Vodrin

You try to hide the fact you almost got cleaved run around to the back and use your cold blood on a mutilate or finisher. Then learn not to take cleaves and take a better dps talent :<.

85% - parry/dodge% of the time you are going to die or come close to dieing so i can never see it being a viable mechanic in raids.

 

Ignus

Unless I'm wrong, Prey on the weak should really be quite good. since it's a percent based difference, the mob is at less than 100% the second you start DPSing him, and thereafter you should only lose the buff when you take damage, with it being re-applied as soon as you receive healing.

25% bigger white damage crits seems pretty freakin huge.

 

VeeV's

Well my point was that if you happen to be lucky and proc TtT, Cold Blood will crit it as it will count as an offensive ability as you do damage. (and no it will never be viable I agree)

 

Kanfastblade

Well assuming he gets cheat death it could be tried with greater chance of survival, doubtful the cold blood will do anything to the cleave though, a return from TtT it is probably not considered an attack you can crit on. And of course a build with Turn the Tables and Cheat Death is good just for this gimmik, not actual raid DPS.

 

Ashere

Yup, I suspect an uptime of this buff about 75-80% of the time, though depending a lot on the boss. A boss that AOE's all the time will result in a lower uptime, while a tank & spank boss without one would result in a much higher uptime.

 

drumbum

Reflecting an attack can only be considered a defensive ability, even if it deals damage. I imagine it will show a "Reflect" message, very similar to reflected spells currently.

After all, Thorns does not consume Cold Blood.

 

Arindelest

Not really. Sure it's a decent boost while up (Aldriana I believe estimated it at 4-5% earlier in the thread), but even with 100% uptime that's only a 80-100 DPS boost at 5/5 if you're doing 2000 DPS. Now assume 75% uptime, and that drops to 60-75 DPS, or a meager 12-15 DPS boost per point. Not really incredibly spectacular for a 45-point talent.

 

tetracycloide

The mechanics of Prey on the Weak may cause Stay of Execution to be a resonably good filler talent to take if only to increase the percentage of time you are considered at more health than your target. Assuming of course that the 'considered at full health' portion of stay actually triggers prey. It's certainly better than the other combat filler options, assuming you're not mixing weapon specs.

My vanity is justified.

 

Derby

The wording of Turn the Tables leads me to believe it wouldn't trigger off of regular damage. Physical "effects" brings to mind things like Deep Wound, Rupture, Hamstring, Wing Clip, things of that nature. If it was going to trigger off of damage, I would expect the verbiage to be more broad. Damage isn't something I would intuitively consider an "effect", per se.

I would like to know if this ability has been proven to trigger off of simple damage, or if we are just speculating on its effect, because I find the wording to be a little nebulous.

EDIT: Removed the quote, since apparently it didn't match my comment in any way.

 

Headspace Cools

Does anyone know of a good resource for discussing the benefits of leather +Haste gear for rogues?

My rogue is freshly 70 and I'm wondering if I should focus on traditional gear/stats or try something a bit different and go with pure haste gear.

 

Cally

You'll find that there isn't too much haste gear for a fresh 70 rogue so I would probably just go with traditional gear. Both rogue DPS spreadsheets as linked on the Rogue PVE DPS TTT article model haste but you'll find that there isn't a special number for anything unless you're going over the cap (ie. hit/expertise rating). Just go with your most readily available gear that gives you the most dps as specified by the spreadsheets.

 

• Aldriana

Prey on the Weak isn't a *bad* talent - I mean, it will give a boost to DPS - the problem is that the new combat talents don't have any actually good talents from a PvE perspective. And while I'm fine with having some assorted PvP filler in high -end combat, I do think it's important to have enough damage talents in high-end combat that someone might actually think about taking it, which I don't think is the case right now. I haven't run the exact numbers, but it would surprise me if 20/51/0 comes out ahead of 11/39/21 right now.

So, that said: it's not that I think Prey on the Weak needs to be changed, necessarily - but as has been discussed, it's a weak 45-pt talent, and the 40+ talents need something to make you consider deep combat, so it seemed like a natural one to replace with something actually good.

It might also be noted that those ideas were the result of me just sitting down for half an hour and typing out random ideas. I don't claim that all of them are good. I think some of them are, and even if the exact replacements I propose don't work, I do think they accurately identify some of the problems with the current incarnation of our talent trees.

 

PSGarak

It's highly unlikely that you will be able to reflect a multi-target attack, especially the second bounce of one. You're more likely to get returns on the talent trying to reflect Hateful Strikes from Gruul.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

tetracycloide

I think it's highly unlikely that the reflect will ever be worth it as a DPS talent reguardless of fight mechanics.

The real question is, is it worth it as a dodge tank? Since most of the doge tanking talents are in subtelty and combat the answer is probably no, however, if it is possible to dodge cap vs. a physical boss without them and still reflect attacks then it could be a very significant TPS boost.

Other than that and PvP there really isn't much room for application of the talent.

My vanity is justified.

 

• Aldriana

Unless I quite miss my guess, Blizzard is almost certainly going to reduce the viability of dodge tanking. Like, it's a cool gimmick that has become possible with the gradual gear creep of this expansion, but I strongly suspect that even if they don't specifically nerf if it to render it impossible, it probably will take a while before the gear to pull it off exists. In either event, I can't see Blizzard designing talents around rogue tanking specs.

 

swelt

What I don't like about Prey on the Weak is that it's a Crit based talent at the top of a Hit based tree. The synergies in the assassination are obvious and appealing. The deep end of combat just seems confused.

 

Dky

Someone mentioned haste gear and I've come across an opinion (from several sources), that if you consider haste from a certain standpoint, 1 point of haste = 1 point of hit, i.e. it basicly increases the number of hits in a given timeframe, becouse the hit and haste procentage converts at the same rate, around 15.77rating per procent?

 

• Aldriana

Yes... and no. Haste and Hit are similar in that they convert at the same rate and both give more white attacks, but that's about as far as the similarities go. There's a lot of subtleties that are omitted by that characterization. For instance: Hit increases the uptime of PPM procs such as Mongoose and Executioner; Haste does not. Hit applies twice to WF and Sword Spec procs (once to see if the initial attack hits and can trigger a proc, once to see if the proc hits), while Haste only applies once. Hit applies additively to Crit and Expertise; Haste applies multiplicatively. Thus, when you work out all the subtleties, one finds that, despite their similarities, the actual effect on DPS can be fairly significantly difference, and in particular, for a combat rogue Hit can be worth up to 25% more than Haste.

 

Previn

Actually, I could easily see it (depending on the exact mechanics) being ideal for rogue tanking in something like a 38/33/0 build. The only things in Sub that one could really call tanking talents are Sinister Calling and Cheat Death. This would basically swap those out for Turn the Tables and Deaden Nerves while also picking up most of the Combat talents that matter for DPS.

Given a high end of around say 800 agility, Sinister Calling is going to give (with Blessing of Kings) around 10% evasion. It could in the long run actually make rogue tanking easier by reducing the extra buffs needed to hit the final avoidance cap.

If Blizzard doesn't hit the dodge rating and agility to dodge for rogue too hard, I could see this talent alone making rogue tanks viable.

 

Dorvan

I think it's fairly safe to say that Blizzard does not intend for rogue tanking to be viable beyond the duration of evasion, and if mechanics indicate that this is viable, it will be nerfed. It also doesn't make any sense to take Turn the Tables or Deaden Nerves in a Rogue tanking set up....the whole point is that you can't survive the physical hits so you rely on never getting hit at all.

 

Previn

Ghostly Strike? Improved Parry, Lightning Reflexes? Who is to say Blizzard doesn't want rogues tanking? heck, we've already seen rogue tanking Gruul, and bosses in BT and Kara.

And if Turn the Tables works against physical attacks, it's clearly fantastic for a rogue tank to take. You would need over 1100 agility along with Sinister calling and Blessing of kings to match it, and that's assuming the ratio stays the same instead of scaling back as we level up.

 

• Vulajin

There is a world of difference between survivability talents and tanking talents. Shamans have shield specialization but I'm pretty sure they're not "intended by Blizzard" to tank in any sense.

 

• Maestroquark

Because a capable rogue tank is not something that can possibly be built up while actually tanking? It's all or nothing. Either you have enough (complete) avoidance, or you don't. Survivability in a tree is not just for tanking - it's for soloing, PvP, and sometimes just plain variety.

A bunch of discussion is happening over new talents. What about how old talents are affected in the new world? Hit Rating and Spell Hit Rating for are going to be combined, which means poisons are going to be resisted much less often. With this in consideration, why is Blizzard not changing the core functionality of Master Poisoner? Don't get me wrong - I'd rather have the coming duration reduction compared to a chance of all or none. Of course, that's not exactly a seller for a talent by itself. An almost valueless talent now has even less value.

 

Previn

True, but with the need for tanks, and the work the rogues have put into doing it, maybe they're kicking the idea around. Clearly there is a need for tanks, and I think it's been pretty well shown that the concept can be done now. It would take little more than a nod from blizzard at this point to make it "official/intended" into WotLK.

Of course this is all speculation until we know the exact meaning of "physical ability." But saying that rogues will never tank, or that Blizzard can't decide that rogue can be intended to tank? That seems short sited to me.

Well, for the raids, it's all or nothing (not entirely true in Kara, and I've off tanked in ZA without full avoidance), for the 5 man dungeons and questing, it's a lot less all or nothing.

But consider: 5% base miss, 5% dodge, +5% dodge from Lightning Reflexes, 5% parry +5% parry from Improved Parry, +2% base rogue dodge, +15% avoidance from Turn the Tables = ~40% total avoidance before any gear or buffs. Add in Scorpid Sting for +5%, a Grace of Air for ~5% and you're at 50%, still before any gear. I can hit over 50% avoidance in my current DPS gear without even needing to look for a tanking set.

 

Dorvan

Blizzard's answer to the tank shortage is Death Knights + more DPS for tanks. I defy you to show me any indication that Blizzard is interested in rogue tanking as an intended mechanic....Sunwell Radiance seems pretty straight-forward evidence otherwise. Your Turning the Tables comment makes more sense now that it appears you're assuming it's added to the single roll table. I was assuming that it's a "proc on mob hit" effect, though that can be cleared up pretty quickly one way or another with testing. Regardless, I wouldn't get your hopes up about rogue tanking outside of another Razuvious-like encounter.