Mydwych

Okay, I guess the question I should have asked on the last page was:

According to the tooltips, in v3.x, with untalented Improved Poisons, at 70, the highest available rank of Wound Poison gives better DPS than the highest available rank of Instant Poison. Has this been observed in-game?

 

Enu

Ok I update my post and fix it :P.

Yeah about gemming for Combat i doubt there is some cap where you should use Wicked Pyrestone in my case I had 229 hit and 1 Wicked Pyrestone .. if I change it with Glinting Pyrestone my DPS got lower and if I add enother Wicked Pyrestone it get lower again so overall i dobut there is some precise rule about when to gem this and when to gem that.. overall I think everyone should play a bit with spreadsheet for best balance of gems.

 

Cottonface

At 2500 Attack Power, 30 Attack per minute MH, 60 Attack per minute OH, no hit/mitigation discrimination

Wound Poison V
Each strike has a 50% chance of poisoning the enemy, causing [112 + 0.04 * AP] Nature damage and reducing all healing effects used on them by 50% for 15 sec.

WP: [112 + 0.04*2500]*0.5 = 107 dmg --- MH (3210) / OH (6420)

Instant Poison VII
Each strike has a 20% chance of poisoning the enemy which instantly inflicts [161 + 0.10 * AP] Nature damage.

IP: [161 + 0.1*2500]*0.2 = 82.2 dmg --- MH (2466) / OH (4932)
IP 5/5 imp: [161 + 0.1*2500]*0.3 = 123.3 dmg --- MH (3699) / OH (7398)
IP 2/2 vile 5/5 imp: [161 + 0.1*2500]*0.3*1.2 = 221.94 dmg --- MH (4438.8) / OH (8877.6)

Deadly Poison VII
Each strike has a 30% chance of poisoning the enemy for [204 + 0.08 * AP] Nature damage over 12 sec. Stacks up to 5 times on a single target.

DP: [204 + 0.08*2500]*0.3*5*(60/12) = 3030
DP 2/2 vile: [204 + 0.08*2500]*0.4*5*(60/12)*1.2 = 3636

As such, it does look like Wound Poison is better than both IP and DP, and IP will at 36 attack per minute become better than DP. But this is purely napkin math, so it should be verified.

EDIT: Improved poison @ 10% instead of false patch note 25%

 

Drzivago

Do u mean Attack per Second or per Minute ?

Also i believe the current 5/5 Imp Poisons gives a total of 10%.

 

Cottonface

Patch notes 3.0.2

Improved Poisons (Assassination) now increases chance to apply poisons by 5/10/15/20/25%.

 

ekval

This has been proven to be Patch Note flaw in post936362.

 

Drzivago

As written several times in the previous pages, Patch notes of 3.0.2 are quite possibly outdated and do not correspond to the patch itself. Browse back a few pages and you will see a ScrShot of it as evidence that it is indeed 10%.

 

sp00n

So adjusting for a 10% modifier with Improved Poison we get:

Talents	Formula	Damage	MH	OH
WP 0/5 imp:	[112 + 0.04*2500]*0.5	= 107	3210	6420
IP 5/5 imp:	[161 + 0.1*2500]*0.3	= 123.3	3699	7398
IP 2/2 vile 5/5 imp:	[161 + 0.1*2500]*0.3*1.2	= 147.96	4438.8	8877.6

 

Hidden

The talent improvements affect Wounding Poison as well, while it's not that much , it's still better than Instant Poison at 2500 AP.

5/5 Imp. Poisons breakeven point:
112*0.6+0.04*0.6*AP=161*0.3+0.1*0.3*AP => 67.2+0.024*AP=48.3+0.03*AP => 18.9=0.006*AP => AP=3150
4/5:
19.88=0.0048*AP => AP=4141.667

So with 5/5 Imp. Poisons, the breakeven point is at 3150 AP, below that Wounding Poison is better, above that Instant Poison is better. The less points you have in Imp. Poisons, the higher the breakeven point is, with 0/5 Imp. Poisons, Wounding is always better. Vile Poisons doesn't change the results in any way.

 

Ashvael

One thing I'm rather worried about right now is if we're aiming for more crit (in form of agi or 10 ap / 5 crit gems and AToL (which I hadn't used before)) and less hit than before, won't we be crit capped in most of the situations for our white hits in form of glancing blows? It may be that I'm just understanding game mechanics wrong and am being stupid right now, but you guys could maybe help me out with that concern. :p

 

• Maestroquark

Quick note, it appears Blizzard nerfed Duskbat Drape

It's now +10 hit instead of reducing fall damage. Since the glyph is slightly less effective than the cloak was, effective safe fall distance is now less if you used the cloak.

What are you waiting for, a certain shade of green?

 

gokpog

Improved Poisons has no effect on Wound Poison, at least if this post is correct: PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion

 

sp00n

True. Improved Poisons only affects Instant and Deadly.


I already calculated the break even points for WP/IP here: PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion
It is
0.3*(161+0.1*AP) = 0.5*(112+0.04*AP)
48.3 + 0.02*AP + 0.01*AP = 56 + 0.02*AP
0.01*AP = 7.7
AP = 770

No! There goes my skydiving plan.

 

Leto

Looking at these numbers I'm curious about something...


Last night on live I was testing out mutilate on the dummies in stormwind, and recount had my avg IP hit as ~450 dmg... that seems significantly higher than the numbers based on the formula used here. The formula would put my posion dmg at around 360.

Did they nerf IP VII compared to 2.4? I didn't buy new poisons, I just used the ones I had in my bag already.

Rogue at heart.

 

Gograh

We did a Gruul for fun yesterday to check the HP nerf (needless to say, he was melted).
Using deadly on the main hand and wound on the offhand, my top 3 damaging abilities were: auto-attack, mutilate and wound poison, and the third got a respectable chunk. I will be doing Sunwell today for more testing.

Reading some of the last pages I could not find why would fast/fast daggers be better than slow ones. (I read most people agreed on the subject, by using spreadsheets) but I am curious about why is that true.

Edit: poison order was wrong

 

Bartok_C

fast daggers means more poison procs and more energy gain from Focused Attacks. This dps boost is more than wear slow dagger for more damage on mutilate. More Poisons and Energy >> More Mutilate Damage

 

sp00n

Did you have AP procs, where there any damage increasing debuffs on the dummy, did you factor in crits in your average number?
I'm still not able to log in on my main, but the tool tip for IP6 was consistent with the one from wowhead. But tool tips may be wrong of course.

 

Leto

No procs, no cd's used, trinkets or anything. I was the only person attacking the dummy, so there were no debuffs on it. I did account for crits, as recount separates them by default. The average crit was over 650.

Rogue at heart.

 

RedOtto

Big thanks to those people who have been kind enough to summarize and make posts like the one above for those of us unable to follow line by line every discussion in this thread.

Re Combat swords spec: Could someone link me to the maths that makes 5 points in Relentless Strikes worth more than 3 points there and 2 points in Blood Splatter. A 30% boost in Rupture damage, to say nothing of one of the better openers seems to pretty good and a 70% chance of +25 energy is not too shabby? My napkin maths just got covered in coffee, it's late here and the realms are still not all up.

With grateful thanks

 

Raiid

The relative values of most pertinent talents can be found here.

PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion

 

RedOtto

Thanks for prompt response

 

Leto

Rupture accounts for maybe 10% of your dmg, so lets just say a 3% increase in dmg by taking blood spatter.

The extra energy from relentless strikes however allows you to better perform 3 finisher cycles, which will account for a larger than 3% increase over using a 2 finisher cycle.


Now this is just speaking generally... it may be different for you and your gear, so just plug everything into the spreadsheet and see how the different talent changes affect your dps, cycle uptime, etc.

Rogue at heart.

 

Demi9OD

Can someone with better combat log knowledge determine whether this is still the case? KS does not trigger BF attacks? There is so much synergy to be had there if they get it working / decide to implement it.

 

Roywyn

Instant Poison VII (level 68) does 161-215 + 0.1*AP in damage.
See Instant Poison VII - Spell - World of Warcraft under effect, or try it in game.

Instant Poison does have a damage range, the average damage is 188 + 0.1*AP.


The other formulae for Wound and Deadly Poison listed are correct.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

tetracycloide

As a general rule the difference between 100% and 70%, or any % less than 100, is significantly more in practice than 30%. Predictability and low variance is more important now than it ever has been before with the glyph and regen mechanics changing to allow weaving in an occasional third finisher. Having a 100% chance to get 25 energy back allows the player to move on to the next decision in the cycle much sooner instead of having to prepare for two possible outcomes and reacting to whichever one actually occurs. For my own play I would be comfortable trading away slightly higher DPS talents just to remove the variance introduced by short changing relentless strikes even more so with strictly inferior talents like blood spater.

My vanity is justified.