EA (talented) has always offered a bigger armor debuff than sunder, it's just rarely used since our upkeep of it was difficult, and the warrior relied heavily on sunder for TPS/RPS. While the blue post is factually true, it's only under certain conditions where a rogue has it talented, and a warrior is not using sunder or not tanking. Perhaps in Blizzards vision of 4 viable tanks in any given raid, a guild could ask one of the rogues to talent for EA if a warrior is not tanking.
Remember too regarding Evis/Enve that Envenom ignores armor since it's regarded a spell.
And finally, though this post may be guilty of it in it's own way, backseat moderation has been officially panned by senior members of the board. A Glass Joe rank (or any rank for that matter) calling out another on "stupid questions" is not tolerable in my eyes. The reasons for the new members and numerous questions is due in large part to the game fundamentally changing, and the status of this fine site as the "go-to" resource being known world-wide. I'm not ignoring the laziness of some to just think an excuse for not reading is enough to justify doing so, but attacking them for it only pollutes the forum more, as was stated earlier (perhaps you didn't read that yourself).
Forgive me for speaking out of turn, while I've only recently joined to post, I've followed and used EJ's advice for over a year.
Chalon ~ "I've already articulated that particular point, in fact only a couple posts down from his reply"
Thanks. In order to fix this 'debuff', I can only surmise that it either needs the charges removed, and be scaled strictly by time, or to make the talent add the debuff to other already spammed attacks, instead of being a separate attack of it's own. That way daggers get the benefit on backstab, fist/sword users on sinister strike, etc. There comes to mind some odd spec where that might cause concern, but for any spec that has the required 21 points to take Hemo, the DPS loss in just getting there would probably off-set any excessive gains.
Removing charges has the key benefit of making it more beneficial to a group, without buffing the rogue much individually. Capped by the group size (25) and time of the debuff (variable to Blizz's contentment, as always). The making it a purely debuff talent has the benefit of allowing all the full Subtlety rogues to stick with daggers, as most of the talents in the tree benefit Backstab/Ambush/etc far more than any mace/fist/sword abilities. It would certainly smooth out the talent point selection, sticking with dagger talents and a dagger benefiting Hemo all the way down the tree.
EDIT: Looks like people are hitting these two concepts on the Beta board now, or variants thereof. Now we'll just have to see if Blizz is paying attention and does something about it in the post-LK patch.
EA (talented) has always offered a bigger armor debuff than sunder, it's just rarely used since our upkeep of it was difficult, and the warrior relied heavily on sunder for TPS/RPS. While the blue post is factually true, it's only under certain conditions where a rogue has it talented, and a warrior is not using sunder or not tanking. Perhaps in Blizzards vision of 4 viable tanks in any given raid, a guild could ask one of the rogues to talent for EA if a warrior is not tanking.
This held true pre-patch 3.0.2, however Improved Expose Armor no longer increases the amount of armor reduced, instead it reduces the energy cost of EA by 5/10. This makes it even more desirable for having any warrior in the raid, regardless of spec, maintain Sunder over having a Rogue spec Imp EA.
EA (talented) has always offered a bigger armor debuff than sunder, it's just rarely used since our upkeep of it was difficult, and the warrior relied heavily on sunder for TPS/RPS. While the blue post is factually true, it's only under certain conditions where a rogue has it talented, and a warrior is not using sunder or not tanking. Perhaps in Blizzards vision of 4 viable tanks in any given raid, a guild could ask one of the rogues to talent for EA if a warrior is not tanking.
This was the case in the past. It's not the case in 3.0/WotLK. Imp. EA now reduces the energy cost of EA. It does not increase the armor reduction. 5x Sunder and Expose Armor now provide the same armor reduction - 3925 armor. So the advantage, while it used to be there, is no longer there. And again, regardless of whether or not a Warrior is tanking for you, in a 25 man raid there is an incredibly high chance that you will have one Warrior in the raid. Regardless of whether or not said Warrior tanking, it is better for overall raid DPS for them to run Sunder instead of you to run EA.
Thanks. In order to fix this 'debuff', I can only surmise that it either needs the charges removed, and be scaled strictly by time, or to make the talent add the debuff to other already spammed attacks, instead of being a separate attack of it's own. That way daggers get the benefit on backstab, fist/sword users on sinister strike, etc. There comes to mind some odd spec where that might cause concern, but for any spec that has the required 21 points to take Hemo, the DPS loss in just getting there would probably off-set any excessive gains.
Removing charges has the key benefit of making it more beneficial to a group, without buffing the rogue much individually. Capped by the group size (25) and time of the debuff (variable to Blizz's contentment, as always). The making it a purely debuff talent has the benefit of allowing all the full Subtlety rogues to stick with daggers, as most of the talents in the tree benefit Backstab/Ambush/etc far more than any mace/fist/sword abilities. It would certainly smooth out the talent point selection, sticking with dagger talents and a dagger benefiting Hemo all the way down the tree.
There are a lot of different approaches they could improve the debuff. Honestly I'm all for removing Hemo as an instant attack, and instead make it a debuff applied with your Rupture (that gives the same affect as Mangle, increasing bleed damage), provided they give another attack to facilitate stunlock in PvP. But really this discussion starts to trend towards WotLK "wish listing" (and additionally into the realm of PvP ideas) so I'll stay away from talking about them. The best we can do is hope that we can empirically prove to Ghostcrawler/the other Blizzard developers that Hemo is not an amazing raid debuff, and they do something to rectify the situation. Worst case though, at least we have two viable raiding specs for WotLK.
I don't think hemo is meant to be an amazing debuff. If they do buff it without changing the mechanics of it fundamentally, it would go against the whole raid buff redundancy. A hemo rogue would have that one unique debuff in which all the hard core min max guilds would guarantee a spot for just for the sake of the debuff.
The ways I could see it changing for it and to make sense is to probably roll it into one of the existing slots. Either make it a Bleed Debuff (Mangle/Trauma), or a Minor Armor Debuff (FF, Sting, CoR), cause major armor is probably too good. Hemo damage itself would have to be re-balanced around it.
I'm running 5/51/5 sword spec right now, and I find that with the SS glyph I sometimes have time for a longer cycle -- say 5s/5r/5e/5r if I get lucky enough on procs. I haven't done the math, so I'm just assuming it makes sense to do so, due to higher rupture uptime. However, I'm trying to figure out how much SS time I should have left before it makes sense to add the rupture, rather than refresh SnD early.
To be sure that you don't disrupt the cycle at all, you'd want to make sure you have enough energy regen time to do 5 SS and pool energy back to 60 before the SnD. That would be 200 energy, and so you'd need 16 seconds (12.5 eps w/ Vitality).
Alternatively, you can risk depleting the energy pool -- that's what it's for, after all -- and rupture with a minimum of 140 energy available -- so 11.2 seconds of SnD remaining. However, if you get no procs from SS and less than 2 procs from CP, you could be stuck waiting for energy to refresh SnD when it expires. Its a calculated risk, but the cost of SnD downtime is pretty high.
Instead, you could risk only 35 energy from the pool so that you will definitely have the energy for SnD when you need it -- that means rupture with 13.2 seconds of SnD remaining.
I'm assuming the last option the best choice simply because I imagine the DPS gain from a 4th finisher to be fairly small, and the dps loss for SnD downtime to be relatively high, but that its reasonably safe to take a loan from the energy pool to pay for it.
With all that said, now for the question: Am I correct in my assumptions? That is, a) that its useful to add a 4th finisher to the cycle when its possible to do so, and b) that the last option (>13.2 seconds) is the best breakpoint for attempting a 4th finisher?
Once the change to the ss glyph goes through the 4 finisher cycle will be easier to maintain, but will still be vulnerable to rng on procs. I believe a better cycle would be 5s/5r/*/5r where at * you ss past 5 combo points (burning combo points) while keeping energy topped off until your rupture falls off, at which point you refresh rupture and build back up to 5 to snd again.
At some gear point a 5s/5r/5e/5r will be maintainable, and better dps. Unfortunately I don't have the time/ability to model all of this.
Envenom's damage comes from two sources. The first source is a fixed amount of damage per poison dose consumed, which is 148 for rank 2 or 216 for rank 4. The second source is an AP-based amount per combo point spent, which is 7% for all ranks. As long as there is at least one dose of Deadly Poison on the target, you will get the full AP bonus for the number of CP you spent. However, you will only get the poison bonus for the number of doses of Deadly Poison you consume. Thus, an Envenom at 5 CP with only 2-3 Deadly Poison doses is still quite strong compared to an Envenom at 5 CP with 5 doses.
What then is the correct procedure if you have HfB and Rupture going strong, you have 4+ combo pts but fewer than 4 DPs? Do you wait a few seconds for the DPs to catch up, do you blindly Envenom as long as you have at least one DP, or are there times when Eviscerate would be the correct choice?
To ask a different way, what is the "inflection point" measured in DPs where a 4+ combo pt Eviscerate falls behind a 4+ Envenom with fewer than 4 DPs? I know this may not be a situation that happens often enough to matter, but it would be cool to know nonetheless.
...
I was also curious about a couple things regarding weapon speed for Mutilate.
Would it not be more beneficial to use slower daggers in solo or pvp situations where there is less time to take advantage of Focused attacks and poison procs? I know the answer isn't relevant to maximizing your raid dps, however I don't want non raiding rogues to think they should also use fast daggers if it isn't the case.
I remember reading somewhere that for a combat rogue (pre 3.0) each 0.1 sec faster that the offhand was it offered about a 10 dps increase compared to the slower one due to combat potency. Has a similar number been estimated for Mutilate daggers? In other words, if I had a 1.X dagger and a 1.X+1 dagger and the 1.X+1 dagger had a higher base dps value of Y, what would Y need to be so that I would see that higher dps offset the slower speed?
Well, regardless of the inflection point, if you have only 4 CPs saved up, there is another benefit to waiting until you get 5 DP stacks. Namely, if you do so then when you Envenom you will still have 1 single DP stack on the target, which means you can then immediately Mutilate right after the finisher without losing any Mutilate damage.
I think overall though it's a balancing act on whether or not you should pool for a couple seconds vs if you should just unload your Envenom ASAP. In some situations you're better off to not pool (your Berserking or Mirror of Truth is up, you're under Heroism/Hysteria/Tricks or what have you), but in other scenarios it's okay to pool for a second or two. At least the way I've been playing though, I generally only pool for instances where say my Rupture is about to fade in a couple of seconds, and I just want to save my CPs. I find it messes up my timing if I pool to see if I can get one more DP stack for Envenom. Though I certainly do wait for DP to be reapplied before Mutilating again if I wiped out the DP stack.
As for soloing PvE content while leveling, I'm thinking it may be beneficial to just get Imp. Evis + the Evis glyph (instead of Blood Splatter/Rupture Glyph), and use IP/WP as your poisons, for more instant damage, and just forgo Envenom. Because your DP won't really get very much time to tick in a fight that lasts only a couple of seconds, and generally speaking your Evis or Envenom is going to be largely overkill damage.
Currently Speced 5/51/5 Blood Elf, I have read most of these pages and it seems like Hit is not the best thing to socket anymore. I also use the spreadsheets and i see when i gem hit my dps will go up a little and when i gem agility or agility/hit it goes up more. I am just having a hard time not socketing plus hit. Is there a magic number out there that we need to be shooting for where when we gem hit it is actually a dps loss?
Last edited by bhicks31 : 10/21/08 at 4:17 PM.
Reason: more detail
With regards to Killing Spree in raids, I agree that it is disorienting and am still trying to adjust to this. In response to all of the posts specifically detailing how it cannot be used on KJ, well, you can use it during Shadow Spikes and you will not get punted. So long as you use it with at least ~4-5 seconds remaining on Spikes you have plenty of time to run out before he starts punting again. Just keep in mind that if your guild only uses 1/2 the room, you will be placed behind KJ but you can run straight through him if he is still channeling.
I was reading the latest blue notes today and it got me thinking about AE/single target DPS parity within the rogue specs themselves:
We'd love to get rogue AE higher if we can do it where Fan is only used for AE and not as a general part of the single-target rotation. Also note that comparing anyone to a Ret paladin recently, and especially at 70, isn't going to be a great comparison. Elemental isn't designed to have an advantage over mage single-target dps, but rogues should have an advantage over warrior single-target dps.
I am all for raising Rogue AE damage, however it seems to me that Combat is already far and away more capable at AE than the other 3 Rogue specs, and FoK will only exacerbate that advantage. With FoK being 100% weapon damage daggers have an inherit disadvantage and coupled with the lack of BF/KS, Mutilate specs will be significantly behind.
With Combat and Mutilate already being neck and neck in single target DPS and with GC positing that Combat will scale better, I have the unfortunate feeling that the Assassination tree will become unviable again.
RE: GC's comment about hemo, I think that this is simply a case of being uncareful in his statement, addressing people that don't analyze it properly, or both. During BC, Blizzard both dropped the number of charges, and increased the total damage from charges - simultaneously making the skill more attractive to use, and making it a lot easier to evaluate the strength of. After the changes went through, I have ballparked the value of the hemo debuff at several gear levels, and it has put hemo builds pretty close to premier raiding builds - if still inferior. I think it is clear that Blizzard knows how hemo works, and the value of it.
The problems with sub raiding builds is endemic to the tree, not hemo alone, and if you look, there are a decent number of points directly buffing hemo, especially considering it is a talent half way down the tree, rather than a base skill. (For comparison, look at the number of talent points directly buffing the skill mutilate). Deep sub still needs some work to live up to Blizz's implicit "all talent trees should be raid viable," even with HAT working the way it does. However, the solution is not simply to buff hemo, especially given the steps they have gone to in the tree in order to make backstab an option.
As to mind numbing vs. CoT, I seem to recall some ballpark analysis a few months ago that demonstrated that the opportunity cost of each was pretty on par, with it possibly costing us less to put up the debuff. That was before the 3.0 buff to poisons, so I'm certain that it's no longer true, but it's important to remember that warlocks have DPS curses, just as we have DPS poisons.
If someone could please articulate that well on the Beta boards it would be much obliged.
I put a response on the EU beta boards - if it's likely to be helpful, someone could copy it (or portions of it_ to the US boards.
Hiya,
Apologies for using these forums to respond directly to a post on the US forums, but out options here in EU are somewhat limited if we need to take direct issue with a developer's quotes. The post I'm responding to is located here:
There are a number of points I would like to take issue with.
Why is hemo so bad?
It has a great debuff that boosts raid damage. It’s not intended to be Sinister Strike.
The Hemo debuff is in a very strange place design-wise, since it does not integrate into the new buff system. Therefore it cannot be very powerful (or it would be required on all raids, contrary to the overall design goals). The problems with Hemo are threefold.
1) It is not a true raid debuff, instead it is limited by charges. This means that it does not scale with the number of people in the party/raid. In ANY group size of over about 5-6 people, every Hemo charge is used on every application. This means that if this talent is ever to be desirable for 25-man raiding, it will be overpowered in 10-man raiding. Conversely, if it's simply useful in 10-man raids, it will be useless in 25-man raids.
2) It is not a true raid debuff, in that it does not scale with your own gear level or that of your party/raid members. Instead, it confers a flat amount of damage per charge used. This means that it will be much more powerful at low gear levels than at high gear levels.
3) Finally, the bottom of the sub tree is about quicker combo point generation, reducing the proportion of builder moves you use, further marginalising Hemo as a skill and a talent.
As GC says in the linked post and the quote above, Hemo is not intended to be a replacement for Sinister Strike. However, BECAUSE the debuff does not scale with the number of people in the party, or with gear, then Hemo ends up as an SS replacement: an instant attack with a flat damage component. Furthermore, since talents benefit SS and not Hemo, Hemo is a strictly inferior replacement for SS and will never be used except perhaps in 5-10 man groups at low gear levels.
Frankly, I just don't understand the "not intended to be Sinister Strike" comment. Does GC mean that a Hemo spec rogue should be using Hemo and SS in their rotation? If so, then Hemo needs drastically more charges, so they're not all used up within the GCD! Otherwise you have to reapply it on every combo point building move, which makes Hemo into an SS replacement - just a bad one. If (instead) GC simply means that Hemo is intended to be worse than SS - why does Hemo exist if it's worse than a trained ability? The best interpretation I can come up with is that it should be worse than SS when solo, and better than SS in a raid situation. Right now it's failing in that goal.
Why is there a major glyph of feint?
Basically, rogues have relatively few abilities, and we were desperate for something that wouldn’t have serious PvP balance ramifications. I agree this might be a good candidate for a minor glyph. Remember that we are going to be adding a lot more glyphs over time. You shouldn't view this as one of your very few useful glyphs is less useful, because you'll eventually have a lot of choices.
I'd go further - why does Feint exist? With the massive increases in tank threat, a full aggro drop on Vanish, and the new Tricks of the Trade, no rogue will ever need to Feint. It was useless before TBC, it was useless in TBC, and it will be useless in WoTLK.
Why is Fan of Knives so weak with daggers, and even weak with swords?
It's designed to give you a button to hit when you want to AE. It's not supposed to turn you into an AE class, if that makes sense.
GC's missing the point. This is not a general QQ about rogue AoE (although that's also justified). Fan of Knives is based off weapon damage, meaning it does about half as much damage with daggers equipped as it does with swords equipped. If it goes live in its current state, EVERY dagger rogue will have to carry a pair of swords round with them to put in a weapon-swap macro for AoE situations. This is utterly ridiculous, especially given their explicit goal of making daggers more desirable. Fan needs to be based off weapon DPS rather than weapon damage.
How exactly are expose, mind numbing and wound major raid utility, when they so obviously are not?
Couple of things here, and forgive me for being a little brief.
First, I am reading between the lines a little here that it would be really nice to have a unique buff or debuff. Everyone asks for that, but it defeats the whole point.
Second, Expose is one of the strongest debuffs in the game. The dps increase can be 30% or more. So I suspect what you're really getting at is that "we'll always have a warrior with us doing that debuff." The whole point of the revamp is we can’t assume you have anyone but we still want you to be able to get the buff. Mind Numbing is a cast speed debuff that is only offered by one other class (that doesn’t even exist in the game at the moment). Granted, it doesn't offer the benefit of Expose. Wounding Poison offers the strongest debuff in the game for PvP, and also offers some dps to not over-penalize rogues who are balanced around poison damage.
<snark> If unique buffs are defeating the whole point, then what is going on with the unique Hemo buff that's so useful in raids? </snark>
That aside, GC is again missing the point. Yes, Expose is a useful raid debuff if you have no warrior. It is also impossible to apply on any short fight due to the need to build a full 5 combo points. In Heroics and raids you might be able to at least apply it, however it also carries an extremely high opportunity cost. A combat rogue sacrifices ALL finisher DPS except Slice'n'Dice in order to keep Expose Armor up. A Mutilate rogue will sacrifice less of their finisher damage, but will waste combo points due to the need do use 5-point finishers, with Mutilate granting two and Seal Fate proccing unpredictably. Sunder Armor is refreshed with a single low-cost abiilty - refreshing EA costs a full 5-point finisher. I don't have an objection to their being a cost to stack it, but PLEASE make it easier to refresh.
The same argument - opportunity cost - also applies to Mind-numbing poison. Poisons are now a major part of rogue DPS - using Mind-numbing instead of Instant will cost you about 10% of your damage. No rogue will ever use it if there's a warlock in the raid with Curse of Tongues. Mind-numbing needs a damage component, just like Wound poison. I'll hold fire on comments about overall raid utility of Mind-Numbing and Wound poisons until I see what the WoTLK fights look like. Mind-Numbing is only useful if bosses cast spells which are (a) interruptible and (b) fast cast time so you can't reliably interrupt without Mind-Numbing. In TBC, the only boss that matches this is RoS phase 2. Wound is only useful if a boss casts a non-interruptible self-heal. In TBC, the only boss that matches this is Illidan.
TLDR version:
1) Hemo needs re-working and integrating into the new buff system.
2) Fan of Knives needs to be based off weapon DPS, not weapon base damage.
3) Mind-numbing poison needs a damage component, like Wound Poison, to reduce the opportunity cost of keeping it up.
4) Expose Armor should have some way of reducing the opportunity cost of keeping it up. A way fo refreshing it without sacrificing combo points would be ideal. Perhaps this could be a second effect of Dismantle?
5) Feint needs taking out and shooting. Seriously, do something, anything with it. For a class with a 100% aggro drop skill, a spammable small aggro reduction is pointless. Perhaps it could act like Hand of Salvation and reduce someone else's threat?
It just shows how unfamiliar with EA I am, it's been so long I didn't notice it got changed. Then Blizz going on about how great it is seems clearly aimed at 5-10 man content sans warrior.
I haven't done any number crunching or anything, but at quick glance, it seems that Relentless Strikes isnt the end all must have talent with the improved energy regen of the combat tree.
Throwing 5 points into Seal of Fate combined with the SS glyph looks to be very fun.
Any thoughts? Or better yet, any hard numbers for this build compared to other builds.
I was also curious about a couple things regarding weapon speed for Mutilate.
Would it not be more beneficial to use slower daggers in solo or pvp situations where there is less time to take advantage of Focused attacks and poison procs? I know the answer isn't relevant to maximizing your raid dps, however I don't want non raiding rogues to think they should also use fast daggers if it isn't the case.
I remember reading somewhere that for a combat rogue (pre 3.0) each 0.1 sec faster that the offhand was it offered about a 10 dps increase compared to the slower one due to combat potency. Has a similar number been estimated for Mutilate daggers? In other words, if I had a 1.X dagger and a 1.X+1 dagger and the 1.X+1 dagger had a higher base dps value of Y, what would Y need to be so that I would see that higher dps offset the slower speed?
Your first question can probably be answered by the spreadsheet. To be honest, I doubt you'll notice a considerable difference between weapon speeds for a Mutilate build when leveling. Any moderate or better gear set is going to make leveling a joke early on, and even when it gets replaced mobs are still going to die so quickly that it's not going to matter much one way or the other. By design, leveling is not "hard" and optimizing damage to the finer points is likely an exercise in wasting your time. Non-raiding Rogues are reading the wrong thread if their interest is in leveling and PvP. The trend in PvP has generally been towards fast OH daggers for poison application and lower-energy Shiv costs. Whether this has changed or not with the change to energy regen and poison proc rate I'm not sure, but I imagine the PvP thread has the answer (though most choices such as this come down to personal preference). Chalon's comment on WP\IP and Evis was along the lines of what I was planning on doing myself, and good advice. Also note that the currently accepted raid specs are probably not optimal for leveling either and you may want to change your talent points around a bit to reflect this.
For the second question, I recall Aldrianna estimated that the conversion is likely about the same, but I don't recall seeing any hard evidence posted. I don't think that there is a definitive answer yet, but frankly it's also not that big of a deal at this point and unlikely to be answered until into the xpac.
I haven't done any hard and fast numbers on weapon speed versus weapon damage from Mutilate; the only ballpark figures I've done can be found here, in a post a made on the WoW forums. I make no claims that those numbers are correct, but that's the ballpark we're talking about in terms of weapon speed. The gap isn't quite as large as it is for OH Combat Potency weapons, but it's still significant.
More exact numbers will be available in a few weeks once we have better models of the level 80 behavior.
I haven't done any number crunching or anything, but at quick glance, it seems that Relentless Strikes isnt the end all must have talent with the improved energy regen of the combat tree.
Throwing 5 points into Seal of Fate combined with the SS glyph looks to be very fun.
Any thoughts? Or better yet, any hard numbers for this build compared to other builds.
With Calamity's Grasp being the BEST rogue wep in game by such a far margin I would figure that 41/25/5 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would be optimal. (Edit: ...for a fun Seal fate, SS build)
Regarding Fan of Knives dealing "weapon damage", I'll quote myself from this thread: Fan of Knives = Awful
I seem to recall reading (like 1-2 months ago) that the "100% weapon damage" component of FoK was reworked to be more "dagger friendly."
I immediately logged into Beta and ran to Stratholme Past. I pulled a few dozen of the non-elite Skeletons in the first few streets and FoK'd with a pair of fast daggers equipped. Screenshotted the damage, then swapped to a pair of slow maces, did the same thing. Absolutely no variation in damage whatsoever. Although the tooltip still said "deals 100% weapon damage." So I just assumed, "They must have forgotten to update the tooltip."
Here we are, quite some time later, and I'm still seeing threads like this, and it makes me wonder what just went on. I'll try to find the original post about FoK changes and link it...
Well that didn't take very long at all. A quick search and I found this blue post, dated August 29th:
4) Expose Armor should have some way of reducing the opportunity cost of keeping it up. A way fo refreshing it without sacrificing combo points would be ideal. Perhaps this could be a second effect of Dismantle?
How about a chance to restore combo points per talent point invested? Or just make it do damage.
What is the deal with the Glyph of Sprint?
If I understand the qustion, I think it's just a tooltip bug. The glyph was made before the base cooldown of Sprint was lowered from 5 minutes to 3 minutes (2 min talented). If that's not the issue, can you elaborate a little more?
It's not a tooltip bug. I've timed the cooldown and glyphed it's 2 mins 45 seconds when it should be 2 mins. When I ticketed a GM he told me they were aware of the issue. So perhaps he lied to me.
Forgive me if Im missing the obvious, but in a bg, running 5/51/5 I hit a 5 point deadly throw on a mage who blinked away, and had a combo point left to deadly him again 2 seconds later, as I was running at him. Where did that combo point come from? Aside from ruthlessness not awarding a combo point on deadly throw, I dont even have ruthlessness. It was a crit DT however, is it possible the SS glyph added the combo point?
I don't know if it's related, but priests are getting benefits from talents they don't have but other priests in their raid have for some reason. Could be the same thing here, some rogue in your BG has setup or honor among thieves and the game is treating you as having the talent as well.
10/21/08, 2:36 PM
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