I pointed the relative strength of wound and instant earlier in the thread, and others agreed. I think there may also be AP scaling benefits to instant over wound, but I don't know at what the points of inflection are... specifically at what point it becomes worthwhile spending talent points in improved poisons and using instant poison at all.
In the latest patch notes, they state Find Weakness is at 3/6/9% buff where on PTR and Beta (and on Talent Calcs) it shows it as 2/4/6%. Anyone know which is accurate?
The official patch notes are grossly outdated.
E.g. Improved Poisons is still at 25%/all poisons.
// Edit
Originally Posted by swelt
I pointed the relative strength of wound and instant earlier in the thread, and others agreed. I think there may also be AP scaling benefits to instant over wound, but I don't know at what the points of inflection are... specifically at what point it becomes worthwhile spending talent points in improved poisons and using instant poison at all.
I've read your statement before, but I didn't expect WP to actually outdamage IP on current level. Part of that may be that your calculations were for IP9 and WP7, which won't be available before hitting 78. Base damage for IP scales better with new ranks than WP.
I did some napkin math on Wound/Instant so correct me if I'm totally off here.
First: Since I only exchange IP with WP all of our other stats (AP/Hit/Crit/Mob Resist etc.) remain the same so I was thinking about an Poisondamage per (Melee-) Hit calculation.
Poisons available at lvl 70 are WP V and IP VII
IP: 20% proc on hit with 161+0.1*AP
0.2*(161+0.1*AP)
32.2 + 0.02*AP DMG per hit
WP: 50% proc on hit with 112+0.04*AP
0.5*(112+0.04*AP)
56 + 0.02*AP DMG per hit
I suspect there is a major oversight on my part because if the above calculation is correct WP will always be better than untalented IP regardless of AP.
Edit: Removed Poison links since they pointed to the old (2.4) versions.
Can't find a flaw there, but maybe I'm just as sloppy as you.
However, if you take into account Improved Poisons with its 10% increased proc rate, we get:
0.3*(161+0.1*AP)
48.3 + 0.02*AP + 0.01*AP DMG per hit
Removing WP's equivalence from that formula we have
56 + 0.02*AP = 48.3 + 0.02*AP + 0.01*AP
7.7 = 0.01*AP
AP = 770
So at 770 AP, IP with Improved Poisons does already the same damage as WP.
Then there's also the Envenom buff, which reduces the AP required to 220 (improved) resp. 308 (no improved) AP during its uptime.
// Edit
For Poison IX and Wound Poison VII these numbers become:
1350 AP (only improved)
540 AP (Envenom, no improved)
385.71 AP (Envenom, improved)
Last edited by sp00n : 10/14/08 at 11:09 AM.
Reason: IP9 not IP8, stupid!
I suspect there is a major oversight on my part because if the above calculation is correct WP will always be better than untalented IP regardless of AP.
Doesn't look like an oversight to me. Just a poorly thought out design decision on Blizzards part.
I also came up with 770AP as crossover point for 5/5 Imp.Poisons, but since almost every build with Imp.Poisons will also have Vile Poisons (Mutilate builds) IP is always the better choice (57.96+0.036AP for IP VII vs. 56+0.02AP for WP V) at least at lvl 70.
swelt already did some of this so just to show it the same way as my lvl70 calculations.
For lvl 80 Poisons (IP 9/WP VII)
untalented dmg per hit:
IP9: 0.2*(300+0.1*AP) = 60 + 0.02*AP
WP VII: 0.5*(231+0.04*AP) = 115,5 + 0.02*AP
So again WP is alway better than IP for untalented Poisons, with 5/5 Imp Poisons the crossover is at 2550AP and with 5/5 Imp. and 3/3 Vile the Crossover is at 468AP (interesting that wp scales way better than IP)
Edit: Forgot the effect of envenom for Mutilate builds so these numbers are for non-envenom users only
I should point out that our gear level is roughly 4/5 MH 4/9 BT.
We're stuck at the moment on the relative merits of Vigor, Fleet Footed, Quick Recovery and Ruthlessness. We have three points to spend between these talents. According to Vulajin's spreadsheet, optimal DPS can be gained by putting 1 point in Ruthlessness and the other 2 in Quick Recovery, but i'm interested if people think there's an argument for spending any of these points in Fleet Footed or Vigor that isn't considered in the spreadsheet DPS calculation.
EDIT: And the Wound/Instant thing can't be right, can it? That would be too weird.
The official patch notes are grossly outdated.
E.g. Improved Poisons is still at 25%/all poisons.
Um, can anyone else comment on this? because so far, it does say envenom and imp poisons are up to 25%.
and it also says Find weakness is back to 3/6/9%
But the notes state also that vitality is at 25%, and that blade twisting gives Sinster strike damage, and that focused attacks is also at 2 enegery, as well as Aggresion being Tier 1, which is knew to me.
These seem to be odd contradictions right?
How possible is it that Imp poisons and evenom are back to the way they were before?
I should point out that our gear level is roughly 4/5 MH 4/9 BT.
We're stuck at the moment on the relative merits of Vigor, Fleet Footed, Quick Recovery and Ruthlessness. We have three points to spend between these talents. According to Vulajin's spreadsheet, optimal DPS can be gained by putting 1 point in Ruthlessness and the other 2 in Quick Recovery, but i'm interested if people think there's an argument for spending any of these points in Fleet Footed or Vigor that isn't considered in the spreadsheet DPS calculation.
EDIT: And the Wound/Instant thing can't be right, can it? That would be too weird.
I am planning on going 2/2 Quick Recovery and 1/1 Vigor instead of 3/3 Ruthlessness. Main reason why was that during my tests on the PTR, I kept wasting a lot of CPs. Ruthlessness is only beneficial when you don't crit on Mutilate... and what is the chance on both mutilates not critting? Most every rogue has 25% or more crit BEFORE Puncturing Wounds (Taking crit chance up to 40% easily on Mutilates).
@ 40% crit = 87.04% of the time Ruthlessness is wasted.
@ 45% crit = 90.85% of the time Ruthlessness is wasted.
@ 50% crit = 93.75% of the time Ruthlessness is wasted.
Rupp, the reason to take Ruthlessness is for the benefit of being able to do only a single Mutilate between finishers and using 4-CP finishers instead of 5. It has been shown to be a dps increase over Mutilating twice and doing a 5-CP finisher.
Um, can anyone else comment on this? because so far, it does say envenom and imp poisons are up to 25%.
and it also says Find weakness is back to 3/6/9%
But the notes state also that vitality is at 25%, and that blade twisting gives Sinster strike damage, and that focused attacks is also at 2 enegery, as well as Aggresion being Tier 1, which is knew to me.
These seem to be odd contradictions right?
How possible is it that Imp poisons and evenom are back to the way they were before?
I guess we won't know till servers come back up for certain.
This would be a very significant boost for Mutilate, putting it clearly ahead of Combat even on non-murderable mobs, at least for now.
I pointed the relative strength of wound and instant earlier in the thread, and others agreed. I think there may also be AP scaling benefits to instant over wound, but I don't know at what the points of inflection are... specifically at what point it becomes worthwhile spending talent points in improved poisons and using instant poison at all.
I noticed the math posts below, so basically WP is better than IP untalented, but IP better talented... but for leveling, would it be worth it to invest 5 talent points into that? Especially considering you could use dual wound but not dual instant (without deadly brew).
The play style would involve using dual wound and kidney shot/eviscerate(glyphed) as finishers. There's one point in deadly brew just to ensure crippling procs for harder solo fights and world pvp.
The only question I have about this would be whether to pick up CttC for chain pulling so you don't have to open with snd after cheap shot, and for snd upkeep in instances. I don't know what would be best to sacrifice to get it. I'm thinking some combination from the following talents: master poisoner, murder, ruthlessness, remorseless attacks, or vigor.
Would this play style be more beneficial for leveling over using deadly poison and envenom? I found when leveling to 65 with mutilate that if I used deadly on one hand and instant on another, it wasn't stacking fast enough for my tastes... particularly with deadly not proccing before cheap shot ends.
With the evisc glyph, it may be close enough dmg to take to get the flexibility of not having a dotted target.
I just wanted to call out this statement, because while it's generally true in 2.X, it is no longer widely true in 3.0. Once you're above the poison hit cap, hit is not necessarily the best individual stat - for instance, socketing for hit isn't necessarily the way to go. Agi, AP, and Crit are increasing in value relative to hit, such that for some rogues, Agi may well be a better individual stat. To figure out whether you're in this category, I recommend use of, that's right, you guessed it, a spreadsheet.
Is there an updated version of a spreadsheet for level 70 @ 3.02 that allows the use of the fast daggers in MH? I've been tweaking stuff on Vulajin's BC 0.4.1 spreadsheet but it doesn't allow equipping the fast daggers in the MH slot.
We're stuck at the moment on the relative merits of Vigor, Fleet Footed, Quick Recovery and Ruthlessness. We have three points to spend between these talents. According to Vulajin's spreadsheet, optimal DPS can be gained by putting 1 point in Ruthlessness and the other 2 in Quick Recovery, but i'm interested if people think there's an argument for spending any of these points in Fleet Footed or Vigor that isn't considered in the spreadsheet DPS calculation.
EDIT: And the Wound/Instant thing can't be right, can it? That would be too weird.
sp00n and swelt were referring to the use of wound vs instant in a combat build. It does seem right now that if you are not using Envenom as a finisher, wound is outdamaging IP due to the higher base proc rate. However, the two poisons also scale differently with AP. To find out which is right for you, you should plug your gear and talents directly into sp00n's updated spreadsheet on the spreadsheet thread.
As for Fleet Footed, it is not taken into account in the spreadsheet of course, but theorycrafters generally acknowledge it as a competitive talent on any fight that requires movement.
Originally Posted by Ohbasan
Is there an updated version of a spreadsheet for level 70 @ 3.02 that allows the use of the fast daggers in MH? I've been tweaking stuff on Vulajin's BC 0.4.1 spreadsheet but it doesn't allow equipping the fast daggers in the MH slot.
But I am unsure where to put the last 5 points. Either in relentless strikes, or in remorseless and (imp evisc or ruthlessness).
The reason I'm doubting relentless strikes for leveling at first is that I'll rarely use more than a 3 point kidney shot, though I guess depending on the mob you could just ss a few times and eviscerate.
But I am unsure where to put the last 5 points. Either in relentless strikes, or in remorseless and (imp evisc or ruthlessness).
The reason I'm doubting relentless strikes for leveling at first is that I'll rarely use more than a 3 point kidney shot, though I guess depending on the mob you could just ss a few times and eviscerate.
I'd lean towards relentless strikes, simply because it gets you up the Sub tree to Camouflage and Dirty Tricks - the best 5 points of filler you could take for soloing/levelling- on the way to Serrated Blades.
I'm in a guild that is trying to down M'uru....granted the fight will be retardly easy after this patch...but still that is the focus of my 3.0 talent spec. With that in mind which lvl 70 sword spec talent would be best? (I don't have any notable daggers worth going mut with)
Questions that remain open for me.
is 5/5 relentless strikes + Killing spree better than...
3/3 Ruthlessness + 2/2 Blood Splatter + (Vigor or Killing Spree)
other question is if given the choice which is better, Vigor or Killing Spree.
yeah, thats what I was looking for, thanks!!
....I guess i shouldn't ask more than one question at a time tho...the one you care least about always gets answered and the one you care about gets buried.
yeah, thats what I was looking for, thanks!!
....I guess i shouldn't ask more than one question at a time tho...the one you care least about always gets answered and the one you care about gets buried.
Relentless should let you squeeze out 3 finisher cycles depending on your gear.
Concerns about Killing Spree
Ok when i tested it out on the dummies in SW it seemed do do between 2500-3500 damage. It seemed to crit much less than my actual crit rate. Is this a mechanic problem or just bad luck? It also appears it is stictly weapon damage with no modifiers...which is how it reads anyways. Wishful thinking would be to add some ap damage as well but meh.
So 2500-3500 = 20-30 sustained dps over the 2 minute cd period.
Costs no energy which originally looked very sexy but this is where my concerns come in.....
Do you need 2 targets to be able to jump back and forth between at least or can this be used on solo mobs and get all 5 attacks in....never got a chance to test this
Secondly when this is used on multiple mobs the main problem I see is when the 5th attack completes you really have no friggin idea where you are and could easily take 1 second or considerably more to get back to main dps target and the dps loss from not attacking could very well be a overall dps loss even considering the free damage not to mention possible energy capping. If this can be used on solo mobs then this is a non issue because then you just use on solo mobs or AOE situations where particular dps target doesn't matter greatly.
Does this stop auto-attacking? It appeared to me that when I just used killing spree it was not auto-attacking! If this is the case then even though this is a free(non energy) attack so are white hits....which in roughly the same 2.5 secs would get you 1 mh hit and 2 oh hits!
It just seems that for a 51 point talent 20-30 dps is kinda weak (1 1/2-2% dps improvement) not even counting the potential loss if auto-attacks stop!
What am I missing here or did Blizzard gimp the 51 point talent for combat??
I may be assuming wrong but from that post it feels like everything has been rolled back to the patch where poisons were completely broken. This also means that very likely the spreadsheet wont be accurate from today till Expansion day.
Concerns about Killing Spree
Ok when i tested it out on the dummies in SW it seemed do do between 2500-3500 damage. It seemed to crit much less than my actual crit rate. Is this a mechanic problem or just bad luck? It also appears it is stictly weapon damage with no modifiers...which is how it reads anyways. Wishful thinking would be to add some ap damage as well but meh.
So 2500-3500 = 20-30 sustained dps over the 2 minute cd period.
Costs no energy which originally looked very sexy but this is where my concerns come in.....
Do you need 2 targets to be able to jump back and forth between at least or can this be used on solo mobs and get all 5 attacks in....never got a chance to test this
Secondly when this is used on multiple mobs the main problem I see is when the 5th attack completes you really have no friggin idea where you are and could easily take 1 second or considerably more to get back to main dps target and the dps loss from not attacking could very well be a overall dps loss even considering the free damage not to mention possible energy capping. If this can be used on solo mobs then this is a non issue because then you just use on solo mobs or AOE situations where particular dps target doesn't matter greatly.
Does this stop auto-attacking? It appeared to me that when I just used killing spree it was not auto-attacking! If this is the case then even though this is a free(non energy) attack so are white hits....which in roughly the same 2.5 secs would get you 1 mh hit and 2 oh hits!
It just seems that for a 51 point talent 20-30 dps is kinda weak (1 1/2-2% dps improvement) not even counting the potential loss if auto-attacks stop!
What am I missing here or did Blizzard gimp the 51 point talent for combat??
It can be used on a single target, and it does not stop your auto attack timer. I haven't heard that it uses just raw weapon dmg without any ap modifiers, but it could be true since I haven't tested it myself.
I may be assuming wrong but from that post it feels like everything has been rolled back to the patch where poisons were completely broken. So recent combat buffs and mutilate nerfs are very likely gone. This also means that very likely the spreadsheet wont be accurate from today till Expansion day.
Blizzard very frequently does not update patch notes as they make changes in the beta or on PTR; there have been any number of previous instances where they released patch notes that were correct for the beginning of a PTR cycle but were inaccurate for the actually released build. So until the servers come back up and we can actually check, it seems premature to assume that anything has been rolled back.
10/14/08, 10:17 AM
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