I played a bit on ptr just to experience the new talents and the mutilate spec that I have never tried before. At least for my gear level (SoA and badge OH daggers when mut) I found out that mutilate is higher dps when unbuffed on level 60 dummies. What disturbed me when playing is, and I really hope this is just because I'm new to the spec, I couldn't dare move my eyes off the need to know bars! Sure it's not a problem when the opponent is a dummy (or brutallus for that matter) but in more mobile fights, especially learning ones when you should do your best, it made me feel like the spec had a lot of "oh shit!" potential.
P.S. It could be that I'm just an aging scrub and the spec is not harder than combat in anyway
I played a bit on ptr just to experience the new talents and the mutilate spec that I have never tried before. At least for my gear level (SoA and badge OH daggers when mut) I found out that mutilate is higher dps when unbuffed on level 60 dummies. What disturbed me when playing is, and I really hope this is just because I'm new to the spec, I couldn't dare move my eyes off the need to know bars! Sure it's not a problem when the opponent is a dummy (or brutallus for that matter) but in more mobile fights, especially learning ones when you should do your best, it made me feel like the spec had a lot of "oh shit!" potential.
P.S. It could be that I'm just an aging scrub and the spec is not harder than combat in anyway
I have been running Mutilate for the past three months through Sunwell so I can assure you that it isn't necessarily an issue with you being an aging scrub. Mutilate is significantly more complex to run than combat. There are a lot more variables to calculate on the fly, more variance in the cycles, required energy pooling and timing, etc.
To maximize damage output from a typical high-end Burning Crusade muti rogue, you generally need to be watching timers for Find Weakness, AToL, SnD, Rupture (or XA), CP generation, and energy pooling. And, to a lesser extent, monitoring your deadly stacks. Plus moving/reacting properly for any events, etc.
As for bars to watch in WotLK, you get to trade out watching Find Weakness for maintaining HfB. Trading a 10 second timer for a 30 second timer will be a wonderful thing comparatively.
This isn't to say that Combat rogues don't have bars to watch, too. But I know that I'm nearly sleepwalking in comparison when I spec combat these days to fill a niche.
Just out of curiosity: did you ever play fury warrior, and was HfB in playstyle comparable to keeping up rampage?
Just asking since I've ran karazhan a couple of times with my warrior alt, and experienced rampage to be a rather clunky mechanic, partly due to rage cost (not as plentiful a commodity in blue/epic gear as it is in T6).
EDITED NOTE: I am not playing in the beta, nor downloaded PTR client. even though I keep up to date with mechanics I don't want to see content for the second time when it releases to live.
"...vincer potero dentro a me l'ardore
ch'i' ebbi a divenir del mondo esperto
e de li vizi umani e del valore"
Hey all, great discussion going on in here. I was wondering though, with the new changes to Combat what would be the suggested role for 3.0 patch forthcoming to the servers? Should current combat spec'd players re-spec to Mutilate or should we just keep swords?
If needed I can buy both badge daggers, just curious how much DPS I would see as a gain over current combat spec.
Just out of curiosity: did you ever play fury warrior, and was HfB in playstyle comparable to keeping up rampage?
Just asking since I've ran karazhan a couple of times with my warrior alt, and experienced rampage to be a rather clunky mechanic, partly due to rage cost (not as plentiful a commodity in blue/epic gear as it is in T6).
EDITED NOTE: I am not playing in the beta, nor downloaded PTR client. even though I keep up to date with mechanics I don't want to see content for the second time when it releases to live.
Yes it's pretty much like rampage, except the dropping cost is more important. You need a total of 90 energy to get a full stack back where as rampage gets back to a full stack in seconds with decent crit rating. Never had problems with my warrior to keep rampage up (mostly in vengeful gear). Overall i think they are pretty similar abilities in terms of babysitting, which is slightly disappointing, imho.
Hey all, great discussion going on in here. I was wondering though, with the new changes to Combat what would be the suggested role for 3.0 patch forthcoming to the servers? Should current combat spec'd players re-spec to Mutilate or should we just keep swords?
If needed I can buy both badge daggers, just curious how much DPS I would see as a gain over current combat spec.
Use the Spreadsheet
Also there's been lots of discussion in previous pages on mutilate and how it compares to combat.
Hi everyone, I've been trying to keep up with this really great on-going thread for WOTLK Rogue DPS, but due to work and school piling lately, I haven't been keeping up as much. But, a few days ago I was looking around on the Rogue forums, and realized most Mutilate Talent builds included Ruthlessness, which kind of confused me.
As a Mut Rogue in a raiding situation, is the goal to use Mutilate as little as possible?
Example Scenario:
You just used finisher that procced Ruthlessness.
You have 1 CP.
You Mutilate crit.
You have 4 CP
Finisher.
OR:
You proc Ruthlessness. (1CP)
You Mutilate. (3CP)
You Mutilate (crit or not) (5-6CP)
Isn't it a bit of a waste to have Ruthlessness with Seal Fate? Because if Ruth did proc, then it kinda messes you up on your Mutilate doesn't it? Compared to without Ruthlessness...
Scenario:
Mutilate x2 = 4-6 CP
Finisher
-and this is what it is everytime compared to with Ruthlessness proccing?
I also thought about if taking Ruthlessness is a must, maybe don't put the 5 points into SF.
Scenario would be more like
Ruthlessness proc (1CP)
Mutx2 (5CP)
or no proc then Mutx2 (4CP)
I'm definitely new to the theorycrafting and such, so I'm kind of looking into how beneficial the Ruthlessness proc is.
Just a quick note - the spreadsheet shows that with my pve gear, which is basically badge + T5, Combat Fists w/ Dual Vanir's is ~2% ahead of Mutilate with MH Edge of Oppression OH Swift Blade of Uncertainty. This is with all default buffs and correctly set CP generator/cycles as far as I can tell, although I did not see a "4+" sort of option for Mutilate.
I sort of expected Mutilate to be slightly ahead - but the badge fists are a fair amount higher in iLevel than the edge in item level. Then again, I thought the extreme speed of the edge was deemed to make up for this as being one of the best daggers to use. Thoughts? Did I miss something on the sheet?
Edited for slight clarification
Edited again for - MH IP OH DP, since IP on the fastest weapon is the correct thing to do.
Just a quick note - the spreadsheet shows that with my pve gear, which is basically badge + T5, Combat Fists w/ Dual Vanir's is ~2% ahead of Mutilate with MH Edge of Oppression OH Swift Blade of Uncertainty. This is with all default buffs and correctly set CP generator/cycles as far as I can tell, although I did not see a "4+" sort of option for Mutilate.
I sort of expected Mutilate to be slightly ahead - but the badge fists are a fair amount higher in iLevel than the edge in item level. Then again, I thought the extreme speed of the edge was deemed to make up for this as being one of the best daggers to use. Thoughts? Did I miss something on the sheet?
Edited for slight clarification
Edited again for - MH IP OH DP, since IP on the fastest weapon is the correct thing to do.
It's likely a combination of things. For instance your gems being sub-optimal for a Mutilate build since Agi and AP are worth more than hit to Mut rogues. Also, the badge fists, or "The Uglies" as I like to call them, are significantly higher in ilevel than the EoO and the value of the super fast mh dagger doesn't make up the difference.
Also, the 4+ option is set by you in Vulajin's spreadsheet where you put the minimum number of CPs for each finisher (X/Y/Z) and also the energy queuing options you've set. Play around with that area a bit to find the optimum cycle for your gear and buffs.
All my best comments during raids come from a book called, "How to be Witty at Parties"
All of these weapon combinations were done without any changes in other gear. The gear used was my current gear, as seen in my armory (click my character's name on the left). The cycle was 4n/4r, using mutilate as the combo point builder and a 51/5/5 build without Master Poisoner. The buffs were the sheet's default buffs, and the boss type was Demon, so murder did not apply. When I get a chance, I'll do a comparison against a combat swords build using my current swords (Gladiator's Slicer / Gladiator's Quickblade).
All of these weapon combinations were done without any changes in other gear. The gear used was my current gear, as seen in my armory (click my character's name on the left). The cycle was 4n/4r, using mutilate as the combo point builder and a 51/5/5 build without Master Poisoner. The buffs were the sheet's default buffs, and the boss type was Demon, so murder did not apply. When I get a chance, I'll do a comparison against a combat swords build using my current swords (Gladiator's Slicer / Gladiator's Quickblade).
I have not changed the gemming, because I wanted to see simply what the performance of mutilate would be with various daggers compared to combat swords without changing anything other than the weapons. In actuality, I would probably regem if I switched to mutilate, tilting the results slightly in mutilate's favor. Then again, I still haven't gotten the majority of my gear enchanted and I have green-quality gems, so that wasn't really the point of the tests. These tests were done just to compare mutilate and combat at an extremely low gear level.
There seems to be a lot of confusion at the moment regarding the 'best' speed daggers to use for mutilate spec.;Fast/fast, slow/fast etc.
I don't understand why there is confusion as surely there 'should' be a best combination, the same way there is a best set of talents for the spec.
Just replying to 'use the spreadsheet' is meaningless as it should be set what is the best speed to use for a given set of talents.
I'm sure this is what people would prefer to see when browsing the forums for information.
Isn't it a bit of a waste to have Ruthlessness with Seal Fate? Because if Ruth did proc, then it kinda messes you up on your Mutilate doesn't it? Compared to without Ruthlessness...
Fair point, BUT after playing around with the spreadsheet it seems that the optimal rotation for most muti builds is currently 4e/4r, so if you get one more CP than you need before finishing it isn't the end of the world. Or did I miss sometihng?
Originally Posted by Timujingeo
There seems to be a lot of confusion at the moment regarding the 'best' speed daggers to use for mutilate spec.;Fast/fast, slow/fast etc.
I don't understand why there is confusion as surely there 'should' be a best combination, the same way there is a best set of talents for the spec.
Just replying to 'use the spreadsheet' is meaningless as it should be set what is the best speed to use for a given set of talents.
I'm sure this is what people would prefer to see when browsing the forums for information.
In most cases, fast/fast does more DPS. However, if you're serious about optimising your DPS you should use the spreadsheet.
So i'm hearing combat shiv builds are tearing things up DPS wise on PTR - what's that all about and how exactly does that work - fast OH or slow and just chain shivving or what?
So i'm hearing combat shiv builds are tearing things up DPS wise on PTR - what's that all about and how exactly does that work - fast OH or slow and just chain shivving or what?
This is old news, they've since buffed sinister strike via talents to the point that it out performs shiv as a combo point generator.
So i'm hearing combat shiv builds are tearing things up DPS wise on PTR - what's that all about and how exactly does that work - fast OH or slow and just chain shivving or what?
I believe Combat Shiv was the ideal choice for Combat before they buffed Combat. With the added talents that boost SS it outweighs Combat Shiv. Atleast from my understanding thats how it is.
There seems to be a lot of confusion at the moment regarding the 'best' speed daggers to use for mutilate spec.;Fast/fast, slow/fast etc.
I don't understand why there is confusion as surely there 'should' be a best combination, the same way there is a best set of talents for the spec.
Just replying to 'use the spreadsheet' is meaningless as it should be set what is the best speed to use for a given set of talents.
I'm sure this is what people would prefer to see when browsing the forums for information.
I don't think it's that simple. Partly because when people ask this question, what they really mean is "what daggers should I use of those that are available to me", partly because it might vary depending on the content you are playing (raid v solo v pvp), but also because any such statement that's made by certain alumni on this forum will get regurgitated out of context a thousand times on other forums as gospel. For example, if Aldriana says "fast/fast is optimal in most situations", the public forums will get people saying "you need 2 fast daggers for mutilate".
When everything is settled, after all there could still be changes, I hope the TTT Rogue PvE DPS article will be updated and should cover recommendations on how to select appropriate weapons for different specs.
I have just a quick question about threat in 3.0 . I know threat has never been an issue for us but i have played with 3 pallys for a long time and i'm used about getting a salvation and dps'ing with it.
So for those who actually raided on the beta (i just tested the specs) , how did you feel about your tanks and threat management in a raid in general?
10/11/08, 4:46 PM
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