All 5 attacks on the same target. Can test this on a target dummy, just have to pick a far back one and make sure you're as far away from other dummies too.

In multiple mob situations you're already in a spot where you can't do optimal dps. Loss of combo points, energy capping, loss of SnD, etc.

It's supposed to continue auto attacks based on last beta patch.

Well it was more to the fact that GC posting something that amazes me because they are patching something they are admitting isn't ready so why bother just not push it

I must be missing it, but I'm trying to find what you guys decided on would be the best, at this time, for a combat sword specced rogue?

I've read through a ton of this thread, but I must be missing it

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

There you go. There are 4 points of filler that I put into endurance and imp sprint. You are welcome to put them wherever you want instead that fits.

Are there any numbers how good or bad Honor Among Thieves is? I guess we will see or hear after patch goes live, but out of curiosity, do you think there might be spot for Deep Subtlety rogue in raids? My wild bet is that the new modifiers for SS (Aggression, Blade Twisting) have driven SS far away from Hemorrhage efficiency.

Even Slaughter from the Shadows seems to be really weak for Hemo compared the benefit from using Backstab. It's still better than anything else you can spend points on after going Deep Subtlety for Honor Among Thieves.

So if there ain't any real use for Hemorrhage in raids, what use it does have? Are developers thinking that you go Deep Subtlety with daggers and occasionally use Hemorrhage for the effect and maybe some combo points? I have hard time even figuring decent Hemo based PvP build.

Build

Hemo specs were behind Combat SS prior to the more recent Combat SS changes. The changes have only further increased the gap between the two.

EDIT: As for the use, pretty much Hemo has virtually no use in PvE at the moment. It's hard to argue against it for PvP though...the positional requirement of BS makes it rather painful.

I believe wound poison actually scales with attack power exactly as fast as instant poison does. No matter what your attack level value, wound poison will do more DPS. This is because of its much higher proc rate - you have to multiply the attack power scaling of each poison by its expected number of procs.

Instant poison scales at 0.1 AP with a 20% proc rate
Wound poison scales at 0.04 AP at a 50% proc rate.

this is true, so long as there are no modifiers affecting either the procrate or dmg of Instant Poison independently of Wound. That means any points in improved poisons, or the use of Envenom, will very quickly begin to tilt things into Instant Poison's favor.

edit: I need to learn to read tooltips better. Thanks for the correction!

Wouldn't vile poisons affect wound poison as well? So only imp poisons would make it pull ahead.

Ok here is small summary that I wrote for us on our guild forum (I got info for it on elite jerks).. hope it will help some of you that are still stuck on muru and still cares about dps(raid wise) ... yeah I am sry for any mistakes and if I am wrong at something, ask moderator to update it change it (as I am not often here on this forum) and yeah feel free to copy paste it if you want.

Yeah I was testing my DPS on Dps spreadsheet (link) with BT, SWP gear (3/5).. basicly as it is on armory.

Hope i used most optimal cycles:
Muti: 5r/5e (CttC) (no need for SnD as it is refreshed thanks to Cut to the Chase talent)
Combat Swords: 5s/5r - so AtoL is on most of the time
__________________________________________________________________________________

Ok I was reading and trying out dps spreadsheet all day long so here is what I found:
- hit cap for poisons is 177
- hit got nerfed badly and it is not worh going for only hit anymore

Glyphs:

Glyphs - Major

Swords:

Glyph of Sinister Strike (Req. lvl. 15) - Your Sinister Strike critical strikes have a 40% chance to add an additional combo point.
Glyph of Slice and Dice (Req. lvl. 15) - Increases the duration of Slice and Dice by 3 sec.

Mutilate:

I don't really know, there is no Mutilate specific glyph and the Rupture glyph requires Northrend herbs to make so I would probably just go for the Slice and Dice one.

Glyphs - Minor
Glyph of Blurred Speed (Req. lvl. 15) - Enables you to walk on water while your Sprint ability is active.
Glyph of Safe Fall (Req. lvl. 40) - Increases the distance your Safe Fall ability allows you to fall without taking damage.
Glyph of Vanish (Req. lvl. 22) - Increases your movement speed by 30% while the Vanish effect is active.



Combat Swords:

Talent build

Gemming:
Ok from patch on there will be some changes in ours stats weights.. here is how it goes:
Agi > Ap > Crit >= Hit

Sockets:
red: 10 Agi, 20 Ap
yellow: 5 Agi + 5 Hit worked better then 10 Ap + 5 Crit for me
blue: if u go for bonus go for 5 Agi + 7 Sta otherwise 10 Agi or 20 AP

Trinkets:
[Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] got buffed alot if u didnt had it before it is "must have" now.
[Blackened Naaru Sliver]>[Dragonspine Trophy]>[Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality]>[Shard of Contempt]

Poison:
MH: instant .. some say wound is better ..I'll just wait that guys do some testing.
OH: deadly

Mutilate:

Talent build

Wepons
Yeah there is some big change at Mutilate and you should go for fast MH with instant on it (as overall instant dps > bigger mutilate dps) so [Fang of Kalecgos]>[Crux of the Apocalypse]

For OHs I didn't check things so much but I ll updated it later.

Gemming:
Ok becouse of Focused Attacks, stats weights are quite diffrent:
Agi > Crit,Ap ... Hit isn't even an option for Mutilate as u get enough hit for poisen cap from gear anyway (t6 & SWP gear).

red: 10 Agi
yellow: 10 Ap + 5 Crit
blue: if u go for bonus go for 5 Agi + 7 Sta otherwise 10 Agi or 20 AP

Trinkets:
[Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] got buffed alot if u didnt had it before it is must have now espacialy for Mutilate.
[Blackened Naaru Sliver]>[Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality]>[Shard of Contempt]>[Dragonspine Trophy]

Poison:
MH: instant
OH: deadly



Overall:
So combat is better on mobs that murder (talent) doesn't work on (3092,45 DPS for me with [Blade of Infamy] and [Warglaive of Azzinoth] ) and it is lot easyer to play.

Mutilate is lot harder to play but DPS is bigger on mobs where murder (talent) works on ( 2947,53 DPS and 3143,66 DPS on murder target for me with [Fang of Kalecgos] and [Boundless Agony])


I would try mutilate for PvE but as I would need to regem a lot more then on combat spec and in SWP there is lot of Demon bosses where murder just doesn't work so I'll just go on with Combat sword and maybe go mutilate for lvling.

Yeah and i suggest you play with gems and gear on DPS spreadsheet for more excat result - link

UPDATE (10/15/2008 11 A.M. ): Yeah sry for poison mistake i had originaly set it on deadly but after i change it to instant it was showing a bigger DPS ... don't now why probably there isn't restriction for Envenom use or something and I totaly forgot that envenom cant be used without deadly poison.

Yeah I wrote wrong cycle for Mutilate... I fix it now.

It should be noted that this will not be the best combination as with instant/instant you will be unable to use envenom and, thus, be forced to use the inferior eviscerate as your CttC finisher instead.

As I understand it from my guildies whom I've already put in an order for Major Glyphs - SS and SnD wont be available until WOLK anyway. Whilst the herbs are mid lvl the master trainer, Professor Pallin, is in Daralan and the Heavy Parchment is only sold in Northrend.

On the beta the Heavy Parchment was also being sold in Orgrimmar, and I can assume on every other inscription supplies vendor (whereas the Wrath parchment obviously wasn't).

Tnx for info guys and sry for sucky grammar and stuff.. I ll update it/upgrade it tommorow need to go to sleep now.. and yeah as I said..I post this on our guild forum so was wroten a bit fast. I did it in the first place as i saw lot of ppl to ask same questions over and over again.

Are the rumors true that an older patch got applied ? If wowinsider is right then we still have one talent that should put Mutilate over the top:

3.0.2 Patch Notes [Updated x2] - WOW Insider

Finishers for Combat and Mut builds
OK for Mut build I was having trouble on the ptr with S&D dropping off(yes I had the S&D glyph also btw) after a 5 pt rupture followed by a 5 point envenom. Sometimes I could renew my S&D but sometimes it was cutting it so close S&D would drop. Also are 3 point envenoms/rupture worthwhile or even 4 point ruptures? Since potentially a mut can generate 3 cp's and effectively lose a cp. So what are the preferred finishers? Get S&D up, 4-5 point rupture, 4-5 point envenom in that order and so on or just get S&D up and envenom every 4-5cp with energy pooled(possibly 3 cp envenoms)?

For Combat I'm assuming that rupture>envenom also. What are the preferred finishers for combat and are 3 point finishers ever preferred?

This. 4+ point finishers. You don't have to do 5 point ones all the time. And throw in rupture whenever you can. Again 4+ finishers.

Please try to remember the inherent skill mechanics before suggesting something like this in a guide.
Mutilate will not deal it's full Damagepotential when noone else keeps poisons up for you and you would have to use Evis instead of Envenom nerfing your DPS even further.
Also your cycle for mutilate makes no sense and even if you meant 5e/5r it is hardly optimal.

It's not out of the ordinary for Blizzard to push a patch without updating patch notes. All signs point to today's patch being the most up-to-date build on the PTR, despite the out-of-date patch notes.

Edit: Asked a question of Enu but worked out the answer myself.

Also, to Vulajin: I'm getting a 15 or so dps increase of AToL over DST for fist/sword build in your sheet as well, is it working correctly? I'm only concerned because of Aldriana's statement about it earlier in the thread.

For 5/51/5 Combat and with my gear spreadsheet shows Rupture > Eviscerate > Envenom and it makes sense when you don't have Improved Poisons helping re stacking Deadly Poison up.

Also what I heard from guild mate is that 5s/5r would be the best cycle for Combat. Considering that Rupture glyph is WotLK stuff and Eviscerate glyph isn't, it seems to be best doing 5s/5r/5evi cycle instead. Even with Rupture glyph 5s/5r seems to surpass 5s/5r/5evi only if the target has more than 6800 armor. This probably varies according to different gear levels.

Edit: Also about gemming for Combat. Above 265 hit rating Wicked Pyrestone seems to be best for yellow slot. If you go under 265 hit rating Rigid Lionseye and Glinting Pyrestone seem to be better than Wicked Pyrestone. Delicate Crimson Spinel > Bright Crimson Spinel, probably due added crit to benefit PotW (don't forget added dodge/armor to benefit UA either). Can anyone confirm these before I go regemming my gear?

the new icehud shows smoother energy regen as well.