Demi9OD

There will be a glyph, it just may not be useful for PVE. Similar to the backstab glyph.

 

tetracycloide

Or it may be useful for PvE without being DPS addative. If there are any mobs in raids immune to poisons and the glyph allows mutilate to treat all mobs as if they were poisoned it would certainly be a clear winner for most rogues over any of the alternatives after SnD and Rupture.

My vanity is justified.

 

Ena.the.rogue

Some DoTs from SPriests and Warlocks can now crit on independent ticks. It's possible these tick-crits can proc HaT.

Yesterday, being grouped with a warrior, hunter, enhance shaman, and mage definitely worked better than being grouped with mostly rogues. Tonight I'll see if I can get in a group with an SPriest and/or a Warlock specced for DoT crits to see if it's really so bad.

I'm still curious as to why my own env/evis crits don't proc HaT.

I'm also curious if Blizz plans to give us a way to allow our DoTs to be able to tick-crit. I've just assumed they won't, but it would be cool if there was a talent or glyph that made DP or Rupture occasionally tick-crit.

EDIT: rewording to not misinform

Dew. Be. Dew. Be. Dew.

 

Tinwhisker

On the outside it may seem unfair if our own DoTs don't crit, but the whole point of DoT crit'ing is to bring usefulness to all the crit now on gear that DoT dependent classes must use as well as bump up the lagging DPS that some casting classes are currently victim to.

If DP never crits we still get poison crit benefit to IP/WP. I also get the feeling that causing what are essentially our debuff poisons to start crit'ing may be imbalanced.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

pdpi

I can't recall any changes on HoT crits, but shadow priests and warlocks have crits on their channeled spells (mind flay and drain life respectively) baseline, much like arcane missiles, and both have talents to increase proper dot damage through crit: shadow form gives x% more damage to dots where x is crit chance, and affliction has a talent that has x% chance to proc on some dots dealing damage that procs for double damage instead. Neither is a true "DoT crit". If/when all dots actually crit, I assume they'll be re-balanced around it and rogue dots will be included. Until then, these talents are a quick and dirty hack to fix spriest and affliction lock scaling with the whole set of caster stats, and it's not really unfair that nobody else is covered. In fact, I'd say that, since those two are the DoT specs, their dots should inherently have some advantages over everybody else's, just for characterfulness (scaling/balance being maintained).

 

Isin

This is an oversimplification bordering on trolling.

Warlocks need to spec 9 tiers into affliction to allow their dots to tick-crit and it only affects half of their DoTs. Shadowpriest's similarly get their tick critting tied to their Shadowform talent.

There is no mechanic by which a priest's HoTs crit right now.

Please don't call something "unbalanced/unfair" when you clearly have no idea how it works.

 

Ashere

I'll have to get myself a better battle tracker than Recount to make sure, but while solo-ing, I'm pretty sure I do get CP from my critting Eviscerates at least. On an evisc crit, I do get the familiar sound, and I do start out my next cycle with 1 CP. But, I don't have Ruthlessness, it might be possible that these two just don't go together because Ruthlessness sets a hard value to the amount of CP's, or the two are mutually exclusive. It could very well be a programming flaw, like "if (Ruthlessness){CP=1;}" instead of "if (Ruthlessness){CP+=1;}" or "if (Ruthlessness){CP++;}".

 

Gryzemuis

I did my first raid tonight, after 3.0.2.
Before 3.0.2 my colleague rogue and me both did 2k dps on Brutallus. We had killed Brutallus only once, so our gear is up to T6 bracers level. We both have S3 swords, 4xT6, but no Cursed Vision or glaives.

Last week, after the patch, my colleague did 2.5k dps on Brutallus, while being combat specced. No scrolls or DS elixir. Tonight we were both HAT specced, by coincidence. And not even optimally specced (I did not have Blood Spatter). We both did 3k dps on Brutallus. I missed most addons, so I didn't even keep a good eye on s&d or rupture uptimes. I just spammed eviscerate.

Combopoints accumulate so quickly, you have almost no time to react to anything. You just spam eviscerate. Sometimes you notice no combopoints during 1-2 seconds. Then you could do hemo, but you want to make sure you keep 35 energy for your finishers. But as soon as the fight gets started, and people start rolling, the combopoints keep coming in. No time or need to use hemo. I don't even know if I get combopoints from crits by partymembers only, or also raidmembers (I think party only). My party consisted of 2 rogues, prot warrior, ret paladin and a rotating member (often a resto shaman). Only when the ret paladin died during Felmyst tries, it seemed noticeable that combopoint generation was slower.

Good luck trying to model this in a spreadsheet. I'm sure it can be done. Good work has been done on comparison of different cycles in TBC. Thanks.

WLK is gonna be different. Cycles ? Lolz. Kekkek. Just stand there in your pvp spec, with HAT, and spam eviscerate till your fingers bleed. Have fun ! Bye.

 

Arindelest

It seems pretty clear that you won't just be spamming Eviscerate, since there were plenty of times when I could fit in a Hemo(s) while still building combo points. I wonder how much time you'd have to waste (i.e. time on GCD with 5 CPs) for it to be no longer worth it to try and fit in another Hemo (that is to say, you use Hemo when you have <5 combo points, but while you're on GCD you gain your 5th, and therefore cannot use eviscerate for n seconds, where n <= 1). Assuming you have unlimited energy of course, which tends to be pretty much the case. It requires quite a different mindset than Combat or Assassination to play, to be sure though, because capping out on energy is no longer necessarily bad since it's quite difficult to ever use all of your energy anyways.

 

MasterDinadan

As I said, it depends on the raid wide crit rate. Crit rates are going to be LOWER at level 80, not higher. In sunwell, everyone in your raid is wearing some of the best gear and enchants available at that level. It is the absolute best that you can do with HaT. At level 80, you won't be able to achieve the same level of combo point generation until your raid has the best level 80 gear (which won't even be available for a few more patches).
Under these situations, you'll get fewer combo points from HaT and have to rely on hemo/BS more. Subtlety will probably start off really weak, but scale extremely well with the raid stats because your DPS goes up with your gear AND your combo point generation goes up with your allies' gear.

 

Teip

I have been trying to search and read through all of this thread but I can't seem to come up with any good answer.

I am looking for both a good raiding spec and a leveling spec come expansion time.

my gear is 5/8 T6 and the rest is here Teip

I have 2 Messenger of Fate as alternate weapons but I don't know what would be viable. Yes that is an S2 sword as mainhand lol.

I have at least 1 more raid day before expansion and have been doing swords for it but wonder if mutilate would be better for leveling.

Sorry if I missed the threads on this.

 

guljiny

For raiding you would do more dps if you got the MH badge fist (same sword OH) and specced 5/5 close quarters combat and 4/5 Sword spec.

Also get the shard of contempt to replace romulo's
Get the badge crossbow
Regem for agility (this will also be better for leveling). Just maintain the poison hit cap

For leveling its much more down to personal preference. I am personally going for something like this In general I run straight into a mob, SS once, pop S&D then SS until its dead, using the other cooldowns as often as possible. This build is good for those that go from mob to mob very fast (Instant cast broom on Sunday please) and also has lots of utility ( BF, AR, KSpree, 2min sprint and evasion, riposite) Mutilate has the advantage of higher movement speed and greater burst but for me lacks utility for soloing group quests/elites etc.

 

François

I think you are wrong on Holy priests. Circle of Healing provides a lot of critical effects, even with low crit rate on gear.

 

Teip

Yeah I am working on badges now but I have always been a dagger user so I was sad when they messed up combat daggers. Would using the 2 1.4 speed daggers be super bad dps though? From what I have read there is a lot of talk about faster weapons meaning higher dps, not sure if that has changed though.

 

MasterDinadan

HaT refers to anyone in your GROUP which means raid or party, as far as I know. I could be wrong. Anyone know for sure whether HaT counts the entire raid or just your party? If it meant party, I would think that it would say party.

At any rate, the only party-specific effects that I am aware of at this point in time is the feral druid Leader of the Pack, and the priest spell Hymn of Hope. Just put mana users with your priests, and DPSers with your feral druids.

 

Milano

Did some tests of Honor Among Thieves. What I can see is that it does not proc off any casted damage or healing spells at all. Grouped with frost mage, holy paladin and another rogue. The only procs I got were from physical abilities from the rogue. This doesn't seem intented according to the tooltip of the talent?

The most optimal group then without any questions is other melee and perhaps hunters. Did not test ranged physical abilities, but I'm guessing they're in the same league as melee ones as my own Deadly Thrown can proc it.

I can only assume that this talent is bugged. Suddely a lot weaker in 10 man raids and PvP.

Last observation is that it does not proc across raidgroups. So it'll have to rely on having other melees in your group, which isn't any problem to fix in 25 man raids. So that part of the tooltip is correct at least.

 

Drow

HaT only profits from your group and if their styles are critting.

 

swelt

Has anyone considered HAT in a group with a warrior tank? With talents like Incite, Critical Block and Sword and Board all increasing style crit chances by 15%, and with tanks constantly using styles both on and off the GCD, they might be quite a good source of combo points. That assumes that a crit heroic strike would qualify, not just the instants like shield slam or devastate.

 

Harrygoz

Leader of the Pack (along with moonkin/ToL aura) is raid wide

 

saedo

I believe the only group only effects are mana/health totems, drums, some hunter pet CDs (Call of the Wild), VE, hymn of hope.

So spread out the shamans, shadow priests, (bm?) hunters, and leatherworkers.

 

Diamond-EU-KT-Rogue-Fhtag

Hi,

I would like to share my feedback as a T5 Geared Rogue: The World of Warcraft Armory
I played Combat sword for one week: WWS Loading...
And the week after I played subtlety: Wow Web Stats
I did not change my stuff except the glyph of sinister strike for the glyph of evisceration. For my sub spec I was with a hunt and retribution paladin a shaman and a war arms.

I took The Akama,Teron and Reliquary fights to make my comparison because it's where I played at my best. I died on Gurtogg as combat spec.

the results I've found while playing subtlety is a DPS loss of 5-20% depending on fights. We might argue about the exact dps loss but it's impossible because:
- The encounters, I recorded as subtlety spec lasted 20 less sec than when I was combat.
- I made only one try in each spec wich is not really accurate : for example my crit rating on Teron as sub spec is 36% where I should be around 50% looking at my char stats.
There is one thing for sure: sub is a dps loss to me.

Another thing is that sub is really interesting to play, your cycle isn't defined by the combo point you have but by your Energy left:
- Combo point generation isn't stable, but you need to make the maximum of 5cp finisher because of the energy regen (Which is strong: 775 against 885 as combat spec on Teron fight). Which mean sometimes; you will need to wait for the 5 cpts.
Here comes your energy management: you don’t want to loose energy due to capping your 100 Energy bar, the hemo/backstack is useful here. Another point is that you don’t want to have 0 energy and 5 combo points and wait 3,5 Sec before landing an eviscerate , this would result in a lot of combos points loss in this spec (14 points max). I think the good way to play this spec, Is to have your energy bar varying from 35 to 95 energy while landing a maximum of 5pts Finisher.

Despite being fun to play, sub is not as competitive as I first thought. Furthermore Evi don't scale well with your gear and I dont think sub will be a good alternative in the beginning of WOLTK lvl 80 raid. But for those times, where bosses are horribly nerfed and the spec is ok, you may have a try because it's a pretty different style of play than mutilate or combat.

Thank you for reading and sorry for my bad English, it's not my native tongue, and I wish this post may have helped in any way.

 

Drow

The Sub/Hat rogues strength and weakness comes with the group. The more stylecritters you have the better. If you loose up to 20% dps to the other rogues than either the other outgeared you or you had a bad style rotation.

 

François

When theorycrafting Sub (HaT) dps, my understanding is that Evi replaces combo moves, and in my memory, Evi scales with 30% of AP, when Sinister Strike now scales with 10% (AP/14 x 1.15x1.1x1.1 in Combat). 5 combo Evi costs 10 Energy, SS costs 40. So my impression is that HaT scales very well with gear, even if Evi is used once SnD and Rupture are done.

What have I missed ?

 

Demi9OD

You missed *2.4 for weapon speed on SS.

 

tetracycloide

Obviously finishers scale better than CP generators, if they didn't rogues would just spam SS/Hemo/Mutilate/Backstab and never use one. The question is how the builds vary for white and poison damage and if the CP generation from HaT is high enough to turn finishers into spamables.

Edit - Also, the above formula appears to be missing the scaling from weapon damage itself.

My vanity is justified.