◊ chalon

If you have low Expertise, Envenom with 3s left on SnD will be okay in the majority of situations. But even with that 3s window you can have your cycle drop if you get a bad luck string and a couple finishers get dodged. There are also situations where you only have one shot at your Evenom and if it gets dodged it's frustrating. Not to mention something like Thaddius where if you spend a large portion of the fight with the same charge as your MT, you have to deal with Parries as well.

And yes, my thinking is that even though the spreadsheet said at my gear level it was a wash to regem for Expertise, I'm pretty sure there's an unquantifiable cycle optimization factor that the spreadsheet can't account for (it assumes 0 lag etc). So then it ends up actually being a non-trivial DPS gain.

 

Dev93L

Concerning the post(s) made a few pages back about the new maximum dps spec for Combat:

I reailze at EJ the emphasis is on the maximization of raid dps, but do we have any mathematical conjecture at this time (heck, even a guess) for how far sword/sword will lag behind fist/dagger at level 80? I read that the difference is not enough to overcome an item tier, so I was estimating around 5%? Maybe a little more?

I've been combat swords since 04-early 05, and just prefer the mechanics and aesthetics. 5% or so is tolerable to me, that's roughly 150 dps loss out of 3,000.

Also, I just want to thank Aldriana and the others a few pages back for making the post on fist/dagger; I dug out my Messenger of Fate and am currently fist/dagger.

 

Klyse

Greetings all... long time reader, first time poster!

I need a bit of info on the whole hit rating topic. I currently go into raids with about 300 hit rating. Is this now overkill? I've used the Roguecraft spreadsheet, and very strange things happen. If I swap one of my HIT gems with an AGI gem, my DPS goes down. But if I swap two hit gems with two AGI gems, my DPS goes back up slightly higher than my original DPS.

So... is there general feeling so far of what a 'reasonable target' is for hit rating now a days? I'm a combat build currently.

Thanks alot!

Klyse

 

saedo

My guess is socket bonus. And the 'general feeling' for the 'reasonable target' for hit is anything above zero. Hit isn't magical.

 

◊ chalon

The WotLK gemming guideline is basically for yellow sockets, socket orange. That can be either hit/agi, hit/ap, or hit/expertise depending on what your EP weights are. For red sockets, socket red (agi, ap, or expertise). For blue sockets, socket purple (sta/agi, sta/ap, and/or sta/expertise) if you need one to meet meta requirements, otherwise socket red.

 

Annihilus

I did a couple searches in here regarding my topic but didn't really find the answer so hopefully this isn't overly redundant.

I recently specc'd 51/5/5 and I have 4piece T6. I recentle did some testing on the dummies in IF to determine the actual difference between Shard and Ashtongue. Basically it worked out that the Shard was more Dps than the Ashtongue. That doesn't seem consistent with what I've read, so I'm assuming I'm doing something wrong. My cycle is garotte, snd, mutilate to 4 or 5 envenom, mutilate to4 or 5 rupture, refresh hunger for blood and repeat. So I'mnot sure about which trinket to use between shard and ashtongue. Also, hunger for blood sounds really good but I also did a test with and without it and my dos was relatively unchanged without it. I'm a little confused at this point and just looking for some clarification on my trinkets, cycle, and hunger for blood.

 

Makdoh

I am currently using both the shard of contempt and the ashtongue talisman.
what's your other trinket?

 

Annihilus

I use the DST as my other trinket but I have a WSC sitting in the bank as well.

 

Echophantom

Off the top of my head I'd guess it's the level difference between the dummies and bosses, but I could easily be wrong about that.

 

saedo

Raid buffs will also change how they rank.

Edit: And yea probably dummy levels. The "boss" one is a level 83. Otherwise you'd be using the level 70 ones, no 73s out there I believe.

 

Konorel

Try using Shard and AToL together over DST, you should see superior dps. Leave the WSC in your bank.

 

Annihilus

Good point. Although, I did have similar experiences with missed Envenom's jacking up my cycle.

I will try the ashtongue and shard instead. Good feedback! Any comment or suggestions about how I'm using my cycle or huger for blood?

 

Kmannkoopa

I find that I can get a steady and tight rotation in Assassination by doing the following -- I Cold Blood on cool down almost always.

Intro:
Hunger for Blood x3 while stealthed
Garrote (usually) Cheap Shot (rarely) - situationally dependent.
Slice and Dice
Mutilate -- total of 3-4 combo points
If 4 combo points/4 poisons Envenom otherwise Mutilate again then Envenom
[End Into]

Rotation (with Slice and Dice and Hunger for Blood x3 up):
2xMutilate -- will give 4-5 combo points
Rupture
2xMutilate
Wait for <5 seconds on Slice and Dice
Envenom
Repeat


Make sure to use Hunger for Blood when <3 seconds as well.

The reason I settle on 4 point abilities is that it just plain takes a while to generate the 60 energy required (and Ruthlessness often gets me 5 points anyway) and keeping up Slice and Dice and Hunger for Blood is all important. I also Envenom at <5 seconds because with Quick Recovery I can regain the energy to Envenom again before Slice and Dice wears out.

When you are super-efficient (especially with T4 bonus and Glyph) you can find your self repeating too fast, this is where I am not sure how to maximize DPS beyond this -- are more mutilates better or is an early Envenom the answer? Any insight?

[edited for more detail]

 

◊ chalon

While it may not be necessarily the case at 70, certainly once you get the Rupture Glyph that cycle simply won't work. Alternating Envenom/Rupture will clip your Rupture pretty consistently.

As I've said several times in the past few pages, there really isn't a prescribed cycle that will work. You need to just stick with the priorities and execute based on that. For instance, if you perform a finisher, proc Ruthlessness, and your Mutilate crits, you're at 4 CPs and certainly should not Mutilate again.

Reposting the priorities:
If at any point you hit 4 CPs, you should try to do a finisher soon and not another Mutilate.

 

Ena.the.rogue

What he's saying, perhaps a little harshly, is what's been true all along. All of the stats have value, and their relative value depends on a lot of different variables. In the end the only thing you care about is increasing your dps, not any of the particular stats. Pre 3.0 it was a good rule of thumb, at least after the nerf to haste, that pound for pound hit was a better stat than any other. Thus, the highest dps was best attained by choosing gear and gems that emphasized hit. Hit suffered from the capacity to cap out, so it was also generally indicated that increasing your hit rating above certain values caused its worth to drop. Those value were never really targets, rather lines that should be crossed cautiously.

With 3.0, some fundamental game mechanics have changed. Not a lot, but enough to dethrone hit as the king. These changes include but are not limited to: the change to the Windfury totem buff, and the addition of several talents that scale with crit. What this means is that you will generally not want to use hit gems any more and when comparing gear pieces, the points gained from other stats like agility and attack power will be higher compared to hit than they were. This does not mean that you need to make drastic changes to your current gear and gems, especially since we're only 2-3 weeks away from all level 70 EP values not really mattering any more.

More than once in this thread the relative weights have been estimated. I think it's something like this: Agi > Ap > hit below the poison cap > haste > crit > hit above the poison cap > armor pen. That might not be exactly right.

 

◊ Shaker

Actually it was the case before 3.0 and is the case afterwards. All of your DPS stats are currency for DPS - you'd be stupid to take 4 dimes over 9 nickles, even though dimes are generally better.

To reinforce the point - while we have general stat weightings, they often change, and anyone who looks at an item and goes "no <insert current favorite stat here>, it must suck" without actually trying to understand whether or not the item is actually any good is doing themselves and their raid group a disservice.

It's really fascinating, as this knowledge is ever-present in our minds on some items - say, trinkets - yet completely absent on some people regarding say .. belts.

I mean, who looks at [Dragonspine Trophy] vs [Romulo's Poison Vial] and says "Well, the vial has +hit on it ..."

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

Uzol

I've been following this thread for some time, and I don't remember a clear, empirical clarification on Turn the Tables:

The obvious question being, does it apply to finishers, combo builders, or both? The wording seems very misleading. Thanks in advance if someone can answer and sorry if its been discussed elsewhere in this threads enormity.

 

Konorel

Combo moves are those moves that generate combo points and are neither openers nor finishers.

 

drumbum

Openers are combo moves.

 

Konorel

While openers may give a combo point they are not considered 'combo moves' for the purposes of talents such as TtT.

 

Bensin

Source, wowhead. I have also done some testing and it appears that combo moves is strictly limited to those moves which generate combo points, but are neither openers or finishers.

On another topic, I recently noticed that the subject of the Mutliate Spec was back up, and had a few questions about the specs presented. The only spec that I have seen being talked about is 51/5/5, and haveing taken a link to look at that spec, I noticed that the talent points in Opporunity were missed for a 5/5 Relentless Strikes. I was curious as to how, even with the somewhat odd generation of combo points and the 4/5 CP finishers at time, Oppportunity is not a better DPS increase overall.

 

Konorel

People who take 5/5 RS typically do so to help even out their cycles in terms of energy consumption/regeneration. Overall, at 70, 3/5 RS with 2/2 Opportunity should provide more dps.

Edit: Spelling error.

 

Rectafire

On my spreadsheet I gain 7 DPS with 3/5 RS and 2/2 Opportunity rather than 5/5 RS. A small DPS increase, but an increase none the less.

 

Leto

The spreadsheet doesn't accurately model the benefit of 5/5 rs, since it doesn't adjust your cycles, it just lets snd fall if there isn't 100% uptime with the current cycle, etc.

Rogue at heart.

 

Rectafire

Thanks, makes sense taking a look at the spread sheet.

I read that previously but my head has been full with new Mutilate and Combat mechanics, etc.