It's also worth noting that, last I checked, no one ever claimed the 5s5r5e cycle was tight. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's been previously asserted in this thread (and if it hasn't, I'm asserting it now) that 3s5r5e and perhaps even 2s5r5e should be sustainable, at least at level 80 with proper gearing. So I can't say I'm particularly surprised that 5s5r5e sometimes yields excess SnD uptime.
I've actually been running something like 4+s/5r/4+n, depending on SS procs, however unlike mutilate where I wouldn't mut if I have 4 cp, if my energy looks good and my snd is still up, I'll throw up that extra ss for the 5 point envenom, and/or snd. This rotation seems to give me a lot of play either way if there is a good or bad string of cp procs. Sadly I haven't put this to a "real" dps test yet as our server is so laggy that we had 5s between instants on every gorefiend and brutallus kill I was in on.
I can say with certainty though that combat is a lot more volatile then it was, as far as a rotation goes.
Originally Posted by Xythil
The current Roguecraft Spreadsheet does not model Wound poison. Is wound poison currently still superior to IP untalented?
Yes it is.
Edit: Your instant poison needs to do 2.5 times the damage of your wound poison to be as good discounting the envenom buff, add in the envenom buff and that number drops a bit but not enough to pull IP ahead.
Yes Xythil, at least at level 70 it is. Sp00n updated the 3.1 spreadsheet to add Wound Poison and some other features like state weighting approximations, download it here.
How does mutilate compare with combat on trash and fights like M'uru, where you're only dpsing adds for the first half. It seems a good bit lower than a 5/51/5 combat build for M'uru, at least, and I'm curious if it's my own shortcomings in playing the spec (doubtful since I've been parsing well into the 2100-2500 range on everything else), or the lack of Killing Spree and Blade Flurry.
Thanks for the post. I was actually discussing doing something like this in my guild's rogue forums right before reading your post. With raid-wide buffs and raid members in high crit end-game gear, after reading the post on HAT last night I've drooled at the idea of trying this out. Most of what you typed up is what I had swimming in my head. Sub has very little synergy, and the fact you wouldn't actually perform Hemo very much, but rely on finishing moves more seems backwards. Building combo points when off target wasn't something that actually occured to me though, and that's definitely a plus for fights where we spend a lengthy time off target.
This was one of the biggest bonuses I found to it. On 3 of the 6 bosses in the ZA run there were significant time spent off-boss, and during this time I could keep the boss targetted, and either run back in for some quick 3-4k finishers, or spam deadly throw when I couldn't get in there (zuljin for example).
I notice a lot of guys skipping lolstep in their builds. It really is a valuable talent, lolstep your rupture or envenom for some crazy numbers. Plus it reduces off-boss time for higher dps overall.
You may like to see the huge numbers that the Shadowstep buff gives you, but generally speaking a 20% damage increase is not worth 10 energy when paired with abilities that have a low energy cost. For example, you can Eviscerate for 10 energy total (after Relentless Strikes refund), or you can do a 120% damage Eviscerate for 20 energy if you combine it with Shadowstep. Doubling the effective energy cost for 20% more damage doesn't really make sense.
Now, if you are finding yourself GCD starved (instead of energy starved) because using finishers constantly just doesn't eat up enough energy with Relentless Strikes constantly refunding, then I could see it being worthwhile since Shadowstep doesn't trigger a GCD, but it's still not a significant increase in damage output either way. I haven't seen Honor Among Thieves in a raiding environment yet, but I'm assuming you can't just spam 5-pt finishers every second. (And if you can I doubt it'll last very long that way.)
On the other hand, using Shadowstep to close a gap is of course a good use of energy.
If Sub/HAT can truely be considered a viable raiding spec, I would suspect that since most of the damage comes from finishers, a spec like this 10/7/44 would be more viable than 5/12/44 or maybe even dropping the 3 in ruthlessness for imp evisc. I don't see precision as a particularly important part of a rogue who's dps is considerably more yellow than a normal rogue.
There was a WWS report a few pages back from a BT run as Subt/HAT. While yes our finishers are accounting for much more dps, it seems to be taking the place of SS/Muti, rather than white damage. White damage still seems to sit around the 50% mark which I think is roughly on par with the current state of combat and assassination?
Precision is dubious, depending on your gear. If you completely gem for agi, and are still over 200 hit then yeah its not worth the 5 points, which can then be pushed into talents increasing finisher damage. I have a feeling I will end up with 3 points in it, purely to get to CQC. Given you don't have access to the important talents for daggers in the muti tree, would anyone disagree that MH Slow Fist/ OH Fast Dag would be best for this build?
If Sub/HAT can truely be considered a viable raiding spec, I would suspect that since most of the damage comes from finishers, a spec like this 10/7/44 would be more viable than 5/12/44 or maybe even dropping the 3 in ruthlessness for imp evisc. I don't see precision as a particularly important part of a rogue who's dps is considerably more yellow than a normal rogue.
you won't need ruthlessness if you have a dd team that has a high crit rate with their styles. also shs will increare your rupture/envenom/evis dmg whatever but it cost you ten energie. this may have a small impact on your rotation but nonethelesss you actually need up to 43 points and hemo can be exchanged by shiv. you won't need hemo if you spam finishers.
Originally Posted by Deke
There was a WWS report a few pages back from a BT run as Subt/HAT. While yes our finishers are accounting for much more dps, it seems to be taking the place of SS/Muti, rather than white damage. White damage still seems to sit around the 50% mark which I think is roughly on par with the current state of combat and assassination?
Precision is dubious, depending on your gear. If you completely gem for agi, and are still over 200 hit then yeah its not worth the 5 points, which can then be pushed into talents increasing finisher damage. I have a feeling I will end up with 3 points in it, purely to get to CQC. Given you don't have access to the important talents for daggers in the muti tree, would anyone disagree that MH Slow Fist/ OH Fast Dag would be best for this build?
i posted the report and i have about 269 hit rating with 3/5 precision in pve equip.
You aren't timing your Overkill usage properly if you're only getting 20 energy out of it. You should get about 40 energy out of it when starting from stealth, and 30-40 energy if you use the Vanish trick. I'm not saying it's amazing by any means, but I am saying it's situationally useful. Yeah you aren't going to do Vanish/Overkill on a fight where you might need your Vanish, but that's few and far between to be honest.
I like it better than Vigor simply because it gives me more control. I can't necessarily control when I'm going to have sufficient downtime to cap out on Energy, but I can control when and at which point I Vanish/Overkill.
I definitely agree it's a lackluster and not that great of a talent, but I just disagree that it doesn't have its uses.
It's 40 energy in perfect use, which are quite a headache to reach in an already annoyingly attention-requiring cycle (yes, I hate the constant refreshing of HfB). I prefer to consider it a 20-30 energy move, at the cost of vanish.
Of course it may have its use, but as someone else said, we're trying to find use for it because we HAVE to have it. Nobody in their right mind would waste a talent point on it (except perhaps for PvP), because it's only use is very, very inefficient.
And I still prefer Vigor, precisely for the same reason you prefer Overkill : to have a little more control. I can't totally control when I'll get maxed out in energy, so I prefer to have something alleviating it a bit.
Guess it's a different point of view in the matter
Originally Posted by Xythil
The current Roguecraft Spreadsheet does not model Wound poison. Is wound poison currently still superior to IP untalented?
Actually, untalented, IP is the single worst damage-dealing poison.
As such, only Assassination rogues have a reason to use it ; for Combat and Sub rogues, it's better to use the others, which not only have superior DPS, but also some utility.
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
If Sub/HAT can truely be considered a viable raiding spec, I would suspect that since most of the damage comes from finishers, a spec like this 10/7/44 would be more viable than 5/12/44 or maybe even dropping the 3 in ruthlessness for imp evisc. I don't see precision as a particularly important part of a rogue who's dps is considerably more yellow than a normal rogue.
I've played with 10/7/44 Sub/HaT build quite a lot and in it's current form I don't see it raid viable because lack of damage output. It lacks from 300 to 500 DPS behind Combat Swords build most of the time.
Problem with Sub/HaT is that combo points are not anywhere near as good damage source as energy is. It's better to gain energy than CP's because we only got two decent finishers (SnD, Rupture and in some cases Envenom like for Mutilate). With HaT your CP gen is extremely fun and fast with decent party built around you, but once SnD and Rupture are running you end up spamming 4-6 Eviscerates inside the cycle while waiting SnD refresh.
Excessive number of combo points does not outweight energy simply because Eviscerate is not good source of damage.
I've played with 10/7/44 Sub/HaT build quite a lot and in it's current form I don't see it raid viable because lack of damage output. It lacks from 300 to 500 DPS behind Combat Swords build most of the time.
Problem with Sub/HaT is that combo points are not anywhere near as good damage source as energy is. It's better to gain energy than CP's because we only got two decent finishers (SnD, Rupture and in some cases Envenom like for Mutilate). With HaT your CP gen is extremely fun and fast with decent party built around you, but once SnD and Rupture are running you end up spamming 4-6 Eviscerates inside the cycle while waiting SnD refresh.
Excessive number of combo points does not outweight energy simply because Eviscerate is not good enough damage.
with HaT you actually should never run out of SnD and Rupture. If your out, then your rotation is messed up. you have plenty of energy because you always finish with 5 cp finisher and therefore always have extra energy from RS.
I think you completely missed the point of his post Drow.
He is neither stating that he's letting SnD/Rupture drop nor running out of energy. What Ekval is getting at is the fact that although CP generation is above and beyond other builds allowing for many more finishers, Eviscerate does not make up the damage you would be getting when using your energy for CP generating instants.
Also, the gained energy regeneration from the other trees gives more DPS output than the CPs generated from HAT would give.
If Sub/HAT can truely be considered a viable raiding spec, I would suspect that since most of the damage comes from finishers, a spec like this 10/7/44 would be more viable than 5/12/44 or maybe even dropping the 3 in ruthlessness for imp evisc. I don't see precision as a particularly important part of a rogue who's dps is considerably more yellow than a normal rogue.
Appologies, but that is more of a PvP spec, not a PvE spec.
You simply cannot justify taking Master of Deception and Camo (picking one of the two is more or less mandatory though) and Elusiveness and Cheat Death while there are talents available that give a less remote chance of increasing DPS, like the ones on tier 4.
Shadowstep is extremely marginal in its raiding viability, while you could get Filthy Tricks instead, and reach for a reduction on hemo energy in SftS.
Granted you won't use hemo that much anymore playing HaT, but it allows you to noticably tighten your rotations.
I agree on the Ruthlessness being replacable by Imp Evisc, at least while in a group with a high crit rate and a high HaT procrate. But that is a matter for lvl 80, and if you're wielding fists/dagger then CQC might still be a better choice, but that's a matter of figuring out later, when raid models have been developed better, and rogue calculators can be updated to reflect this.
I think you completely missed the point of his post Drow.
He is neither stating that he's letting SnD/Rupture drop nor running out of energy. What Ekval is getting at is the fact that although CP generation is above and beyond other builds allowing for many more finishers, Eviscerate does not make up the damage you would be getting when using your energy for CP generating instants.
Also, the gained energy regeneration from the other trees gives more DPS output than the CPs generated from HAT would give.
I hope that came out right. It's 2:30am here -.-
That's pretty much my thoughts in nutshell :P Busy working so my own text can be sometimes vague.
Edit: The build I used and which should be the best for level 70 Sub/HaT PvE, if you can call it that. Imp. Eviscerate -> Ruthlessness. SftS isn't worth it from my experience since you hardly do hemorrhages, mostly one hemo per finisher cycle. You only need HaT + everything that increases finishers damage (crit talents for boosting Eviscerates and so on).
Appologies, but that is more of a PvP spec, not a PvE spec.
You simply cannot justify taking Master of Deception and Camo (picking one of the two is more or less mandatory though) and Elusiveness and Cheat Death while there are talents available that give a less remote chance of increasing DPS, like the ones on tier 4.
Mmh, sorry, but I fail to see any worthy DPS talent you could prefer to Elusiveness and MoD + Camo. The start of the tree is simply devoid of anything improving your DPS except RS and SB. The choice is only about the utility you would prefer. There is Setup, Initiative and Improved Ambush at tier 4. None of them offer anything noticeable in DPS increase, especially with HaT which already fills your CP faster than you can use them.
So why not take convenience/utility talents if it doesn't make your DPS suffer ? I would for sure take Elusiveness, MoD and Camo in any of my Sub builds. They simply do not cost me anything in raid, while making my life easier everywhere.
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
Appologies, but that is more of a PvP spec, not a PvE spec.
You simply cannot justify taking Master of Deception and Camo (picking one of the two is more or less mandatory though) and Elusiveness and Cheat Death while there are talents available that give a less remote chance of increasing DPS, like the ones on tier 4.
Shadowstep is extremely marginal in its raiding viability, while you could get Filthy Tricks instead, and reach for a reduction on hemo energy in SftS.
Granted you won't use hemo that much anymore playing HaT, but it allows you to noticably tighten your rotations.
I agree on the Ruthlessness being replacable by Imp Evisc, at least while in a group with a high crit rate and a high HaT procrate. But that is a matter for lvl 80, and if you're wielding fists/dagger then CQC might still be a better choice, but that's a matter of figuring out later, when raid models have been developed better, and rogue calculators can be updated to reflect this.
I tend to agree more with akka on this because in this build you're not likely to use daggers and are *possibly* gcd starved so switching to a dagger for ambush when you vanish does not seem like a profitable thing, almost all raid bosses are not cheapshottable, and while you could garrote, and in fact do 30% more damage with it, you don't really need the extra combo point. Thus is my reasoning for not taking it, Definitely ruthlessness isn't worth taking however for the same reason so this is probably the better spec, best spec? I don't know for sure but at 80 I imagine dropping imp snd for Vile/Imp poisons would be highly beneficial and allow for more envenom spam and the switch to IP.
Originally Posted by specter
Does KS scale with weapon damage or weapon dps?
Would it be worth it to equip a slow OH before using?
It scales with weapon damage and is normalized, so you would get a very marginal benefit from equipping a slow offhand, but you would see a benefit, as long as the damage range was higher than the weapon you're currently using in your offhand, however you continue to autoattack during ks and I think combat potency can still proc during the spree but not as a direct result of one of the spree attacks, so with a slow offhand you're nerfing your energy regen for 2.5 seconds in exchange for a minor boost in damage.
OH KS attacks do proc CP, but they won't in the next push according to GC's post. Swapping weapons still interrupts the swing timer though right? So switching weapons to KS doesn't make sense regardless.
As I am reading this discussion here, it has moved me from long time lurker to actually posting.
It looks like the discussion is going back to emphasize hit. I have the basic understand on the current theory behind why hit is less important than it was, but after looking at the practice from my guild's (and other's) WWS, I am not convinced that hit has been dropped from the #1 priority stat. It may have lost its lead, but it is still mighty.
Much of this below is copied from a post in my guild's Rogue forum.
Here is the WWS of my Guild's Tuesday attempt on Mount Hyjal.
<The Stormguard> are in WoW terms probably a mediocre raiding guild, but in the purgatory of our low population server (we took a free transfer), we are among Top 3 Alliance guilds (the top Guild is only a few bosses into Sunwell). However, when it comes to player skill, I would put our Rogues up against anyone.
I was assassination in Badge/low end MH/BT gear. One of the Rogues was combat in higher end BT/MH gear, and the other was assassination in mostly pvp gear (coming back from a long hiatus).
All my yellow damage averaged higher (except Envenom because I was more concerned about using it to refresh Slice and Dice than damage), yet I was second in swing damage. As swing damage is the highest contribution in any build, I was #2 on total DPS.
Looking at the WWS details, I missed with my swing a whopping 15% while our top rogue missed with only 2.6% of his attacks. I assume it has to do more with my lower hit value of 278 while he has not yet re-gemmed and was capped. Our crit rate being approximately the same, I think it shows that hit is still the mighty Rogue stat. On a side note, our dispellers were terrible without their addons so we had a lot more Banshee's cure than we should have.
The clincher I think is the third Rogue in PvP gear had a higher crit and significantly higher miss rate (27%), which is where you would expect a Rogue without hit to be.
In most of the other WWS's I have seen, the #1 Rogue is consistently the one who misses less with white damage. I realize that WWS has had issues, but I suspect that it doesn't have as much issue measuring white damage.
To sum it up, as white damage is still the single biggest source of damage for a Rogue, hit is still the single best way to boost this damage, keeping its crown as the most important statistic to stack for Rogues.
Well, that would be true if hit was the only stat that improved white damage. Fortunately, AP and Agi do too. I think taking some WWS parses and noticing the highest dps had the highest hit is a pretty hasty way to decide what stats are most valuable compared to the hours upon hours of research and math many who post on these boards have done to prove otherwise.
Well, that would be true if hit was the only stat that improved white damage. Fortunately, AP and Agi do too. I think taking some WWS parses and noticing the highest dps had the highest hit is a pretty hasty way to decide what stats are most valuable compared to the hours upon hours of research and math many who post on these boards have done to prove otherwise.
Exactly, there is no causality relationship demonstrated in anything he said. It is definitely not surprising that the highest dps rogue had the best gear.
A better comparison would have been if that top rogue regems for agi/crit next week and compare it to the past week's parse with hit, but even then it's a small sample size and wouldn't be conclusive any way, it would just be a better comparison.
Looking at the WWS details, I missed with my swing a whopping 15% while our top rogue missed with only 2.6% of his attacks. I assume it has to do more with my lower hit value of 278 while he has not yet re-gemmed and was capped. Our crit rate being approximately the same, I think it shows that hit is still the mighty Rogue stat
I have to disagree with this statement, if anything it should indicate to you that hit is not as valuable for Mutilate. If you look at your WWS again for that night you were within 100 dps, or less, of the combat rogue for every kill as well as overall. The difference in your damage was 1% or less, a difference I consider to be negligible.
Edit: Clarified quote I was referring to, it read a little less clearly than I first thought.
To sum it up, as white damage is still the single biggest source of damage for a Rogue, hit is still the single best way to boost this damage, keeping its crown as the most important statistic to stack for Rogues.
Your conclusion is based on 3 rogues while focusing on the hit and crit ignoring all others? There are other dps stats as well, AP, armor pen, haste. No clue how the rogues were geared for that other stuff. Your #1 rogue could just have better stats overall, and hit was coincidentally above the others along with it.
Looking at armory here's how it looks:
Beonu - The max hit rogue? Human sword rogue with 2091 AP, 23.86% crit, with DST/Shard too.
Kmannkoopa - You. 1919 AP, 25.4% crit, with Romulo's/Berserker's
Silentthief - The pvp rogue? 1599 AP, 35.28% crit, with pvp trinkets
Just looking at the basic stats looks like Beonu is just better geared (not optimally geared but that's another story). The pvp rogue is now where near you guys in AP, so yea, poor pve gear.
Also Kmannkoopa, you are using slow daggers for mutilate when fast daggers are better. The difference of your dps if you used faster daggers and used instant poison on the faster of the two daggers would have probably put you ahead of him.
Does KS scale with weapon damage or weapon dps?
Would it be worth it to equip a slow OH before using?
Can we please not use "KS" as an abbreviation for "Killing Spree"? It's already commonly used for "Kidney Shot" in the rogue community, and these forums are confusing enough for non-English WoW players as it is.
I see no disagreements with what any of you are saying. I have seen similar trends with other WWS's I have seen. Becuase these are not my guild, I will not post them but in all cases the Rogue hitting the most is winning DPS, I encourage someone to post otherwise.
I have yet to see a post 3.0 WWS where the Rogue who hit less did not top DPS. Yes, considering how much I did miss showed that mutilate is less sensitive to hit.
I posted because it appeared that the first series of post 3.0 posts were making the argument that hit is not the key stat anymore.
Heck, even as my data shows, hit is very likely less important than it used to be. My argument is that is still the most important stat to raise. It goes back to the fact that one more successful attack does hundreds more damage where more AP is not as dramatic.
I do have one question though...
Originally Posted by Leto
but even then it's a small sample size and wouldn't be conclusive any way, it would just be a better comparison.
When is the sample size sufficient to compare to the theoretical data?
My Applied Probability book is on its way back from overseas, but I do know that we can figure this out. Think of the current US Presidential election where they get the opinion of 300 million people from a sample of only 1,000 or less. I suspect that we get a sufficient sample size in no more than three or four WWS with the same groups and gear (not even necessarily the same mobs). The whole point of this thread is determine the theoretical maximum and apply it. If it becomes just an exercise in math, then there are far more interesting and more important topics to talk about than World of Warcraft. I am an Engineer in my day job, so taking science (coming up with mathematical equations to define abilities) and applying is (raiding) what I get paid to do. One thing to remember that in the end it is applying this data that is what we have this thread of more than 150 pages to do.
10/23/08, 2:38 AM
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