Xaoc

Spell use a 2 roll system: 1st roll for hit/miss, 2nd roll for dmg or resist.

 

saedo

It's probably part of the homonogization of gear, in particular for us, with Feral Druids. I believe there's no more "tanking" leather gear as such, and devs want them to use the same set for their tank and dps needs. In turn, means our dps gear as well. It's kind of the fact everyone has to face, the "ideal" stat allocation for your specific class/spec probably won't exist as much anymore.

 

Jagiya

I'm assuming this is in response to my post regarding Setup... in which case I don't see the relevance. (By "Resist", I'm assuming you mean partial? Because full resists were replaced by misses.)

As for the STA on Leather, the above post pretty much covers it, but there's always that silent baseline required to survive stuff like Slash/Burn/Arcane Buffet/Najentus Bubble etc for raids.

 

Sindeady

With trash mobs dying as fast as they do, would it be better to use slower daggers on trash for higher Mut damage? Then go back to [Edge of Oppression] for bosses?

 

Haoli

I apologize for the request, but I've run the search tool multiple times on this thread, and the whole forum for stat values/EP weights, but could not find a link to the post on Combat and Mutilate stat weighting.

Does anyone know the post number, or happen to have saved the table (the rough one, for quick referencing)?

To add to the discussion:

I believe that it was recently stated that faster daggers were no longer inherently superior regardless of dps stats, so using more equivalent damage daggers (from t5-t6 content, or badge daggers) would be more efficient. Although, speed still plays a high factor, so using faster daggers of equivalent ilvl to the suggested and compared slower daggers is still better.

 

Imiut

Haoli, hope you didn't look too far back, it's just two pages.

 

Susa

Yeah, thats what im goin for now, but trackers isnt out of my reach for the moment, done several Rage kills, esp now after 3.0.2, but i think edge/45badge is where im gonna leave it till wotlk, just never rolled on it cause Combat sword, ty for the input tho

 

Pinch

A lot of non-set gear slots (in Naxx, anyways) have two options. It seems they have been itemized so that one has quite a bit more stamina than the other one. A good example is two ilvl 213 chests from Naxx25:
Tunic of Indulgence - Item - World of Warcraft
Chestpiece of Suspicion - Item - World of Warcraft

Chestpiece of Suspicion looks to be more of a Feral chest, high agi/stam, all stats can be made good use of by the feral.
In the end, it doesn't make too much of a difference, and just eases up loot problems by creating more chances to fill out your gear slots since a few classes still want leather anyways.

 

drumbum

Full resists do still exist. I think a lot of rogues (and probably many casters as well) don't fully understand the spell 2-roll system, so to give a crash course on what exactly changed from pre-3.0 to post-3.0, I'll paste the relevant portions of a post I made on a different forum recently:

Please keep in mind that I'm not saying that spell and physical rolls work exactly the same other than the terms used. There are other more complicated differences, such as how spells can partially resist (which can only happen with dodge-type resists). Instead my intention is to give a basic idea on how it works. This should explain why you still can see full resists in game.

Also it's worth mentioning that Blizzard doesn't appear to have updated the terminology on all of their spell and talent tooltips yet. For example, Cloak of Shadows says that it increases your chance to resist spells by 90%. However, as of 3.0, it actually causes spells to MISS you, not resist. It seems plausible that Setup may still be triggering off spell misses, although if you are observing otherwise then perhaps there is a bug there (or intended change?).

 

Rectafire

I have read back roughly 25-35 pages of this thread (150+ pages is a bit daunting). So I apologize if this has already been talked about.

Now that Blizzard is attempting to make both Assassination and Combat viable PVE DPS builds, doing roughly the same amount of damage, would this mean that Human rogues with Sword Specialization would do more DPS as combat swords, or some variation of sword/CQC rather than Mut?

I understand that since hit rating has dropped a bit from the "top stat" so has expertise and is why I am posing this question.

 

Demi9OD

The spreadsheet tells me with identical stats, Swords are better on my Human rogue until I reach expertise cap through gear, at which point Fist/Dagger becomes the better combo. This is somewhat offset by the availability of 1.3 speed daggers and only 1.5 speed swords. Both still fall behind mutilate on murderable mobs, and are almost dead even otherwise.

 

Leto

Check the spreadsheet if you want specifics to make an informed decision, but I'd imagine they would be close enough to the point that play style preference would still be the largest factor in your decision.

What do you like more? Raiding as combat or mutilate? If you pick one you don't like to play simply because you perceive it as top dps, then you won't be as effective while playing.

Rogue at heart.

 

Nerio

I'm attempting to sift through the thread to find blurbs about this... but for combat builds, the best way to go is Wound MH Deadly OH because of the higher chance for wound to proc? I'm not so great with excel, but is there an easy way to add this into the spreadsheet?

 

Leto

Put wound on the faster weapon, so your oh for combat.

Rogue at heart.

 

Rambaral

Using the spreadsheet, even with the human racial and my combat gear, Mut was still 100+ dps more. Having been Cswords for a long time, playing a different way is a welcome change, the extra dps is just a nice excuse to do so.

 

Rectafire

TY for the help about Human rogues, I wasnt using the spreadsheet proper. I forgot to change my combo point builder to Mut. for my Mut. build big difference lol

Are you sure about this? My spread sheet is telling me that if I have Merc. Slicer MH and Merc. Quickblade OH that ill do more DPS if Wound is MH and Deadly is OH.

I am assuming this is because finishers have a chance to proc MH poison only.

Than again I wasnt using the spreadsheet proper before so I could be wrong lol.

Yea, in T4 gear my combat build does 2005.9 compared to 2123.89 for Mut.

I am a little scared to change to Mut. since I have never played it before on my previous rogue but Mut. seems like it takes a bit more skill so I am all for it.

 

Nerio

Try combat fist/swords if you have access to a equivalent fist weapon for your main hand. It boosted my combat dps a ton, well ahead of mutilate on non murberable bosses.

 

Ena.the.rogue

Regardless of theorycrafting or what a spreadsheet indicates, you'll become a better player by trying out now specs and learning to respond to what's going on rather than just mashing the same two buttons. New specs are fun, not just when they do more DPS but because you actually need to think about what you're doing again. That being said, some people are just not meant to play this or that spec; if it feels too uncomfortable or you just can't get the hang of it, you'll never reach that theoretical dps. Find the spec that works best for you.

Dew. Be. Dew. Be. Dew.

 

Leto

I'm not sure about it... it could be that the sword spec procs + ss, finishers, etc make up for the speed difference. I'm not combat though, so I don't have any actual testing with it.

Rogue at heart.

 

Demi9OD

You only need enough DP procs to keep up a 5 stack. With reasonable hit this is easy with a fast offhand. Your mainhand ends up swinging more due to sword spec, sinister strike, rupture, and eviscerate, resulting in more wound procs. The other benefit to DP OH is the ability to shiv a 5 stack that is about to expire.

 

Leto

Indeed, my mistake, I've been too focused on mutilate lately.
Here's a post that addresses this same topic 10 pages ago.

Rogue at heart.

 

Greymist1

Sorry, but -- just as with the discussion of hit vs. crit -- this isn't good enough evidence. I frequently saw larger changes on Brutallus without any gear or playstyle changes. (Especially noticeable during learning attempts.) 200+ DPS swings were and are easily possible just based on random chance.

I don't always have WWS, but I do have Recap, and just going by what I saw when I'd scan through the stats, my performance was usually roughly correlated with my actual crit rate, which was all over the place. I've had kills where both sinister strike and autoattacks were a full 10 percentage points or more below my nominal raidbuffed crit chance. (Never got lucky enough to get that large a swing in the opposite direction, alas.)

At lower hit levels than I was running on Brutallus pre-patch (I was always very close to cap), hit variance might also play a big role. Another important source of variation is the damage range on your weapons.

Also, M'uru isn't the best boss encounter for DPS evaluation.

 

Andeh

Greymist, having "massive" crit deviations is actually quite common. It happens all the time to the Rogues I raid with, and can be quite frustrating for me to see someone with inferior gear to mine get nearly the same DPS simply because they RNG'd their way to a 54% crit rate while I sat at 42%.

 

CumpsD

Just wanted to add that the spell animations also "miss" you now, like Hunter arrows missing.

As before they would hit you for 0 damage and you would have a full resist.

 

Rambaral

actually, I was a bit off on my recollection, the mut dps was 500 more than my combat spec with my gear. Even on the same non-murderable boss. Just goes to show how useful using the spreadsheet is.