Thanks will check it out - must have missed it amongst the 139 pages of the thread

What kind of DPS values are you getting on this spreadsheet?
I made no changes to the gear, and found that the best DPS I could on the spreadsheet for a level 80 was (surprisingly) with Shiv.
Set the attack to Shiv, rotation to 3s/5r/5e, glyphs of shiv/rupture/SnD and the spec is 18/51/2 (figure it out).
I haven't been able to top this number with any typical combat specs or with mutilate. I wonder if I am missing something or if Shiv really is the best. Of course, changing the gear may put a different spec on top. By the way, the number I'm talking is 5150 ish. Anyone get anything higher with the "default" spreadsheet gear and a SS or muti spec?

Thinking about the Expertise discussion from several pages back, I kind of feel like those Mutilate EP numbers from several pages back undervalue Expertise, at least going by Vulajin's Spreadsheet.

Take my current gear: here

Keep everything on the default settings except turn off "use Tricks on cooldown." Set the cycle to 4n/4r.

The DPS value you get is like 5230-something.

Now replace my Stalk-Skin Belt with [Jorach's Crocolisk Skin Belt]. Socket it with 2x Precise Scarlet Rubies.

Now, go through all my Red gems and switch them to Precise Scarlet Rubies. Take out the Blue gem in my BP and replace it with a Precise Scarlet Ruby. Replace both Yellow gems with Accurate Monarch Topazes. Replace the Blue gem in my Legs with Guardian's Twilight Opal. So basically, I've 100% stacked Expertise instead of AP. My predicted DPS value is still about the same, in fact slightly higher, 5239. But my Expertise went from 5 to 23, which is really significant for your cycles.

I realized some of the reason why it's higher was because I had a couple of clear upgrades with that regem, so I went back and switched all those gems in this new configuration to +AP ones. So Bright Scarlet Rubies, Wicked Monarch Topazes, and a Balanced Twilight Opal. The DPS actually went down by 3 - 5236.

AND, these calculations are all with the assumption of a 4n/4r. It's not going to take into account subsequent Evenoms for each Rupture, which have the potential to get dodged.

So, based on all that I don't see a compelling reason to stack AP gems instead of Expertise ones, at least when you're at my gear level. I'd think even a slight 20-30 DPS loss for capping Expertise would be more than worth it, but now I'm seeing it's calculated as even being better.

How would exactly a loss of dps be classed as "worth it"? Because it makes the cycles slightly smoother? Under that logic you might as well spec combat rather than mutilate because there's not as much of a dps difference as all that and the cycles are simpler.

Capped hit/expertise aren't magical "must have" numbers. They're inflection points where stats stop being as profitable to stack. It was accepted that hit was the best individual stat of TBC for a rogue, and only in that sense did was it logical to stack it to cap, but accepting a dps hit just to cap on expertise is a fool's errand.

I use Dotimer for showing all my timers and it is awsome.

I think it would only be a dps loss on the spreadsheet mainly. Without the expertise, you will get a dodge or parry eventually, so you have to account for that in your cycles as the penalty for letting snd drop is too great. I found myself using envenom with around 3 or 4 seconds left on snd, to allow time to refresh if a dodge happens without letting snd drop.


Thank you, it just didn't occur to me that hfb would be modifying the poison procs, even though it makes complete sense.

It really is all about the glyph and energy queuing. After I got the glyph, I found it much easier to maintain the cycles. For me at least, I couldn't just jump into an n/r cycle, I had to refresh snd enough such that I could queue energy before the envenom, so that I could rupture very soon after the envenom.

It really is astounding the difference between good and bad play with mutilate. Once I setup needtoknow, got the snd glyph, and improved cycle logic, I saw a ~40% increase in my dps on the dummies. It was a lot easier maintaining with needtoknow, but I still have to test in an actual raid environment to see what sort of difficulty I have.

Do either of those refresh Slice and Dice bars when Envenom/Eviscerate is used with Cut to the Chase? Cutup (Julienne) wasn't working for CttC in yesterday's version from WoWInterface.

And to the poster farther up the page, XPerl works for fluid energy regen nicely, I dislike the frames in general but I'm willing to cave as it's at least a step up from default frames.

I have to test if dotimer refresh slice and dice but i use pitbull for frames and it looks nice too.

NTK did while I was testing on the PTR. I see no reason why it shouldn't do now.
As for ClassTimers, no idea. It wasn't working by the time I was on the PTR, and on live I have replaced it now completely with NTK.

I downloaded DiscoDice from wow.curse.com yesterday and it works great for me. It has a good Sap timer, and has bars for pretty much every rogue ability including energy, poisons, slice n dice, rupture, find weakness, expose armor, etc. Even has a combo points display.

I disabled everything but slice, rupture, and sap. That's all I wanted it to display. But it can do much more than that.

After first night of playing mutilate i was in strange situation when it comes to opening. Regular cycles ware ok,
but setting it up was different story. Thing confusing me most is: mutilate is energy more efficient than sinister,
so is it ok to think that opening with 1shiv(for DP stack)followed by muti and than SnD, and hoping increased
chance for RS to proc will make up for 1-1.5 sec(or maybe more, probably depend if overkill or not) of dps without SnD?
Or combat opener works with ( is best for) assassination build.
Tried to make some calculations on it but my math knowledge lvl is poor.

In regards to the usefulness for Killing Spree in Sunwell raiding, it is rather situational of course, but still has good potential on most boss fights, along with being worth a great laugh when combined with Blade Flurry on trash.

On Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, Twins and Muru it's rather harmless to use if timed properly around dangerous positioning related boss abilities, like Burn, Encapsulate, Gas Nova, and so forth.
On Kil'Jaeden, however, it puts you directly inside of him, thus getting you punted away once it ends. With the punt, it is potentially a DPS loss, as you have to spend a few seconds getting back in melee range of the boss.

So what is the "proper" way to play a Mutilate spec'd rogue? What is the main combo builder and what rotations do you use and maintain with the new talents?

Last night we ran Kara, which I must say feels much more like a 5man zone then a raid zone and I'm sure most of you late T5 / T6 guilds already felt that way but yeah... Its a joke now, even for us T4 newbs. On trash AoE fights I was hitting right around 2600 DPS in my current gear thanks to the changes... gotta love Killing spree. I ended up tanking Attunemen / Midnight (phase 3) and still ended the fight (frontal attacks) with 1800 dps.

So whats this gotta do with learning Mutilate? Well I still hear that Mutilate is the "prime" spec for raid DPS. So I think I will buy both badge daggers, mongoose them and try it out the correct way, instead of using brewfest beer bottles :P

From what I read the proper rotation is 4+r 4+en 4+ev, with a 1pt SnD at the start and never letting it drop through CttC. Shiv with offhand IP as prime combo builder... but then it brings me to the main issue, when do I use Mutilate.

---

On a side note, is Killing Spree currently bugged? I remember them saying that you wont be able to use your skills while in a "Killing Spree", only auto-attacks would still proc through it... but from what I seen last night you could do everything still even while in a KS, which spiked the hell out of my damage.

(Copied my post from WoW Rogue Forms... figured this was a better place to ask)

In a Mutilate build, Mutilate is your main CP builder; Shiv should not be used. For both Combat and Assassination, there are 'Shiv' builds but these have been shown to provide inferior DPS (especially now that combat was recently buffed). In an Assassination Shiv build, you should not have Mutilate so when to use it is a non-issue.

It is my understanding that you cannot perform special attacks (like Sinister Strike) while under the effects of Killing Spree but other effects that are activated before it work during the 2.5 second Killing Spree (eg, hitting Blade Flurry before Killing Spree with make all Killing Spree strikes hit an additional target).

You have been horribly misinformed, Shiv should in no way be your primary CP builder for a Mutilate build. I believe you're confusing Mutilate with Combat Shiv. Even with IP procs being what they are Shiv spam will not out-dps Mutilate as your CP builder.

Ok thanks guys... that explains it. I think I was still going off of when poisons where so OP that it was the prime choice. I will be trying out Mutilate rotations this weekend.

Also, I "seemed" to be able to activate SS while under the effects of KS, I will check my logs when I get home to verify. I could of been mistaken but it seemed to work last night...

<Off Topic>
Has anyone testing falling down from a high location and hitting KS on a mob just before you land to avoid death? Was thinking about this last night. Granted its abit off topic on the main discussion here,I think it would be interesting if you could actually pull it off.
</Off Topic>

Regarding addons, yesterday I tried SliceCommander to track S&D and hunger and it's great. You can add sounds to let you know if they are about to expired.

Great post, sorry for being such a newb... After using Combat Swords so mindlessly it got confusing trying out a new spec. I will def try this over the weekend. Should be interesting how much of a DPS change it will make.

I have needtoknow, although I havent set it up yet, no real reason to if you keep your rotations up for Combat Swords... but with Mutilate taking so much more "precision" I suspect it will be very helpful. SliceCommander sounds cool I may look at that too since I dont even have n2k running yet.

I can confirm that Dotimer refresh Slice and Dice bars when Envenom/Eviscerate is used with Cut to the Chase

This is correct.

I have also been playing around with killing spree in the new combat build, and when using it on trash mobs I will usually always pop blade flurry before killing spree to "double dip" on the AOE damage - which is a lot of fun BTW.

However, for single target boss fights, I am wondering if anyone has done any testing to determine whether or not it is optimal to use blade flurry and killing spree at the same time? In this situation perhaps one could do more damage by not stacking the buffs and using them sequentially instead.

P.S. I can confirm that the newest version of Class Timer (2.0.1) is not working with the new patch.

Since you only want to stack haste buffs, which KS is not, I see no reason to stack BF and KS on single target. Especially since you may need to reposition or fight frontal for a short amount of KS time, reducing the damage boost from BF.

In my experience during our raids last night, it's best to ignore KS when using your cooldowns and pretend you're playing in the last patch, i.e., use your BF/AR and AP trinket (if you use them) when your shamans use Heroism or after threat is stable and use KS on its own, when you know the jumping around mechanism won't hurt you. Speaking of, I've found it helpful to use our fantastic new Sprint around uses of KS to help in quick repositioning.

One note...I vote we call KS Omnislash. Kidney Shot is already our KS, that'll just get confusing. Everyone knows Omnislash, and all the rogues in my guild use Omni regardless, I didn't remember it's actual name for a while, haha.

PS - New patch is too easy. I just did BT - ZA - Kara last night, 5 hours total. What the hell.