Has there been a definitive answer to which build will be most raid effective from now and into WotLK. I respecced 5/51/5 as per info provided here, and am enjoying horing around with it, but a couple of rogue buddies have specc'd mutilate and seem to think their damage has gone through the roof.
I have BoJ/ZA gear, DST and WC trinkets, plus I dropped 2 of the Dire Shankers from last Brewfest which I read somewhere make respectable Mutilate daggers because they are 2.0 speed?
I think I am actually looking for some 101 advice on Combat vs Mutilate from those who actually know... plus with the level race about to start, will Combat still be the way to go until the new end-game? (all things being equal
Has there been a definitive answer to which build will be most raid effective from now and into WotLK. I respecced 5/51/5 as per info provided here, and am enjoying horing around with it, but a couple of rogue buddies have specc'd mutilate and seem to think their damage has gone through the roof.
I have BoJ/ZA gear, DST and WC trinkets, plus I dropped 2 of the Dire Shankers from last Brewfest which I read somewhere make respectable Mutilate daggers because they are 2.0 speed?
I think I am actually looking for some 101 advice on Combat vs Mutilate from those who actually know... plus with the level race about to start, will Combat still be the way to go until the new end-game? (all things being equal
You should use the spreadsheet.
Also this thread has many detailed posts on mutilate vs combat, with graphs and everything.
For Combat, you usually want IP/WP MH and DP OH. For Mutilate, IP goes on the faster weapon, and DP on the slower one; in the event that both weapons are the same speed, IP goes MH and DP goes OH.
I've been running Mutilate spec since the patch (51/5/5), and I'm finding I have to have DP on the faster of my two daggers, otherwise it doesn't always build up fast enough. At level 80, with enough talent points to get Precision, that should be less of an issue.
Why do you say IP should be in the MH if the weapons are the same speed? I can't see a reason it would make any difference which hand you put it on.
I've been running Mutilate spec since the patch (51/5/5), and I'm finding I have to have DP on the faster of my two daggers, otherwise it doesn't always build up fast enough. At level 80, with enough talent points to get Precision, that should be less of an issue.
Why do you say IP should be in the MH if the weapons are the same speed? I can't see a reason it would make any difference which hand you put it on.
This has been explained earlier in the thread but basically finishers only proc the mainhand thus you want IP on your MH if your MH is faster or the same speed as your offhand, thus giving you more IP procs. If your faster dagger can't be MH equipped (Swift Blade of Uncertainty) then you want IP on your OH for more procs.
As to your problem getting your DP stack back up, I'm not really sure what you're experiencing since Envenom increases your proc rate and if you have 5/5 Imp Poisons, then it shouldn't be an issue unless perhaps your hit rating is low. From my experience, after each envenom, my 5 stack of DP is back up in a couple seconds.
All my best comments during raids come from a book called, "How to be Witty at Parties"
Sorry if that was discussed before, is it worth using Shiv to save 5DP stack?
(combat 5/51/5)
I did 5s/5r/5e this time with KSpree breaking cycle a bit.
The only thing that sustains one through life is the consciousness of the immense inferiority of everybody else, and this is a feeling that I have always cultivated.
As far as Killing Spree goes it seems to spike my damage like crazy, esp on trash fights with Blade Flurry up. Usually ending most of them around 2800 DPS when I temp buff + killing spree. This is with all the mobs grouped together and having a bear tank, so crits are high. I find KS to also be great for low energy times. If you are fighting a single boss, use adrenaline + other temps spamming SS and keeping rotations up, then as it ends hit KS to quickly gain back more energy. It can be awkward on some fights but in some its very useful... For instance last night my guild did Zul'jin and in his eagle phase it kept me on top of him. Sure its only a 2.5s skill, i think it still has its uses.
My biggest concern is Combat DPS vs Mutilate DPS... Since i am only T4 / Badge geared I cant really do good comparisons on later zones, such as T5 / T6. I found that in an instance like BOT I was doing more DPS as combat thanks to the AoE's then I was as Mutilate. I just got my 2nd badge dagger last night so I think I will try Kara as Mutilate to see if my numbers are any higher. Are there any suggestions for rotations? When I tested it I was using Mutilate as a CP generator, SnD on first CP skill then 4+N to keep it up... also didnt let HFB drop and then 4+R... Those were pretty much only skills I used unless I had CB up then I would use it on a 5N proc for high crit.
If Mutilate truly is the "prime" choice for DPS then I suppose I will need to practice and get it down... Combat is alot more forgiving from what I have seen in posts, its easier to perform well in Combat then it is Mutilate but Mutilate surpasses Combat if you play right. Does that sound about right?
The change to Combat Potency affects absolutely nothing except Shiv builds. Blade Flurry did not proc it, Killing Spree did not proc it, Sword Spec procs are performed by the main hand so they did not proc it either.
There is really no DPS-optimal set of minor glyphs, since none of them directly affect DPS. Vanish and Sprint will definitely have their uses, but in general it's whatever you think will be most useful in a given raid.
The change is a slight nerf to Killing Spree. I have frequently seen 2 or 3 of the 5 offhand attacks proc CP, making it a great skill to use with a depleted energy bar.
Okay, I hate to be "that guy" for today, but I'm not Houdini when it comes to spreadsheets and my searches within this thread are not turning up the results.
I'm not really understanding the weight of weapon DPS and weapon speed. I went to check the spreadsheet to compare which weapon composition would yield the most DPS, but it seems the weapons available in the Main Hand and Off-Hand drop down lists are pre-defined (e.g. I can't chose the Feltooth Eviscerater or for my Main Hand). My daggers are as follows:
I'm using Feltooth off-hand, Bad Mojo main hand. I have IP running on the Feltooth, Deadly on Bad Mojo; I figured IP procs from a 1.4s dagger should outweigh from a 1.8s dagger + finishers. Now, given what my searches in this thread have turned up, there's a decent amount of hear-say that suggests I should swap my dagger positions. Can anyone drop some insight? Or, possibly instruct me on how to make the off-hand daggers available to my main hand drop down list in the spreadsheet?
Originally Posted by songster
Why do you say IP should be in the MH if the weapons are the same speed? I can't see a reason it would make any difference which hand you put it on.
Finishers hit from the main hand, and thus have a chance to proc the poison applied to the main hand. IP on the main hand means more IP procs over the course of a fight. As you can see from my above post, I'm not sure that holds true in every situation.
Christ, this patch has literally dismantled my understanding.
The change is a slight nerf to Killing Spree. I have frequently seen 2 or 3 of the 5 offhand attacks proc CP, making it a great skill to use with a depleted energy bar.
KSpree (+CPotency) is giving back average 15 energy (30 energy with BF), in addition to normal energy gain (~31 energy) & 7~8 (average) energy from CPtency from auto attack during 2.5sec.
With this nurf, KSpree can be used at energy ~ 50 w/o much of danger to capping 100 energy, while currently (with BF) its only safe blow 20.
The challenge is that if you want to run IP/IP, you can no longer envenom. So the true comparison is IP/IP with Eviscerate versus IP/DP with Envenom, which proves to be a much harder comparison, and one that will require some investigation to determine which is actually better.
IP/IP also means giving up Savage Combat raid buff. WP/WP maybe if WP is not going to be nurfed.
You're correct. With HAT, I was only required to generate 1 combo point per cycle; the other 4 would appear instantly. I had a few fun experiments with 2x DP and spamming Envenom, as the 5 stack of DP would always accumulate in the 1-2 second period it took for the 5 combo points to appear. Whilst of course the spec doesn't have much to offer in terms of PvE DPS, I saw some Envenom crits as high as 7000. Makes me wonder what I could do if I were to use a (terrible) Vile Poisons & HAT Spec. Purely experimental for the sake of seeing big envenom spam, but curious nonetheless!
This is hideous, and probably cannot hold up to an "intended" build like 51/15/5 or 15/51/5. But if you were in a stacked crit rate dual wield group, and could potentially expect 4cp/s from HAT, you could keep up SnD, rupture, and envenom if 5DP stack, evisc if not, every global. Backstab is your CP gen when you need that 5th CP, but honestly once a fight starts, between ruthlessness and HAT you would rarely even need to use BS. I don't think anything models a almost pure finisher rotation like this, and HAT will probably get nerfed, but yes, I am curious as well. I believe backstab is still more DPE than Hemo, but wasn't sure about imp evisc vs lethality, it would depend on your hit rate and how fast you could stack DP between globals. The faster your DP stack goes up, the less evisc's you would be using, and the lower the value of those talent points falls.
Okay, I hate to be "that guy" for today, but I'm not Houdini when it comes to spreadsheets and my searches within this thread are not turning up the results.
I'm not really understanding the weight of weapon DPS and weapon speed. I went to check the spreadsheet to compare which weapon composition would yield the most DPS, but it seems the weapons available in the Main Hand and Off-Hand drop down lists are pre-defined (e.g. I can't chose the Feltooth Eviscerater or for my Main Hand). My daggers are as follows:
Easy explanation on how to add OHs to the MH drop down
Originally Posted by sp00n
Because they are not present in the MH sheet.
Do add them, unhide both the MH weapon and OH weapon sheet (format/sheet/unhide - if that's a somewhat decent translation from my German Excel), add a line to the MH sheet where you want to copy the weapon to (preferably on its alphabetical position), go to the OH sheet, select the whole line where that weapon is, and copy it over to the MH sheet.
Then you can select it from the drop down list in the gear sheet.
But it doesn't represent observed behavior in-game. Now, this may be unintended, or Vaneras may just not have spelled out exactly what happens.
What happens in game is that Shadowmeld puts you out of combat. You can then re-stealth. This happens in both PvP and PvE, and if you are attacking a creature that creature will un-agro you and you can reopen on it with a stealth opener. It's exactly like Vanish, except that you can't be moving when you do it and your stealth cooldown has to be finished. It also works in arena, and I've used it before to escape.
So my original question applies:
Should you use Shadowmeld in a raid situation for more DPS?
You seem to have missed the part where Shadowmeld will only take you out of combat if you are the last person on the agro list. Solo this is always the case and probably explains your observations. However, in a raid there are few situations where you would be the last person on the agro list.
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet (I only skimmed through the last five pages or so, haven't read since page 120ish), but Killing Spree seems to be bugged on several ends. For starters, sometimes it gives me an 'invalid target' error out of the blue and I got to kick autoattack for it work
I had this as well, also when I kill something it sometimes still seems to warp me back to the dead target.
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet (I only skimmed through the last five pages or so, haven't read since page 120ish), but Killing Spree seems to be bugged on several ends. For starters, sometimes it gives me an 'invalid target' error out of the blue and I got to kick autoattack for it work (it's very random with that).
I had this as well
I've already posted a bug about 'invalid target' errors in the bug forums and gotten a blue response that they will investigate. They also locked the thread so they may have already been aware or had enough info to know what's going on. We'll just have to wait and see.
So if I have Dagger of Bad Mojo in main hand, and Prowlers Strikeblade in off hand. Should I go Dual Mongoose enchant? Also Mutilate is currently the best DPS for PvE encounters now, correct?
Mongoose is still the best weapon enchant until expansion, and even then it may be good on one of them depending on how the new ones stack.
Mutilate as of 3.0.X is best on murderable enemies, but if you're in anything past T5, you're not facing many bosses of that type. Some more levels and talents balance this out later, but if you're comfortable with swords and want to fit in another finisher into your rotation then stay combat, the dps of both is fairly close considering the relative ease of content now. Of course weapons/gear are always a factor too, >cough< spreadsheet >cough<.
Regarding combat cycles, assuming 5/51/5, I see everyone talking about 5s/5r/5e (dropping to maybe 4e depending on gear), but wouldn't it be better to do 5s/5r/5r? After the first 5r build back up to 5 combo points, pool a little energy, and by that time rupture is expiring and you out up a fresh one instead of using evis. You save 10 energy for the rupture vs the evis, making it easier to maintain the 5/5/5 rotation, and gain dps.
If you've gotten great procs and are nearing full energy before the rupture falls off just ss again? Sure you burn a combo point, but you maintain your cycle and have a better damage to energy ratio.
If you can squeeze two non-overlapping ruptures in, this will certainly be better; however, I suspect it general one will find it hard to do so. A rupture lasts 16 seconds, during which time you will, on average, regenerate ~250 energy; Since on average 160 or so will be needed to get the 5 CP for the Rupture, you'd have to be able to queue 90 energy to do this even in the average case, which just isn't feasible. Sometimes you'd need to queue even more than that.
So, in short: if your regen works out such that you can rupture twice without them overlapping, go for it. Just don't expect it to happen every time, because it won't.
This is hideous, and probably cannot hold up to an "intended" build like 51/15/5 or 15/51/5. But if you were in a stacked crit rate dual wield group, and could potentially expect 4cp/s from HAT, you could keep up SnD, rupture, and envenom if 5DP stack, evisc if not, every global. Backstab is your CP gen when you need that 5th CP, but honestly once a fight starts, between ruthlessness and HAT you would rarely even need to use BS. I don't think anything models a almost pure finisher rotation like this, and HAT will probably get nerfed, but yes, I am curious as well. I believe backstab is still more DPE than Hemo, but wasn't sure about imp evisc vs lethality, it would depend on your hit rate and how fast you could stack DP between globals. The faster your DP stack goes up, the less evisc's you would be using, and the lower the value of those talent points falls.
I don't have any good daggers to swap to a BS based build, and having Vanirs makes it likely I won't find any. Lolstep might not seem like a dps talent, but when you can lolstep a finisher for 20% increased dmg, it can be relatively powerful.
I originally had improved evisc, but I found I can get 2 eviscs in instead of 1 in the time that the SnD talent adds to my SnD, so it was more dps to skip it.
My cycle was working something along the lines of 5s/5r then either 5n if I had DP or 5e if I didn't. Often getting 2 of either in before refreshing SnD. At some points I was getting 3evisc or envenom in before SnD ran out thanks to the Glyph+talent.
I really hope that this is intended behaviour since I really enjoy the subt playstyle.
10/20/08, 7:49 AM
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