has anyone done the math with what hand your Deadly poison should be on? ive been comparing numbers and it seems deadly poison/instant poison is the way to go, but id like some input.

Instant or Wound Poison always on the faster weapon.

Here's a silly question. Is it possible for Instant poison to outperform deadly at certain weapon speeds and AP values?
So that in that EXTREME case we end up as 2x Instant?

On raiding professions, I've noticed the regular bracer enchant got buffed to 50AP, thus LW is now only +64AP, which pretty much makes it exactly similar to Enchanting and Inscription (and BS too as long as AP is the top stat and the 20EP gems aren't in game yet)...

Does that make JC a clear leader now (+11 EPx3, not to mention socket bonueses and eliminating the need for a blue gem), at least till the 20EP gems become available?

I believe leatherworkers get an improved leg enchant too... Something like 24 AP and 14 crit higher than the alternative (I'm not sure exactly, these are ballpark numbers). This makes it better than enchanting, and that's not even considering the really nice BoP leather items you will probably be able to make. Enchanters get none of that (did they add BoP enchanter wands or something? Not that it has to do with rogues, but I thought I heard it somewhere).

LW-Leg enchants are exactly the same stats as for non-lw's they are just cheaper to craft.
Aditionally there are no BoP LW-items yet in beta.

For Combat, you usually want IP/WP MH and DP OH. For Mutilate, IP goes on the faster weapon, and DP on the slower one; in the event that both weapons are the same speed, IP goes MH and DP goes OH.

It's always been true that with enough haste and hit, IP can outpace DP. In TBC, this crossover point was never achievable (and I'm pretty sure if you looked back through the Roguecraft 101 thread, you could find numbers on this). In the expansion, that crossover point is much lower - in fact, it appears to me to be fairly common for IP to do more damage than DP. The challenge is that if you want to run IP/IP, you can no longer envenom. So the true comparison is IP/IP with Eviscerate versus IP/DP with Envenom, which proves to be a much harder comparison, and one that will require some investigation to determine which is actually better.

While your advice to use the spreadsheet is correct, your listed ranking is a bit off. I believe the ranking is closer to Agi >= AP > Expertise > Hit (below poison hit cap) > Crit > Haste > Hit (above poison hit cap) > ArPen. But don't quote me on that - use the spreadsheet.

Hmm, having given it some thought. I think the option is not quite good, if you are running mutilate, then the loss of deadly poison is catastrophic( depending on play style, spec and other live members of the raid). Thus, to be on the safe side, I'd not try that as mutilate which kinda brings the whole venture to a stop, since not one other spec can afford to spend points that deep in the assassination tree to actually get to the state where Instant would be able to outdps deadly( improved poisons being the main cause). And not to even mention that loosing envenom costs you a lot of poison application. It may very well be that Ip/Ip viability is unreachable given current gear/stat availability( on the beta).

There was some talk awhile ago in this thread about using Vanish with Mutilate, and besides learning that it didn't effect the autoswing, and that it wasn't worth trying to get Elusiveness, I believe that was the end of the discussion.

Suppose you are a Nightelf Rogue and you have pooled a bunch of energy, you have 4 combo points, and you don't expect your target to move for 6 seconds. Would it be advantageous to Shadowmeld, Stealth, Garrote, Finish, and then try to get as many Mutilate/Finishers in during those 6 seconds of Overkill?

As a very coarse estimation, if you were able to use 6 yellow abilities during those 6 seconds, that would be 60 energy "saved" every 2 minutes (2 min cooldown for Shadowmeld), or 5% of the energy you would gain from normal energy regeneration (outside of Focused Attacks) during that time.

I realize that there are other things going on. For example, having to wait to Mutilate before your deadly is reapplied, and possible loss of autoattack time. The question remains: Under the circumstances described, does Shadowmeld increase your DPS?

I haven't seen any comments on this, I perhaps didn't go far enough back in the thread. I run a CS Human Rogue. While my DPS is still solid, just adjusting to the new rotations/changes, has anyone else noticed your aviodance seriously nerf'd and you're taking it in the teeth a lot more now?
I expected some from the changes to Dodge, but this is nuts. I'm finding if I don't dismantle early, I now longer have decent survivabilty. I'm spamming Evasion and CoS just to get through the first 10-15 secs of a fight. I'm suddenly taking a LOT more damage, forcing me to play more conservitively. Yeah, I got more HP, but hardly on scale with the damage certain classes are putting out now.

Read this. On how shadowmeld works by Vaneras

The reason why you hear so many numbers is because it depends on so many factors. Here's the way to figure it out:

The base miss rate is 17%. Precision reduces this by 1% per point. Misery/Faerie Fire Reduces this by 3%. A Draenei will reduce this by a further 1%. Based on this, you should be able to figure out how much miss rate you need to make up with hit rating.

So, for instance, if you're a Mutilate rogue, you probably don't have precision, but in raids you usually do have Misery; and as a NE rogue, it's likely that there will be a Draenei around. So that's 17-3-1 = 13% miss rate to cover with hit rating.

Then, it takes 12.62 hit rating to give 1% spell hit; hence, multiply your remaining miss rate by 12.62. So, continuing our above example, you need 12.62 * 13 = 164 hit rating to cap. Note that this depends on your faction, your raid composition, your talents, and so on - which is why it's so hard to find a standard number.

You have been incredibly helpful with all of your posts at this point on some of these newer changes. I did have two other questions though that I think you might be able to answer!

Based on your math, a standard UD Mutilate Rogue should attempt to obtain a Hit Cap of 215 (17 * 12.62 rounded up). Would this be pretty much correct to hit the poison cap and does the original hit cap really not matter anymore since mutilate wouldnt miss due to the fact its a special?

Also - What meta would still be best for this spec? The increased critical strike damage one still? I am currently full T6 and pretty much best in slot for all except Helm/Back/Shoulders (which are still T6). I would appreciate the input on this, its been helpful so far!

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet (I only skimmed through the last five pages or so, haven't read since page 120ish), but Killing Spree seems to be bugged on several ends. For starters, sometimes it gives me an 'invalid target' error out of the blue and I got to kick autoattack for it work (it's very random with that). Second, if you keep running while using it (or autorun as I do), the off-hand doesn't seem to hit. Combat log and recount seem to confirm more or less -- I get 5 hits (main hand I assume since it's generally 500+ damage) and the equivalent damage if I keep running, if I stand still and use it I get all ten hits and equivalent damage. Anyone else getting the same or do I just have a buggy combat log and recount?

I seem to be unable to accurately reproduce it -- trying out in Orgrimmar, on the 60 dummies, just me causing damage to them, just getting autorun on, running into the 60 mobs and popping KS seems to get main hand hits off. The count is definitively lower (combat log confirms it), damage per hit seems main-hand only as I said (500 hits, 1.1-1.6k crits) and no off-hand hits. Though with all the crit I got I'd need extensive logging on this to fully, fully verify but what I'm sure is it doesn't seem to be working as intended as you don't always get five main-hand/off-hand attacks (I've had it attack four times with the main-hand only). If I run into the mobs, I only get main-hand attacks, if I stand still I get both but even sometimes I get only off eight out of ten total attacks or so. 'Autoruns' with the least crits seem to gave me around 3k damage, I just had a full non-crit 10 attack standstill killing spree that churned out 4.5k damage, so I'm guessing it really isn't working as intended. They really need to change the talent and I'm hoping they keep the overall concept because I'm quite fond of it as it mixes up things a bit.

So looking at trinket options at 80, the last analysis on this came to the conclusion that the best combo for both Combat AND Mutilate were Fury of the Five Flights and Mirror of Truth.

However, I'm wondering where the newly discovered Darkmoon Card: Greatness factors into this. It appears to have a 45s internal cooldown and an extremely high proc rate when the cooldown is up (Wowhead says 35%, some testing says it may be even higher). My suspicion is that it may be better than one if not both of those trinkets.

That would appear to be the new leader, yes; assuming 50 sec between procs, it would have 30% uptime and, thus, give a benefit of 180 agility, average-case. Since Agility runs close to 2 EP for both Combat and Mutilate, it would thus weight in around 360 EP, well ahead of any of the other options.

1) Questions like this are better answered with the spreadsheet
2) There aren't really any viable alternatives, so I have a hard time imagining what else you might wish to use.

No, because you lose far more damage from not auto-attacking for those 5 seconds.

It was mentioned on the previous page that Honor Among Thieves is currently considered bugged. Has this been officially acknowledged anywhere?

I did a full ZA run last night and from my testing and log watching there it seems that it might be the case of a misleading tooltip. The 1sec cooldown seems to very much exist, but its per group member. This explains why it seems to spikey, you can get 4CP instantly, and then have to wait for that 5th while it CDs.

It also expains why when you are solo it is not bugged at all.

Any thoughts on this?

To be honest this might be complete optimism in my part since due to this talent my horrendously undergeared (never even run kara, scattering of pvp/crafted/quest gear) topped DPS the entire run and has doubled dps from where I was at prepatch (600->1200).

You aren't "not auto-attacking for those 5 seconds".

You are not auto attacking for as long as a macro'd Shadowmeld->Stealth->Garrott takes (which may need to be 2 button presses). It may not interrupt your auto attack timer at all (see tests on Vanish, a couple pages back). It may last a second. But it's certainly not 5 seconds. You aren't running around in stealth, you're Shadowmelding to proc Overkill and give yourself cheaper moves.

You're correct. With HAT, I was only required to generate 1 combo point per cycle; the other 4 would appear instantly. I had a few fun experiments with 2x DP and spamming Envenom, as the 5 stack of DP would always accumulate in the 1-2 second period it took for the 5 combo points to appear. Whilst of course the spec doesn't have much to offer in terms of PvE DPS, I saw some Envenom crits as high as 7000. Makes me wonder what I could do if I were to use a (terrible) Vile Poisons & HAT Spec. Purely experimental for the sake of seeing big envenom spam, but curious nonetheless!

I guess my information was out of date, but now I don't feel as bad about being an enchanter. Any idea where I might find an up to date list on profession-specific perks? I picked enchanting in BC because of the ring enchants and now everyone is getting something similar.

You could probably do that with MacroSequence (assuming it still works in 3.0.2):
MacroSequence : WoWInterface Downloads : Miscellaneous