• Aldriana

Conventional wisdom holds that shiving is about the last thing you want to do - it's a woefully inefficient move in the damage-per-energy metric, particularly with a dagger. While the theorycraft on this may shift somewhat based on the new talents and finishers, I will be very surprised if it is found to be at all competitive - I'm fairly confident that just doing a 4-point finisher instead is going to result in markedly higher DPS.

 

Miganto

Hi there, i have been levelling a rogue, and have levelled a warrior too, and i had a question about the hit rating mechanics of them.

From what i've read, warriors are meant to hit cap to 9% or so, the 'soft cap', i've heard it called. Mostly to stop their specials missing.

On the other hand, rogues are 'meant' to try to get as much hit as they can (at least, a 'lot' more than 9%).

The thing i was wondering is...on my rogue, i think more of my hits are specials (ss spam) than with my warrior (find it hard to find enough specials to use that arent on cooldown)

This is all for fury warriors btw, as an arms, i see that specials are used more.

Wondering more about the 'whys' than the actual numbers needed. If there's a place i should look instead of here, let me know and i'll delete the post and check it out!

If anyone could clear this up for me, i'd be appreciative =)

Thanks!

 

• Aldriana

First off, it's never really been true that rogues want "as much hit as they can get", or even that they want "a lot more than 9%". What has been true is that hit is relatively more valuable for rogues than it is for for warriors, such that our optimal gear at all levels tends to have more hit on it. So, a couple of points about that.

1) The high rogue dependence on hit is vastly diminished with the advent of patch 3.0. A number of the factors that were driving up the value of hit are gone, so I think the value of hit for rogues and the value of hit for warriors are probably much closer than they had been until recently.

2) I don't claim to be an expert on warrior mechanics, but I think a significant part of it is that in a raid situation, warriors convert a significant portion of their MH attacks to Heroic Strikes, which uses the yellow miss rate (of 9%). Hence, while rogues have 65% of their damage from white attacks (that thus benefits from hit past 9%), the number for warriors is down around 35%, which clearly lowers of the value of hit for warriors relative to rogues.

3) The main drivers between the value of rogue hit in 3.0.x are the need to push towards the spell hit cap to gain bonus damage from Poison procs, which introduces a quadratic dependence of damage upon hit (which drives up the value of the stat significantly), and Combat Potency, which gives us a boost to yellow damage above and beyond it's implications to white damage; while warriors have a similar feedback mechanism in rage, it benefits from other stats (notably crit) instead of primarily from hit (and haste).

 

Unseen

Sounds like your taking out one of your 2 blue gems so that your metagem no longer is functional.

 

Splot

Just to save people going and looking it up else where spell hit cap is currently approximately 215 (17*12.6) at 70 as compared to yellow damage hit cap of approximately 114. The yellow damage hit cap can be brought down by precision.

 

drumbum

-MOD EDIT-

The information in this post is outdated. Please refer to this thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/

-MOD EDIT-


On that note, and with WOTLK rapidly approaching, people might be interested in seeing the various hit caps at level 80 summarized:

Hit rating caps at level 80 with 0/5 Precision

Mob level	Specials	White	Poisons
80	164	787	105
81	181	804	132
82	197	820	158
83+	296	919	446

Hit rating caps at level 80 with 5/5 Precision

Mob level	Specials	White	Poisons
80	0	623	0
81	17	640	0
82	33	656	27
83+	132	755	315

Hit rating caps at level 80 with 5/5 Precision and either Improved Faerie Fire or Misery on your target

Mob level	Specials	White	Poisons
80	0	623	0
81	17	640	0
82	33	656	0
83+	132	755	237

Hit rating caps at level 80 with 5/5 Precision, a Draenei in your party (and within 30 yards), and either Improved Faerie Fire or Misery on your target

Mob level	Specials	White	Poisons
80	0	591	0
81	0	607	0
82	0	623	0
83+	99	722	210

 

Hupepak

hello, Im wondering if Muramasa is actually better than s4 sword or the other way around? The spreadsheets from before the patch and after give different results.

 

◊ chalon

I wonder why the results would differ between pre and post patch spreadsheets...

In all seriousness though, it will vary on a variety of things, which is why the spreadsheets exist.

 

Kumar

I don't know the stats of the swords, but the Patch has caused Hit to diminish in value while Agility has increased in value. That itself would be a good reason for different results.

 

• Aldriana

I think you missed the sarcasm in Chalon's post. Many mechanics changed, so it's not even remotely surprising that the old spreadsheets give different answers than the new spreadsheets. It's because the old spreadsheets are obsolete, and the new ones aren't. Hence, you should trust the ones that have been updated to 3.0 rather than the 2.x ones.

 

Shivawn

Has there been a true conclusion on the current and future (level 80) AEP values of items? Will that not be decided until level 80 has been reached and full, widespread testing has been done?

I've seen a small flow of what stats ARE more valued (namely AGL and AP) currently, however, numbers haven't been really applied to them yet. Since hit has become deflated heavily, and I look like a bit of a moron with lots of hit gems sparking in my armor, I'm wondering if I should change my current gemming, or just wait until I hit 80 and regem my level 80 gem to be more fitting of a level 80 rogue setup.

 

• Aldriana

There have been some specific numbers posted for both combat and mutilate earlier in the thread; I imagine if you poke around you can find them. However, the real answer is that there is not a high degree of confidence in existing models; Vulajin's sheet has some known issues, and no one else has a full working model yet. As such, what EP values have been posted should be taken as estimates rather than canon until such time as we get one (and preferably 2 or 3) models with no major known issues, such that we can compare between them and get EP values with a higher degree of confidence. The current level of uncertainty is one of the major reasons EP have currently been stated more as rules of thumb than as exact values - because we don't actually to know what the real numbers are with any precision.

 

jorysaywut

So I've been reading this thread pretty consistently and have seen multiple posts stating that the value of ArPen has gone down. I've tried to use the search function to find a post actually explaining why and have come up empty. Did they basically decrease the amount of actual ArPen with an expensive conversion rate? Or was it more to do with changes to rogues overall in the 3.0 patch?

 

Analogkid

I won't be surprised to see ArPen come back up in value with the new boss increases.

Conform or be cast out...

 

sp00n

According to the Roguecraft sheet ArPen isn't so bad overall just right now.

For my gear and buffs, it is only a little bit behind AP and already better than haste and crit.
Of course this is all subject to your gear, buffs, how accurate the sheet is and how accurate my modification to the sheet is.

AEP
2 Strength	0.98
2 Agility	2.00
2 AP	0.90
2 Hit	1.84
2 Crit	1.73
2 Exp	2.08
2 Haste	1.73
2 ArPen	1.78

EP
1 Strength	1.09
1 Agility	2.23
2 AP	2.00
1 Hit	2.05
1 Crit	1.93
1 Exp	2.32
1 Haste	1.92
1 ArPen	1.98

 

tetracycloide

Some of both. Changing ArPen to a raiting made it less effective against low armor targets and removed ArPen scaling with itself. Previously the closer a player got to reducing a target's armor to 0 the more valuable each addition point in ArPen become. Now ArPen removes a percentage of the remaining armor, so each point is worth the same as the one before it and the stat has equal value no matter what amount of armor the target has. The new stat also applies as a percentage reduction on the targets current armor instead of max armor, so -armor debuffs like sunder armor and expose armor actually reduce ArPen's effectiveness.

My vanity is justified.

 

Shivawn

From my understanding, Hit does not have that much weight anymore, not even close. Unless I'm reading the table values in reverse...

 

zabuza6

From my experimentation, I've seen a ~100-150+ dps *gain* over combat swords from going to Sub/Hat as 11/6/44 (Ruthlessness over blood spatter, and 1 pt in imp slice n' dice).

The damage per energy argument that eviscerate sucks compared to rupture is flawed, the real comparison is the dpe comparison between Eviscerate and Sinister Strike. I'm currently running at a 60% crit rate on Eviscerate with the glyph, and with Improved Eviscerate 3/3, that is giving my Eviscerates an average of *4000* damage(see wws below). So you can see the issue isn't the dpe of eviscerate, it obviously beats sinister strike, the issue is how often you actually get to spam eviscerate in ideal circumstances (4k dmg / 10 energy), and how much do you give up by not getting other combat talents. Prey on the weak is a quite amazing white damage talent.

The real problem with the spec is that you get plenty of combo points to spam eviscerate on average, but there are definitely dry spells, and knowing what to do then makes a big difference. A 3 pt eviscerate still beats out a hemo in dpe, which is probably a mistake people make when trying this spec, and also I think ruthlessness is a big gain when trying to lessen the number of combo point "dry spells" you encounter.

Here's a wws from before I really took my own advice from the previous paragraph, but I broke even with an equivalently geared combat sword rogue who has a MH glaive, a guy I was falling behind 50-100dps as combat swords. I did much better last night in BT, but we haven't gotten the WWS for it up yet.

The biggest problem I see with this spec is the scaling with gear. Eviscerate doesn't scale with weapons, and scales worse than sinister strike or rupture from stats as well. It will probably be quite strong early on in the 80s, but how it does after that is highly dependent on where the damage of eviscerate falls then compared to sinister strike. The other problem is that it is severly crappy without a full group of melee/hunters to give you combo points. In that same WWS I was hurt on Kalecgos because of the way we split up groups, but that's the only 25-man boss where that has been a problem.

Gearing/gemming specifically for this spec could help some too. Agi is king for combat as well, but the difference between agi and hit/haste isn't nearly as big as it would be for this spec, I would imagine. Also, whatever expertise you can get is *very* important. 10 energy for 4k damage vs 35 energy for a dodged eviscerate sucks.

 

ieatpaperbag

I think it's worth noting that it any given raid will at least have a shadow priest that brings misery or a moonkin specced into improved faerie fire which will reduce the hit needed for poisons by another 3% making the cap 237 with 5points in precision

 

◊ chalon

1. I'm guessing this is for Combat Swords?
2. 70 or 80?
3. Hit being valued a little more than AP seems a little odd, but maybe that's the case at certain gear levels?
4. ArP being valued slightly more than Crit also seems a little weird.

 

Ashere

Sub/HaT seems to be the only spec that really relies on group setup nowadays, with the majority of raidbuffs having been improved to have a raid-wide effect.

In case you want to try out sub/HaT, here's a little list of preferred group members
1) fury/arms warriors
2) hunters
3) mages
4) holy palies
5) Enh Shammies
6) Oomkins
7) Rogues

Pretty odd, but rogues aren't exactly at the top of the wishlist here, the amount of critting abilities per second for rogues doesn't seem to be as good as those on warriors, hunters or mages.
Holy Paladins are awesome to have in your group, but raidleaders generally prefer to place those in the tank group, which means there's a groupslot taken by someone with a slightly lower amount of crits per second.

You definitely don't want to be in a group with DoT classes, like warlocks and shadowpriests, or for that matter, HoT healers, like druids or holy priests. You'll be spending a lot more energy on generating combopoints yourself, while you'd want to use your hemo only about once every cycle.

As you can read between the lines in zabuza6's post, and most others as well: you're basically replacing most of your combo moves with finishers in this spec. We will see how things hold up in lvl 80 end-game after a content patch or two, but so far, the mechanics seem to work well.

 

Demi9OD

How do pets factor in to HaT? Same 1s cooldown as their master Hunter? Or not considered at all?

 

sp00n

Yes, that's for level 70 combat swords (that's what I've meant with 'just right now').

That's what the Roguecraft sheet is telling me. Of course it isn't really designed for AEP/EP values, so I configured my modification to add 20 stat points of each and then divide by 20 resp. 10 to to balance out rounding errors so that I'd have at least an approximation.
Gear level is double Warglaives (finally! After only 11 months!) and all Sunwell items except chest, trinket and cloak.

 

Ashere

As far as I know, the damage pets deal comes (mostly) from their auto-attacks, not special attacks, so they wouldn't count towards HaT anyway.
But on top of that, I'm actually not sure if they classify as partymembers at all. A hunter can probably answer this, it's just a matter of knowing whether old group buffs applied to pets or not. If they did, then pets counted as party members, and probably still do.

 

Ena.the.rogue

Good call on the Rogues. I wondered what was wrong yesterday. Being grouped with 1 warrior and 3 rogues explains it.

I think it's worth noting that you are also in your party and as such whenever you crit with your Hemo or Backstab, you will get an additional combo point as though you had Seal Fate. Oddly, I've never had a finishing move's crit add an extra combo point although it would make sense given the wording on HaT. I wonder if that's a bug, working as intended, or I'm just missing them?

Your WWS is a little confusing. For Brutallus, it shows 55 counts of Relentless Strikes, but only 2 for Exploit Weakness. How is that possible? With Sub/HaT I find that Exploit Weakness never drops.

Dew. Be. Dew. Be. Dew.