PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 148

xvvx01 · 10/21/08, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by turbare

Thanks alot for the tips mate, so then, the first SnD, do i do a 5 CP SnD?
What i meant to say, about the 1 CP thing, was that on a boss i usually started with Garrote, then 1 CP SnD, and then refresh it with 2-3 CP's from the Mutilate, though i was aware that probably this isn't the best thing to do.
So basically, i understand that on a boss fight, it should go along like this:
Garrote -> Mutilate up to 5CP -> SnD -> 4 CP Rupture -> 4 CP Envenom and so on? (while keeping up HfB ofc).

Envenom/Eviscerate will refresh your SnD up to it's highest duration regardless of how many combo points you spend on them. So you want to get an SnD up as soon as possible, get 4+ CPs, hit your envenom button, get 4+ CPs, check your timers and see if you have enough time to throw in a rupture (early on in the cycle you probably do).

You just have to keep an eye on your timers and prioritize according to the rules Chalon laid out.

Edit: I recommend just perusing through the thread, this topic has been covered enough that it shouldn't have to be discussed every 3-4 pages.

turbare · 10/21/08, 7:25 AM

I am aware of the fact that they refresh SnD to the full duration regardless of how many CP i use.
By the way, you know of any addons that could display a timer or something regarding the duration of SnD (or HfB for that matter)?
It get's awfully crowded in the buff bar in a raiding environment.

Ikilu · 10/21/08, 7:26 AM

If there is a poison already up on the boss when you get to him, perhaps from a hunter, you can open with Mutilate. Usually there seems to be a poison up rather quick on every boss fight for me, since my guild runs with 3-4 hunters, so I Mutilate to open and if I crit I throw up a SnD, if not I mutilate again and then throw up a SnD. I can't think of any reason why Garrote would be a better way to open.

Originally Posted by turbare

I am aware of the fact that they refresh SnD to the full duration regardless of how many CP i use.
By the way, you know of any addons that could display a timer or something regarding the duration of SnD (or HfB for that matter)?
It get's awfully crowded in the buff bar in a raiding environment.

Need to Know or Slice Commander. Both can be found on Curse.

xvvx01 · 10/21/08, 7:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ikilu

If there is a poison already up on the boss when you get to him, perhaps from a hunter, you can open with Mutilate. Usually there seems to be a poison up rather quick on every boss fight for me, since my guild runs with 3-4 hunters, so I Mutilate to open and if I crit I throw up a SnD, if not I mutilate again and then throw up a SnD. I can't think of any reason why Garrote would be a better way to open.

If you open with mutilate, you'll have 2CPs. a 2CP SnD is more than enough time to get 4CPs and Envenom, thus refreshing your SnD and giving you the Envenom buff. You shouldn't have to worry if it crits or not to throw SnD up, put it up and get into your cycle as fast as possible.

◊ chalon · 10/21/08, 7:52 AM

This is how I always start fights:

1. Tank says "okay I'm going"
2. I hit HfB, Tricks of the Trade, and stealth
3. If I'm going to have to move a non-trivial amount in stealth, and I don't need sprint for the fight, I'll just pop it.
4. As soon as the boss is pulled, I strike with Mutilate x2, or as soon after the boss is pulled that is feasible. Doesn't matter whether or not the tank has even taken a swing yet, cause you're sending all your threat straight to the tank anyways.
5. Hit SnD
6. When I get 4+ CPs, Rupture
7. At this point depending on various factors (such as how long the pull actually takes to happen), I may or may not need to refresh HfB. If so I do it here.
8. Build 4+ CPs and Envenom.
9. At this point I'm in my full cycle and just follow the cycle rules as laid out. (FWIW, I also now throw in using the Vanish/Overkill trick for whatever slight DPS increase I can eke out--however I usually save that for Heroism time.)

Now, it's true that Garrote on pull is likely better DPE than a Mutilate if there are no poisons up. But it's certainly not better CP/Energy. And I think the value of getting a Rupture up faster is > whatever DPE increase that Garrote would give you.

Maybe this method of starting is really unoptimal but I seem to be getting good results in Naxx 25 on Beta. My current record is 5335 DPS on Patchwerk.

drumbum · 10/21/08, 8:57 AM

Has anyone verified yet whether Master Poisoner's 3% crit chance debuff applies to spells or not? I believe the question has been raised earlier but I couldn't find a definitive answer one way or the other.

turbare · 10/21/08, 9:07 AM

Well, you shouldn't actually need to spec that one in a raiding environment, chances are you'll have a pally or shaman who'll buff that instead of you.

Thanks for all the people who replied to my questions, highly appreciate it, will give it a go when i have the chance and report in.

evl · 10/21/08, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by chalon

This is largely going to be gear/buff dependent at 70 I'd suspect. If you have quite a bit of haste, hit, and a lot of buffs, you'll have more Combat Potency procs and thus be able to more consistently maintain this.

I'm in almost full Sunwell gear so I don't see how a trinket, new pants and Muramasa will do that much of a difference?

Imiut · 10/21/08, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by drumbum

Has anyone verified yet whether Master Poisoner's 3% crit chance debuff applies to spells or not? I believe the question has been raised earlier but I couldn't find a definitive answer one way or the other.

You would think the "all attacks" bit from the tooltip would give you a clue.

Is it me or is this thread been degrading into a cesspool of stupid questions the past two weeks? Is it so hard to read a few pages before hitting 'submit reply'?

drumbum · 10/21/08, 9:22 AM

Originally Posted by Imiut

You would think the "all attacks" bit from the tooltip would give you a clue.

Is it me or is this thread been degrading into a cesspool of stupid questions the past two weeks? Is it so hard to read a few pages before hitting 'submit reply'?

Just because the tooltip reads one way doesn't mean it actually behaves that way. As an example, Malice says it "increases critical strike chance" but it does not affect spell crit chance according to the character sheet. My question is legitimate, and there's no reason to become hostile.

pdpi · 10/21/08, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by turbare

Well, you shouldn't actually need to spec that one in a raiding environment, chances are you'll have a pally or shaman who'll buff that instead of you.

That's a silly thing to state so boldly. I mean, if you're an elemental shaman, there's no need to spec for totem of wrath, a paladin or a rogue can easily provide the crit bonus. (If you're retri, it truly is hard to spec for PvE without heart of the crusader, and still justifying all talents spent as being dps boosts, but the general point still stands).

True, there are less expensive ways to get that buff, and it may be optimal to have somebody else take it. But "chances are somebody else will take it" is just the wrong attitude.

EDIT: While the last statement still stands, as a general criticism of the attitude, I forgot that totem of wrath actually provides better spellpower than improved flametongue. My bad.

Tinwhisker · 10/21/08, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by evl

I'm in almost full Sunwell gear so I don't see how a trinket, new pants and Muramasa will do that much of a difference?

Remember that the 5s/5r/Xe rotation is very finicky towards time away from the target. If you're porting, chasing M'uru, running back to a dragon bubble or spending any time at all off target you're not going to be able to do it; there's just no way. I'm lucky in that I'm the mark for collapsing when we fight K'J; I never take my blades out of range.

I initially tried things out in my pre-3.0 gear which was very hit heavy and was having problems. Raid buffs were pushing my crit rate much higher than in pre-3.0 (this is mostly due to the new raid buff system I think).

Based on what Vulajin's sheet said I pulled my more crit/agi heavy gear from the bank and regem'd. The gear I wear for 5/51/5 combat is very near what I would wear as my first pass at Mutilate. I've dropped a lot of hit for agi (crit), relying on the Sinister Strike glyph to build my CPs like Seal Fate in a Mutilate build. I like to think of it as shifting energy spent on CP generation towards finishers.

With the buff that the SS glyph is getting soon (40% -> 50%) this can only get better for me.

As always, check the sheets and do what works for you though.

Wodahs · 10/21/08, 10:39 AM

Forgive me if Im missing the obvious, but in a bg, running 5/51/5 I hit a 5 point deadly throw on a mage who blinked away, and had a combo point left to deadly him again 2 seconds later, as I was running at him. Where did that combo point come from? Aside from ruthlessness not awarding a combo point on deadly throw, I dont even have ruthlessness. It was a crit DT however, is it possible the SS glyph added the combo point?

Cibeles · 10/21/08, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Wodahs

Forgive me if Im missing the obvious, but in a bg, running 5/51/5 I hit a 5 point deadly throw on a mage who blinked away, and had a combo point left to deadly him again 2 seconds later, as I was running at him. Where did that combo point come from? Aside from ruthlessness not awarding a combo point on deadly throw, I dont even have ruthlessness. It was a crit DT however, is it possible the SS glyph added the combo point?

I think the only way to do it is having the points en ruthlessness and since you weren't using SS that seems rather impossible.

Pyriana · 10/21/08, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Wodahs

Forgive me if Im missing the obvious, but in a bg, running 5/51/5 I hit a 5 point deadly throw on a mage who blinked away, and had a combo point left to deadly him again 2 seconds later, as I was running at him. Where did that combo point come from? Aside from ruthlessness not awarding a combo point on deadly throw, I dont even have ruthlessness. It was a crit DT however, is it possible the SS glyph added the combo point?

I had a similar experience once except I was using shiv (on najentus while he was bubbled) and it confused me for a second but my initial thought was the Sinister Strike glyph isn't exactly a sinister strike glyph, but more like a combo point glyph, has anyone tested it with mutilate?

Killashandra · 10/21/08, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Pyriana

I had a similar experience once except I was using shiv (on najentus while he was bubbled) and it confused me for a second but my initial thought was the Sinister Strike glyph isn't exactly a sinister strike glyph, but more like a combo point glyph, has anyone tested it with mutilate?

Well, the tooltip does specifically say "your sinister strike critical hits" I'd suggest that if it's granting combo points on other attacks that it's a bug (which isn't outside the realm of probability since it's a new glyph).

Kitherdra · 10/21/08, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by chalon

Next, you should never use Eviscerate. Envenom is always > Eviscerate.

Not calling you out Chalon or trying to argue but just clear things up..

Envenom>evis toe to toe but if you're in dire need of refreshing SnD through CttC and have say, 5cps but only 2-3DPs on the boss, would it not be best to evis seeing as how a 5pt envenom w/ 3DPs would be essentially wasting 2CPs, or would the few seconds of increased poison application from envenom negate this?
I know, more often than not, there is time to stack more DP while pooling before your envenom, I'm speaking about those once every few cycle moments(unlucky finisher dodges, etc) that puts you in the position to pop that 4+ envenom/evis as soon as you've got the energy or face losing your SnD.

(Also, if this has been covered, my bad, I don't have time to read as much EJ forumstuffs as I once did)

Ariel · 10/21/08, 11:45 AM

I'm running 5/51/5 sword spec right now, and I find that with the SS glyph I sometimes have time for a longer cycle -- say 5s/5r/5e/5r if I get lucky enough on procs. I haven't done the math, so I'm just assuming it makes sense to do so, due to higher rupture uptime. However, I'm trying to figure out how much SS time I should have left before it makes sense to add the rupture, rather than refresh SnD early.

To be sure that you don't disrupt the cycle at all, you'd want to make sure you have enough energy regen time to do 5 SS and pool energy back to 60 before the SnD. That would be 200 energy, and so you'd need 16 seconds (12.5 eps w/ Vitality).

Alternatively, you can risk depleting the energy pool -- that's what it's for, after all -- and rupture with a minimum of 140 energy available -- so 11.2 seconds of SnD remaining. However, if you get no procs from SS and less than 2 procs from CP, you could be stuck waiting for energy to refresh SnD when it expires. Its a calculated risk, but the cost of SnD downtime is pretty high.

Instead, you could risk only 35 energy from the pool so that you will definitely have the energy for SnD when you need it -- that means rupture with 13.2 seconds of SnD remaining.

I'm assuming the last option the best choice simply because I imagine the DPS gain from a 4th finisher to be fairly small, and the dps loss for SnD downtime to be relatively high, but that its reasonably safe to take a loan from the energy pool to pay for it.

With all that said, now for the question: Am I correct in my assumptions? That is, a) that its useful to add a 4th finisher to the cycle when its possible to do so, and b) that the last option (>13.2 seconds) is the best breakpoint for attempting a 4th finisher?

As a final note, I'll just add that I'm also unimpressed by Killing Spree. Not only is it unexpectedly bad with multiple targets or on fights where its a problem to be closer than max hitbox range, but its also bad on mobs that frequently turn to cast randomly targetted spells. Doubly so if they have a cleave or another reason it would be really bad to be standing near the tank (Drain Soul, Airburst, etc). I got to be a Saber Lash tank when I used it on Mother -- my mitigation wasn't sufficient. The list of bosses where its risky seems very long for a 51-point talent.

Konorel · 10/21/08, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Kitherdra

Envenom>evis toe to toe but if you're in dire need of refreshing SnD through CttC and have say, 5cps but only 2-3DPs on the boss, would it not be best to evis seeing as how a 5pt envenom w/ 3DPs would be essentially wasting 2CPs, or would the few seconds of increased poison application from envenom negate this?

The Envenom buff will help cover the difference in this situation. You really shouldn't run into this problem but once in a blue moon.

For Mutilate, in a raid situation, there should never be a time when you are using Eviscerate over Envenom.

• Vulajin · 10/21/08, 12:01 PM

Envenom's damage comes from two sources. The first source is a fixed amount of damage per poison dose consumed, which is 148 for rank 2 or 216 for rank 4. The second source is an AP-based amount per combo point spent, which is 7% for all ranks. As long as there is at least one dose of Deadly Poison on the target, you will get the full AP bonus for the number of CP you spent. However, you will only get the poison bonus for the number of doses of Deadly Poison you consume. Thus, an Envenom at 5 CP with only 2-3 Deadly Poison doses is still quite strong compared to an Envenom at 5 CP with 5 doses.

Kryptyx · 10/21/08, 12:53 PM

ETA on Shadow Dance fix
I think I said before that changing the bar won't happen soon. It will be after Nov 13 and Lich King ships. The change to the cooldown on the openers should be in now on beta and very soon on live. (Source)

Fan of Knives and single-target DPS
We'd love to get rogue AE higher if we can do it where Fan is only used for AE and not as a general part of the single-target rotation. Also note that comparing anyone to a Ret paladin recently, and especially at 70, isn't going to be a great comparison. Elemental isn't designed to have an advantage over mage single-target dps, but rogues should have an advantage over warrior single-target dps. (Source)

Combat Potency changes and Fan of Knives
So it turns out the Combat Potency change to nerf Shiv also keeps Fan of Knives from generating Energy. Making the cooldown zero might do weird things to PvP when a rogue stands there and throws out knives to attempt break stealth. But we can probably lower it to 10 sec or so. That's Thunderclap / Whirlwind range. (Source)

Hemorrhage
But the charges are the entire point. Hemo is supposed to be a debuff, not an alternative to Sinister Strike. It in fact yields better damage per energy than Sinister Strike untalented and it's only the talents that prop up the latter ability. Adding more Hemo talents just gives you another high dps, spammable attack.

It is true that the rogue personally may not benefit a lot from Hemo when the charges get used up correctly. I think the attitude that that is "bad" just stems from the "winning the damage meters" mentality, not whether the ability helps you beat the boss. I'm not saying that looking at damage meters makes you shallow. I understand a nearsighted raid leader may not take you if your personal dps is low, but we're also not sure what to do about that until we can come up with some kind of "raid contribution" measurement that includes your buffs and debuffs. (Source)

Developers Q&A (Source)
Like what you plan to do with sub?
We recently made some changes to boost it, such as moving Dual-Wield Spec to tier 1 combat.

Why is hemo so bad?
It has a great debuff that boosts raid damage. It’s not intended to be Sinister Strike.

Why is Shadow Dance dagger only?
We agree with the above comment that it can do a lot of different things. You may just be focusing too much on it as a +dps cooldown.

Whether you feel rogue mobility is fine?
Rogues have a lot going for them in the way of stuns, damage avoidance and “get out of jail” cards. When you get up on other classes, they do have a tendency to die. We’re not sure we want rogues to also be zipping around the battlefield like warriors.

What is happening with Lightning Reflexes?
We mentioned this as a possible change (or perhaps we even promised it -- I don't recall) but it didn't materialize because we found other knobs to turn in combat that felt better during playtesting. Because LR is a passive talent, the side benefits would also end up being passive.

What is the deal with the Glyph of Sprint?
If I understand the qustion, I think it's just a tooltip bug. The glyph was made before the base cooldown of Sprint was lowered from 5 minutes to 3 minutes (2 min talented). If that's not the issue, can you elaborate a little more?

Why is there a major glyph of feint?
Basically, rogues have relatively few abilities, and we were desperate for something that wouldn’t have serious PvP balance ramifications. I agree this might be a good candidate for a minor glyph. Remember that we are going to be adding a lot more glyphs over time. You shouldn't view this as one of your very few useful glyphs is less useful, because you'll eventually have a lot of choices.

Why is Fan of Knives so weak with daggers, and even weak with swords?
It's designed to give you a button to hit when you want to AE. It's not supposed to turn you into an AE class, if that makes sense.

Are you happy with Hunger For Blood being horrible for PvP, and like the old Rampage for PvE?
No, not completely. We understand that CC + a short duration limit how often you can benefit from it. Obviously, we think removing MS and Hamstring was a little too good, just because those are generally hard debuffs to get out of.

How exactly are expose, mind numbing and wound major raid utility, when they so obviously are not?
Couple of things here, and forgive me for being a little brief.

First, I am reading between the lines a little here that it would be really nice to have a unique buff or debuff. Everyone asks for that, but it defeats the whole point.

Second, Expose is one of the strongest debuffs in the game. The dps increase can be 30% or more. So I suspect what you're really getting at is that "we'll always have a warrior with us doing that debuff." The whole point of the revamp is we can’t assume you have anyone but we still want you to be able to get the buff. Mind Numbing is a cast speed debuff that is only offered by one other class (that doesn’t even exist in the game at the moment). Granted, it doesn't offer the benefit of Expose. Wounding Poison offers the strongest debuff in the game for PvP, and also offers some dps to not over-penalize rogues who are balanced around poison damage.

Third, ultimately we still want raids to want rogues because they bring good dps. We just don't want it to feel that only the rogues (hunters, mages and locks) are doing the group's dps.

Will there be a mutilate/HFB/cold blood/Assassination oriented glyph made before release?
Probably. We do want to add more glyphs over time, just like new gems started to show up in BC.

Overkill - why is it the pre-req to mutilate?
It's always a hard call to decide what prereqs to what. We do like talent prereqs, and it seems like a good talent regardless. Are you wanting to skip it?

2. It has been stated that there is a plan to still have some poison immune mob/bosses in WotLK, what can a mutilate rogue do during these situations. Mages were helped with frostfire to combat the fire immune/frost immune mobs, but the poison requirement on mutilate still exist and when dealing with poison immune mobs, we're(for the lack of a better term) seriously screwed in our dps. I still don't understand why our signature move(for assassination) still has this requirement when it still cost 60 energy.
Poisons are what the rogues are balanced around, so we need to be pretty careful about that now. I can't promise there won't be any poison immune bosses -- resistance and immunity are things we can change on a boss to make the fight play out pretty differently from the previous boss. But there won't be a lot of them.

The latest from MMO Champion... I think it will be interesting to see what Glyphs they push pre-WoTLK for the Mutilate build.

Also has anyone tested DPS increase with Exposed? Since they seem to believe its such a "large" increase...

◊ chalon · 10/21/08, 1:10 PM

I think we're all capable of reading MMO champ

. Was it necessary to copy/paste that whole entire segment?

Anyways, to answer your specific question, if the choices are:
1. No major armor debuff and run Rupture
2. Expose Armor instead

#2 is always better. The problem is that option #3, namely get any type of Warrior to run Sunder, is substantially Superior because if they're tanking there is NO DPS loss, and if they aren't tanking, the DPS loss for a Fury or Arms Warrior running Sunder is far less than the DPS loss for a Rogue running EA.

EDIT: I will say one thing though, in scenarios where I've had to run EA as Mutilate, I've actually been able to run EA/Rupture/Envenom cycles, so in that case the loss is an additional Evenom replaced by your EA.

Zaniel · 10/21/08, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kryptyx

...Mind Numbing is a cast speed debuff that is only offered by one other class (that doesn’t even exist in the game at the moment)...

I suppose they forgot about the easier-to-apply-and-maintain Curse of Tongues, unless I missed the memo where that was removed from the game? It's the same argument as with Expose -- another class provides the debuff at a much smaller opportunity (and DPS) cost. So much so that the rogue pretty much never wants to even consider Mind Numbing... And with DKs bringing another source of this debuff (if I'm interpreting the quote correctly), I don't know what Blizzard is trying to do here.

About Overkill, I know many people dislike this ability, especially that it's a prerequisite for Mutilate, but having played around on the Beta for quite a while with HfB, Tricks, and Fan of Knives, I've found that it is very helpful, especially on trash pulls. It makes it viable to keep HfB up at VERY minimal costs. You can also pop a Trick on your tank and immediately FoK an AoE pull onto him at a minimized cost (Tricks doesn't break stealth), so you can then continue on with an easy cycle. In the end, I believe Overkill is underrated, even if its DPS contribution in the perfect boss fight situation is minimal.

Maurice2u · 10/21/08, 2:14 PM

I will say that Hemo comment is quite perplexing.

GC implies that Hemo is not meant to be a spammed attack, but an occasionally used debuff. Now of course, anyone who has Hemo uses it as a primary attack, so the concept he presented there is dubious in and of itself. It also makes one wonder why in the world Hemo was added to Surprise Attacks if it was not meant to be a spammed attack. And of course, even as a debuff, it has to be spammed since it is limited by charges that are used up in well under 2 seconds in any group.

Yet, GC then presents a totally incompatible notion that using Hemo adds more raid damage and that it is simply the lower personal DPS that causes rogues to not like current Hemo. Essentially GC is stating that Hemo, at a minimum, adds back the personal DPS loss by way of raid DPS, and potentially ends up with a total raid DPS contribution that is higher than a standard PvE spec. Now we've calculated that up, down, six ways from Sunday and know that is absolutely not true in anyway shape or form. No spec w/ Hemo ends up with more total raid contributed DPS.

If someone could please articulate that well on the Beta boards it would be much obliged. Obviously there are some fundamental misconceptions being tossed around, and it is disheartening. I know Blizz has calculators, spreadsheets, and simulators far more advanced than what the community has the time or resources to develop, so either the numbers we've been crunching are wrong, and we need Blizz's help to see what we're are missing, or GC doesn't have a good grasp of what he's talking about on this particular issue.

◊ chalon · 10/21/08, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Zaniel

I suppose they forgot about the easier-to-apply-and-maintain Curse of Tongues, unless I missed the memo where that was removed from the game? It's the same argument as with Expose -- another class provides the debuff at a much smaller opportunity (and DPS) cost. So much so that the rogue pretty much never wants to even consider Mind Numbing... And with DKs bringing another source of this debuff (if I'm interpreting the quote correctly), I don't know what Blizzard is trying to do here.

About Overkill, I know many people dislike this ability, especially that it's a prerequisite for Mutilate, but having played around on the Beta for quite a while with HfB, Tricks, and Fan of Knives, I've found that it is very helpful, especially on trash pulls. It makes it viable to keep HfB up at VERY minimal costs. You can also pop a Trick on your tank and immediately FoK an AoE pull onto him at a minimized cost (Tricks doesn't break stealth), so you can then continue on with an easy cycle. In the end, I believe Overkill is underrated, even if its DPS contribution in the perfect boss fight situation is minimal.

Well, I wouldnt' say CoT is necessarily a "small" opportunity cost. CoA would be a non-trivial amount of DPS gain over having to run CoT. However, the point does stand that generally speaking our utility does have a greater opportunity cost over other classes, and thus generally speaking you want whichever other class can provide it. A greater problem I'd see is that in general a cast speed debuff really isn't that useful given that nearly every raid boss is immune to this as otherwise it would be too overpowered.

Regarding the Overkill comment. Yeah, I do feel like all the hate is slightly misplaced. While yes it may be nice to have something else, I would argue it's at least more useful than Vigor. And I do think the Vanish/Overkill trick is a little bit fun to pull off mid fight.

Originally Posted by Maurice2u

Yet, GC then presents a totally incompatible notion that using Hemo adds more raid damage and that it is simply the lower personal DPS that causes rogues to not like current Hemo. Essentially GC is stating that Hemo, at a minimum, adds back the personal DPS loss by way of raid DPS, and potentially ends up with a total raid DPS contribution that is higher than a standard PvE spec. Now we've calculated that up, down, six ways from Sunday and know that is absolutely not true in anyway shape or form. No spec w/ Hemo ends up with more total raid contributed DPS.

If someone could please articulate that well on the Beta boards it would be much obliged. Obviously there are some fundamental misconceptions being tossed around, and it is disheartening. I know Blizz has calculators, spreadsheets, and simulators far more advanced than what the community has the time or resources to develop, so either the numbers we've been crunching are wrong, and we need Blizz's help to see what we're are missing, or GC doesn't have a good grasp of what he's talking about on this particular issue.

I've already articulated that particular point, in fact only a couple posts down from his reply:

Originally Posted by Chalon

The problem is that most modeling shows that the "raid DPS benefit" of Hemo really is not that significant at all. To the point that if you specced Combat instead, your personal DPS gain is greater than the raid DPS gain Hemo would give. Or in other terms:

Personal Hemo DPS + Raid Hemo DPS < Personal Combat DPS

So even regardless of the "my personal DPS is lower" argument, the overall raid benefit of you being Hemo vs. Combat is skewed towards Combat.