or so. I've been exclusively combat spec since 30, and now am planning to go daggers once the Patch goes live.
That being said, I'm hearing conflicting results between use of EoO/SBoU vs (slower MH)/SBoU, and also of the poisons to equip accordingly.
My understanding so far is
1) Fast MH > Slow MH - but due to the availability of higher ilevel MH (like Dagger of Bad Mojo, Messenger of Fate, Fang of Kalecgos) all outDPS EoO
2) Instant Poison on Faster Weapon (irregardless MH / OH)
Pls feel free to correct ^^;;
Off the side note, I've been wondering about the downside of Weapon Swapping. I have never actually done this in practice before in the game, but I was wondering if its worth it to do a macro that equips a slow MH Dagger (unpoisoned or otherwise), to hit on Mutilate, before swapping back.
The only real reason I would see not to do this to maximise DPS is if the time lost to the weapon swap adversely affects DPS. I've been checking on wowwiki and other forums for trace mentions of Weapon Swap downtime, but haven't been able to find any. Any advice on this issue would be much appreciated
The only real reason I would see not to do this to maximise DPS is if the time lost to the weapon swap adversely affects DPS. I've been checking on wowwiki and other forums for trace mentions of Weapon Swap downtime, but haven't been able to find any. Any advice on this issue would be much appreciated
I have done research and came to the conclusion that the optimal skill rotation is "4n/4n/4r"
...but what does that even mean?
I ASSUME that means "4 point envenom, 4 point envenom, 4 point rupture"
If so, I am having an extremely hard time keeping up this rotation or juggling my skills accordingly
I am repeatedly getting 2-3 combo points, but rarely 4...when that happens, do I spend the extra time to mutilate again and end up with 5 combo points?
Also in terms of priority if my rupture just fell off do I immediately spend my combo points on another rupture or envenom again even if slice and dice isn't at risk of falling off? because if I keep doing that it feels like I am rarely casting envenom, only once to keep my slice and dice up.
Also another thing that is driving me CRAZY- what weapon speed daggers do I use!? I am currently using 1.8 speed mh with 1.3 speed offhand; deadly on mainhand and instant on offhand...that is what I thought was the correct thing to do.
HOWEVER, I have been hearing different things from different people; "fast daggers on both" "slow daggers on both" "slow mh fast oh!" "slow mh, badger in offhand" I am so lost I think my little rogue head will explode
I have done research and came to the conclusion that the optimal skill rotation is "4n/4n/4r"
...but what does that even mean?
I ASSUME that means "4 point envenom, 4 point envenom, 4 point rupture"
You seemed to have missed out the 4+ part, basically means 4 or more, so yea, if you wind up with 3, go for 5 point finishers.
Originally Posted by Eldrea
Also in terms of priority if my rupture just fell off do I immediately spend my combo points on another rupture or envenom again even if slice and dice isn't at risk of falling off? because if I keep doing that it feels like I am rarely casting envenom, only once to keep my slice and dice up.
I believe you might need a Rupture glyph too to allow more envenoms.
Originally Posted by Eldrea
Also another thing that is driving me CRAZY- what weapon speed daggers do I use!? I am currently using 1.8 speed mh with 1.3 speed offhand; deadly on mainhand and instant on offhand...that is what I thought was the correct thing to do.
HOWEVER, I have been hearing different things from different people; "fast daggers on both" "slow daggers on both" "slow mh fast oh!" "slow mh, badger in offhand" I am so lost I think my little rogue head will explode
Use best daggers you can get. Speed is good, but not the end all must have for ultimate dps ignore everything else stat. Check with the spreadsheet to see.
So the cycle is only viable to pull off assuming at a minimum you've got the SnD Glyph, and potentially requires the Rupture Glyph (which will not be available until WotLK). So at 70 you may end up just doing 4+n/4+r as your cycle, and occasionally have an extra Envenom thrown in there if you've got some crit luck.
Also the cycle is 4+, not strictly 4. So if you have 4 CP you execute the finisher and continue on to the next part of the cycle. If you have less than 4 CP you perform another Mutilate. In a Mutilate cycle it's a lot more dynamic and what you do will be far more dependent on how lucky/unlucky you are (Ruthlessness procs and Mutilate crits).
I find it easier rather than sticking to a hard and fast cycle, to prioritize what my goals are and then execute based on those rules. You'll need a good timer mod (I recommend NeedToKnow), and just keep track of what's going on and make decisions based on that. The priorities are:
1. Don't let HfB drop
2. Don't let SnD drop
3. Don't let Rupture drop
4. If everything is good and you have the CP, throw in another Envenom
Think of it in terms of that instead of specifically "oh now I need to hit that!" and you'll be able to make the most of good and bad streaks during the fight.
As for weapons, if you have only two weapons and you know you're using them, if at all possible the faster one should be in the MH with Instant Poison, and the slower one should be in the OH with Deadly Poison. However, when comparing two weapons there's a lot of factors to take into account and there really isn't a hard and fast rule. Faster weapons are preferable, but if there's a significant DPS loss (in raw DPS and/or in stat loss) then it may not be worth it. But you really can't do much other than compare it in the spreadsheet.
10/09/08, 6:31 PM
Similar Threads
