I'm almost certain that Honor Among Thieves is not intended to proc insanely as it currently does. Once per every 1-2 seconds will still be pretty fast CP generation however, but not fast enough to by itself catapult Subtlety to raid viability.

at the moment HaT makes Sub raid viable. you create more dps through your finisher. you actually have time to set a lot of 5cp snd/5r + 5 envenom + 5 evis combos. the only problem is you have to be fast so you do use all cps.

I don't think that's actually advisable, based on Pewsey's post a couple of pages ago, which said losing those points in RS makes cycles much more difficult to maintain. Vulajin's spreadsheet also shows you lose some SnD uptime. Remember that this is in the best case situation where you just stand and dps.

It seems like you stand to lose a lot more dps than you gain in the perfect case (less than 1/10 of a percent on my sheet) due to the potential dps lost by putting SnD back up if you let it drop.

It seems to me a case of whether you want to go for spreadsheet calculated best dps or best overall gain, similar to socketing pure hit vs. socketing hit/agi gems pre 3.0. Hit/agi didn't give the best dps as calculated by the spreadsheet but it gave a very close number and a small uncalculable advantage in certain situations (dodge), such that the potential advantage weighed out the dps decrease (for me at least). Also, I'd rather choose a build which keeps SnD up than one which drops it but gives a dps increase which is beyond the reasonable accuracy of the sheet, especially in a CttC cycle.

It's definitely not intended, as it seems to disregard the supposed internal cooldown of 1 second, though I don't see that as a big problem either: if 3 people in the group have a critting ability all at the same time, then you can be pretty certain that non of them will have a critting ability within the next 2-3 seconds. Spamming a crittable ability every second is pretty uncommon, once every 3 seconds on avarage can be considered more common, though it still requires a very high crit rate. Internal cooldowns and cast times make sure of that.

So sub-rogues can only hope that Blizz ignores the HaT bugs for now, untill they've found another way to improve raid viability without boosting PvP viability over the top.

Anyway, I've been toying with a sub build as well (6/5/50) and while it works, I find it unreliable, even when partied/raiding.
I've tried to put rotations into a spreadsheet, assuming 1 HaT proc every ~1.25 seconds, for specs with and without rupture/SnD glyphs and with and without Imp SnD.
Sometimes I found myself close or even tighter than that, other times it was miles off and just a slightly easier rotation than old tri-spec, but then mainly due to Hemo being 14% cheaper than before.

And for those wondering: such a spec, if only it worked, uses one combobuilder (hemo) every 5 seconds, while also executing 1 5pt finisher. This is very managable energywise, even with your energy regen being as bad as it is for deep-sub. Based on the energy alone, it could even be condensed to 4 seconds per finisher, but a sustained HaT proc every second would be even more unbelievable than this. At times I've pulled off the ~1.25 seconds/ proc for 10-20 seconds, at other times I was nowhere near.

Assuming this 1.25 second per HaT proc, having both Rupture and SnD glyphs and Imp SnD, you'd avarage on 4.3 Envenoms/Eviscerates per SnD cycle and 1.7 Ruptures per SnD cycle.

Now the question is: what to do with the third major glyph at lvl 80. Get the Glyph of Hemorrhage or the Glyph of Eviscerate.
The Hemorrhage glyph increases a non-scaling damage modifier, for an attack used only about once every 5 seconds, while the Eviscerate glyph would increase the crit chance on your 4th finisher, which is used about 2 times if you optimize an Envenom/Eviscerate mixture per SnD cycle (but 4.3 times if you just forget about Envenom altogether), increasing both your DPS and CP generation at the same time. My money would be on the Eviscerate glyph for this one, but I don't think it'll be that big a margin.

So, I've been playing around on the dummies with combat swords, and here is what I've found.

1. 5 points in Relentless Strikes in completely useless. I can keep up a 5/5/5 cycle without it.
2. Sinister Strike and Shiv both do comparable damage for the moment, but SS will probably be more viable in a raid because I won't have to worry about poison being resisted.
3. Killing Spree seems as useless as the posts before me have stated. On Sunwell fights, the disorientation of my character due to the skills inherent teleportation doesn't help at all, especially given that it puts me at minimum melee range instead of maximum.
4. 20/41/0 With 3 points in Vile Poisons and and 2 Points in Improved Poisons is doing more damage than 11/50/0 (just like the old combat spec without Relentless Strikes).
5. With this spec, Adrenaline Rush is once again viable as a DPS boost, and not just a wasted talent.
6. AToL is excellent! I can let my energy bars fill up easily before I use my finishers, giving me 3 Sinister Strikes, if not 5, before I finish again.

This is what I have observed, regardless of the spreadsheet, just doing my own testing with meters. I would appreciate some feedback!

No matter what cycle you're able to sustain without it, Relentless Strikes is useful because it gives additional energy, and energy is damage. Unlike Imp SnD and such abilities where the only benefit of the talent is an improved cycle, a rogue with Relentless Strikes does demonstrably more than one without, even running the exact same cycle.

Hey im swords and was wondering which of these is better.

A: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

B: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

I'd like to address something I've been hearing a lot recently. Many people have been saying that AR is a "wasted" talent point.

Now I'd like to point out that the only possible case where AR would be giving 0 DPS (and thus would be wasted) would be in a situation where you always have enough energy such that you can never use all of it (and this is not just the average case, but worst case as well). As long as you are capable of using all of your energy at some point or another, AR is increasing your DPS.

But that's not the scenario we're in. We *can* use all of our energy as Combat, and thus (unless you're stupid in managing your energy while AR is up), you're not actually wasting any of the energy you gain.

This means that AR gives the exact same amount of damage that it gave before the patch: X Sinister Strikes and 1 Eviscerate. You're still gaining the exact same amount of energy as before, and none of it is being wasted -- it's all being converted into added damage.

Neither quite my choice, but the 2nd one.

Funny you should mention using killing spree on flying targets. I used KS on Felmyst tonight, waiting until we got the 5 second warning on her flying. It would pick me up as she took off, giving me a few more seconds dps than I'd have gotten otherwise.

That makes a lot of sense, I wonder then why I'm doing more damage on dummy without it.

EDIT: Aldriana, could it possibly be, that instead of a damage dealing attack that adds a combo point, ie. SS, isn't dealing enough damage with the energy to make up for the passive skills that I would get otherwise?

Therefore, wouldn't it STILL be preferable, instead of energy, to have the passive skills?

I've tried it over and over, again and again, 6/50/5 VS. 11/50/0 or 20/41/0, and the 2nd two come out consistently on top.

no wonder why you are falling behind. did you spend points on slaughter from the shadows? with sub daggers you will have a lot of problems with the current patch because you don' t have the talent points to gain all talents you need for a dagger build. regards to sub hemo with HaT you gain a lot of advantages

I use a 0/10/51 shs hemo spec since patch release and i am more than surprised. If you don' t believe that, here is our log from our last illidan and archimone kill:

Illidan: Wow Web Stats
Archimonde: Wow Web Stats

edit: please don' t be irritated by the spec that is shown on the report. specc on these fights were 0/10/51 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

To be fair, I'm 100% PvP specced, so I'm missing quite a few vital talents. The Hyjal was just a pug, so I wasn't particularly interested in respeccing or using consumables for it. Additionally, I was wearing ~320 hit rating worth of gear; which one might argue was overkill for the role. I'm sure someone who specced and geared suitably for the role would push more competitive numbers; but nothing to the standard of Combat or Mutilate.

For the sake of comparison, I'll try to convince the guild to drag me along to Brutallus/Gorefiend this week and try out a variety of specs. I wouldn't disqualify ShS Daggers entirely; with my suboptimal setup I'm capable of hovering around 1800. (Inflated numbers due to the 25k+ burst of Shadow Dance may or may not skew these results!)

You've really got me thinking now. I'm curious to experiment with a few specs and review the results. I'm tempted to re-gem all of my gear for Agility rather than Hit gems. Hmmmmmm...

In my research in game, ranging from bosses in Black Temple, to HH, to the training dumby, I have actually gotten more damage when not fitting HFB into my mutilate rotation.

The main reason for this seems to be energy management and/or always being low on energy when it comes time to get in the Envenom to keep SnD active.

I use a 5e/4r rotation and am setup as 51/3/7.

Is anyone else experiencing energy issues and hense dps loss when using HFB in your typical Mutilate spec (I would think this would apply to 51/5/5 even more).

The roguecraft spreadsheet does not seem to depict this loss in dps and unless I am calculating something wrong I'm not sure if it is properly calculating the use of energy in upkeep of HFB during your rotation.

None whatsoever.
Even unbuffed (1.9dp/1.5ip, 2024ap, 34%crit 211hit and 28haste) on the dummies I'm having no problem maintaining a 4+r/4+env cycle whilst keeping up HfB every 27 or so seconds specd 51/5/5.
I honestly can't think of anything better to do with that 30 energy every other cycle seeing as how im generating just enough CPs as I need.

Are you using the SnD glyph?
I've also found it possible to maintain the cycle even w/o the glyph, dodges permitting, and its always a bit too close for comfort.


edlt: And buffed, in a raid setting, I'm no where near energy starved. With proper energy pooling before an envenom, and a lucky relentless strikes proc, im able to instantly muti and rupture with only my GCD in between.

If you are losing DPS from using HfB, you are quite simply doing something wrong. Either you need the glyph, something is weird about your spec, or you aren't correctly performing the cycle.

We were taking down Kil'Jaeden yesterday and contrary to most posters here I had serious problems keeping up 5s/5r/5e, sometimes I'd barely make it to a new 4cp SnD after the Eviscerate, I'm 6/51/5 and using SS + SnD glyph.

To be honest your dps on those fights are not quite impressive despite your gear. From my experience, even with HAT, subtlety spec is still quite inferior to combat. I was able to dish out 2.3 k on Naj'entus (no spines), 2.2 k on Mother (with 1 teleport). My gear was Infamy MH, Season 2 offhand, no T6 set bonus.

I'm having the same problem. I can easily pull off 2S/5R, but 5s/5r/53 is a problem. Rupture ain't clipping for me anyway with the 2s/5r rotation, so it ain't a problem really.

I am quite confused about something, using the spreadsheet with my current gear and spec i should be pulling around 1900 DPS on a static boss in raids (PS: armory gear not updated).

Thing is, did a MH run last night, and never managed to pull anything above ~1200.
Im not a retard by any means, though before this i only played combat specced (on an UD rogue), but im suspecting it has at least smth to do with my cycle rotation.


This is the spec im currently using.
Not using Murder at the moment since i mostly will do MH/BT pugs up to when WotLK will start shipping.

Anyway, at the moment i usually try to do a 1-3 CP SnD (due to crits i might get more than one point), 1 CP Eviscerate, then 5 CP Rupture, and so on, though i mostly end up using some Envenom as well, losing HfB and having to put it up al over again.
Thing is this Muti spec is way different than what it used to be when playing Combat, so im still trying to get the hang of it.

This is largely going to be gear/buff dependent at 70 I'd suspect. If you have quite a bit of haste, hit, and a lot of buffs, you'll have more Combat Potency procs and thus be able to more consistently maintain this.

Wow. Your cycle is seriously messed up, I don't even know where to start. First of all, you never have to hit SnD after the very first one. The entire point of the Mutilate spec is to use Envenom to refresh your SnD. Why else did you spend 5 points in Cut to the Chase?

Next, you should never use Eviscerate. Envenom is always > Eviscerate.

And how in the world are you doing "1 CP" finishers with Mutilate? Mutilate on a non-crit gives you 2 CPs. There's no way you can have a 1 CP finisher unless you are just immediately doing a finisher after a Ruthlessness proc. You do realize how horribly inefficient a use of your energy a 1 CP finisher is right?

Again we return to the Mutilate priorities (which have now been stated multiple times over the past few pages):
1. Don't ever EVER let HfB or SnD (refreshed via 4+ CP Envenom, NEVER Eviscerate) drop.
2. Maximize your Rupture uptime (prefer 4+ CP Ruptures).
3. Do as many 4 or more CP Envenoms as possible provided it's not at the expense of rule #1 or #2.

That's how you should be playing it.

Thanks alot for the tips mate, so then, the first SnD, do i do a 5 CP SnD?
What i meant to say, about the 1 CP thing, was that on a boss i usually started with Garrote, then 1 CP SnD, and then refresh it with 2-3 CP's from the Mutilate, though i was aware that probably this isn't the best thing to do.
So basically, i understand that on a boss fight, it should go along like this:
Garrote -> Mutilate up to 5CP -> SnD -> 4 CP Rupture -> 4 CP Envenom and so on? (while keeping up HfB ofc).