• Aldriana

That doesn't actually follow. For instance, in TBC, Rupture damage scaled worse than SS damage, which is why at high gear levels you could reach a crossover point where 5s5r overtook the damage output of the compressed cycle. Finishers tend to have higher damage per energy efficiency - particularly with Relentless Strikes - which is why they're worth using. But that doesn't mean they scale better - it just means they do more damage.

 

Najani

HAT is definitely group wide, not raid wide.

I'm unsure if this has been mentioned, but HAT can proc off Hunter's pet specials. Tested on a training dummy with a hunter just standing there while his pet went to town. Though they're proc rate isn't outstanding at the moment with most BM hunters taking the 51 point talent, thus being focus starved. However, if one HAT rogue was in a group with four hunters, each with four pets, that would be 9 players/pets that could proc HAT. (Suddenly I want confirmation that hunter specials count. I'm pretty sure they do considering the amount of CPs I was getting with hunter groups.)

Group makeup largely seems defendant on the encounter. For instance, you may be better off picking a full melee group on KJ than including hunters who are often chasing orbs.

All in all, HAT was fun, but I'll stick to combat for consistency.

 

Driniun

So I have been reading over this post for the last few days trying to get caught up.

A little about me: I quit the game pre-BC, and just came back about 4 weeks ago. I play a NE Rogue, and I am trying to find the most consistent spec / or the best bang for my buck spec.

From what I understand from reading this is that these specs seem to be the top 3 so far:

Dual Daggers - Mutilate / Assassination
Fist MH / Dagger OH - Combat 5/5 Close Quarter Combat
Fist MH / Sword OH - Combat with 5/5 Close Quarter Combat and 4/5 Sword Specialization

I just want to make sure I'm understanding all of this right. Or if there is one that is superior to the other. I played Sword Spec for a while after coming back and really enjoyed the Combat spec aspect (as long as there was no Sap'd, sheeped, or shackled targets near me for Blade Furry purposes.) And I felt like I had some pretty solid DPS. I was equipped with The Horsemen's Blade MH and Quickening Blade of the Prince OH. Now I have Dagger of Bad Mojo MH and Merciliess Gladiator's Shiv OH.

I'm also saving up for a new MH weapon through the Badge of Justice rewards. Should I spend it on the Fist? Or spend it on some other things?

So, from your opinion, which is the better spec?

 

MasterDinadan

Off-handing a dagger is never advantageous compared to off-handing a sword. You can pick up 5/5 CQC and 4/5 Sword Spec without losing any other DPS talents. The only advantage you gain by dropping sword spec and off-handing a dagger is picking up 4 points worth of combat filler (and lowering your damage).

 

• Aldriana

Wrong. This is true only when considering weapons of equal speed - if you can get a dagger of comparable DPS that is faster than your sword, it can be worth using. While at 70 that's a fairly safe assumption (given the availability of good 1.4 speed swords), at 80 this breaks down - there's a good 1.4 speed dagger, but no swords faster than 1.5. So while it's true that *currently*, *at 70*, you're probably better off with an OH sword (depending on what you have access to), to say that it *never* makes sense to OH a dagger is vastly overstating the case - it actually makes quite a bit of sense in some circumstances.

 

KasumiRevy

After playing with Hunger for Blood for a few days I have started to wonder how many rogues will really be able to play that style. The spec is unforgiving and really requires some focus, even more so then it used to. While they made a few things easier, I am bordering on overwhelmed playing it.

Exploit Weakness x
Deadly Poisons x
Slice and Dice x
Rupture x
Coup de Grace x
Combo Points x
Energy x
Hunger for Blood x
Surroundings x

I'm having a hard time with the thought of seriously playing 51 in assassination for raiding for a prolonged amount of time. I hope we get some good mods for this spec, otherwise I think you will find a lot of rogues burning out and going combat.

 

Driniun

So it would make sense then, for the current state of the game, to have Fist MH 5/5 CQC with an OH Sword with a 1.4 second delay and 4/5 Sword Specialization. If I can't find a sword that's like that, then should I stick with a 1.4 dagger in my OH?

I agree, it is quite difficult to stay on top of everything at once, especially if you miss a finisher once, or twice, then that can just cause a problem with your DPS all the way around. On top of that, with Poison Immune mobs it causes a problem with that spec.

 

• Aldriana

So, let me be clear here: I haven't run any detailed numbers on level 70 mechanics, since, frankly, they don't matter. In less than two weeks level 70 mechanics and gear all go out the window, so I haven't bothered studying them. So if you'd like answers specifically to your gearing situation, I'd pull out the spreadsheet and see what you can come up with.

Now, if I had to guess: yes, I would expect a 1.4 speed dagger to be comparable or superior to a 1.5 (or slower) sword of comparable DPS. And assuming comparable DPS, I'd take the dagger, as utility talents are not useless. This is doubly true when you start leveling to 80, as there are a number of talents (Unfair Advantage comes to mind) that, while useless for raiding, are distinctly helpful for farming, grinding, and leveling. So my recommendation would be: grab the spreadsheet, get some damage estimates, and then, based on the relative DPS values and your preferences in terms of utility talents, make the decision for yourself.

 

doozer667

Has anyone else had any problems with mutilate rotations? Just for the heck of it I bought some 1.4 daggers to mess with the dummies in IF and no matter how hard I tried and how many variations in the rotation I made I was letting rupture drop.

 

Safiyania

The short answer to your line of inquiry is that it's ok for your rupture to drop (refreshing it before it does is suboptimal). You want to maximize rupture uptime, but this does not mean that there won't be periods where it is not up. Now, Slice and Dice dropping off, that is a problem if that is happening. I've found that if I cut it too close with an envenom my Slice and Dice won't refresh properly. I suspect the issue may be related to the mod I use to track SnD having an apparent delay in updating after a CttC SnD refresh via an Envenom but unless you are expertise capped waiting to envenom with less than 3s on your SnD timer is playing with fire anyways. Hope that helps.

 

Mækk

NeedToKnow and TellMeWhen will help you keep track of things.
And as mentioned, rupture up-time is secondary to not dropping SnD.

 

orsraunia

I consider having a more challenging play style a good thing and this is one of the reasons i am main-changing from Hunter to Rogue. I would even like it better if Blizzard moved us deeper into not having a clear rotation and we had to make on the fly decisions on where our next combo points would go. I'd personally like to see that happen for all the classes, but that's just me. So in my opinion do not despair, because it will be more fun to play something more challenging, provided that it will pay off in efficiency when played properly.

I haven't made any real theorycrafting yet, as i am waiting for more data on what the armor of bosses will really be at lvl80, what my AP will be by trying to keep a decent crit chance, e.t.c. My first impressions of the new Assassination rogue's playstyle is that he/she will be wanting to have a 100% uptime of rupture and Hunger for Blood, envenoming when deadly poison stacks allow it and maybe even dump some combo points in Eviscerate, depending on combo point generation. If you add to the above the use of Tricks of the Trade and imagine a boss fight where you have to move for a good deal of time and/or kick, then you have a challenging and fun experience.

We should see more challenging play-styles in the game and even see Blizzard announcing that such play-styles will have more margin for error and thus be really rewarding when played properly instead of watching Blizzard announcing that it will make such play-styles easier and less complex (like what they said about the new affliction warlock).

Finally, if one thinks that at a specific boss fight playing this spec would be a pain or if the boss is immune to poisons, we can always switch on the fly using dual spec (provided we get it), swords at hand and time for some old fashioned sinister spaming.

 

• Latito

Rupture uptime is secondary to a lot of things.


My point in this post is to give rogues who are a little bit lost with this "new" talent tree (Assasination/HfB-Mutilate) and how they should be playing it. I'm not claiming to be the best or that I can't be wrong. That said, I've kept up to date with this thread (and its predecessors) and have been playing the rogue class at the highest level of raiding for quite a while now. As always, I welcome discussion on the cycle mechanics and such, especially if you think I'm wrong or could improve upon my analysis.

Basically you just need to play Mutilate as a priority system:
-Never let SnD fall (via CttC Envenoms)
-Never let HfB fall
-Use a finisher at 4+ combo points.

Basically you end up with 2 seperate but simultaneous rotations: a simple one where you refresh HfB every ~29 seconds and another for Mut/finishers.

Have a timer which shows your HfB buff with time remaining very clearly. Watch it and take note when it has less than ~5 seconds left that you'll need to put some energy into that soon - plan your other moves accordingly.

Have a timer that shows your SnD buff with time remaining very clearly. Also, have a debuff timer which clearly shows your Rupture and your Deadly poison stacks with time remaining. Mutilate 'till you have 4 or 5 combo points. Check your SnD timer (and HfB timer) if you think you can't fit in a finisher and get back to 4 combo points before SnD wears out, use Envenom. If for whatever reason you don't have a deadly poison stack up, wait until you are at ~80 energy and Evis if you still don't have a deadly up (is Shiv/Enven a better option at this point.. how much does Envenom beat Evis by?). If your SnD has enough time on it (generally ~10 seconds is a decent mark), check your rupture timer. If you don't have a rupture up, hit rupture. If you do but its only got 2-3 seconds left.. wait. Don't let your energy cap out - if you're nearly capped on energy and rupture is still up - hit another Envenom.

In practice this generally means you end up doing 4+ Enven, 4+ Rupture when you don't get Ruthlessness or a Crit on any of the Mutilates. If you get a couple Ruthlessness procs in a row with Crit mutilates you'll often have time to fit in a second Envenom. I'd recommend also being able to clearly see your Enveom buff so that you don't Envenom while it is already up unless you would otherwise cap out on energy. As an example, this week on Brutallus I had 59 Rupture ticks and 11 Envenoms in a 2:30 kill. 59 Rupture ticks works out 79% rupture uptime and 1 envenom every 13.6 seconds. 59 Rupture ticks means I hit rupture 8 times, a majority of the time with 4 combo points.

I'd further recommend that if you're new to Mutilate and want to improve - try the test dummies out for a bit. HOWEVER, keep in mind a few things. First, raid buffs will change stat weightings and even your cycles. On the test dummy you'll be roughly 10-15% crit behind what you'll get in a raid. This means fewer single-mutilate finishers via Ruthlessness + Crit-Mut. Don't do a 3 minute test with 1 set of gear then a 3 minute test with another set of gear and pronounce set A better than set B in a raid - use the dummies to get a feel for the cycles.

Also, keep in mind that this is more related to lvl 70. At lvl 80 our Rupture will last longer (Glyph). This leads to a much higher chance that Rupture will still be up after an Envenom + Mutilate to 4 combo points. You will likely find at 80 that you run into a 4+Rupture, 4+Enven, 4+Enven cycle. This was mentioned a while back by Ald (I think :S). Basically, maintaining a cycle which is at most 23 seconds long (SnD length) and at least 20 seconds (rupture length) with an energy bar only 100 big, just isn't possible long-term. You'll certainly run into the scenario where it does happen that way, but fitting in multiple Envenoms between ruptures will be more even common.

 

MasterDinadan

I can not say whether this is true all of the time or not, but I had to make the choice between off-handing either the S2 dagger or the S2 sword, weapons with identical stats except for speed. I used the spreadsheet and found that the sword came out on top due to Sword Specialization, but it was close. I don't even have much haste, and I suspect that adding haste will further benefit the sword more than the dagger. The reason is that off-hand hits with the sword can do more. They can proc poisons, combat potency, and a main hand swing. Daggers do all of that except the main hand swing, they just do it more often. The more haste you have, the less difference there is in swing speed and the sword becomes more and more useful because it is only a TINY bit slower but has more proc effects attached to it.

Now, I want to emphasize that this is 1.5 sword vs 1.4 dagger. If you find yourself making the same comparison at 80, the sword is likely to still be a good choice, but it is so close that I think you'd be best off just taking whichever weapon had better DPS/stats, regardless of it's type, and if the speed difference is .2 or greater then you should probably just take the fast one anyway.


Edit - I take back what I said about haste, it shouldn't matter as it benefits both weapon types by an equal percentage (by increasing the frequency of all the procs). One should test the next stat values with a sword and a dagger off-hand and see if there's any significant differences in the values. One could simply scale better altogether, or one could simply scale differently with certain stats. I suspect that off-handing the sword will value hit more than off-handing the dagger, due to the fact that sword spec proc triggers another attack which is subject to missing.

 

hu7363

Agreed.But I think deadly poison won't be a problem.Dual wielding two daggers,new windfury totem, SnD and around 65% chance to apply deadly poison,this won't a problem...Also there should be new glyphs for poisons!

 

Lucke

So assuming equal DPS its better with the swd OH, but what if its not? Trying to figure where the break is to drop sword spec (if thats even reasonable) given that I currently have HotDeciever MH, and the option fo Kalecgos' fang or Blade of Savagery for the OH. 4% chance for a MH hit vs 5% more OH crit+higher base DPS; not even sure how to model this.

My appologies if I have missed this, still tightening my mastery of the search bar - has the ability to gem for haste been touched much? Trying to figure where the "cut off" point for passive haste is, if any. Currently at 183 so my OH is at 1.25...just seems like there will be diminishing returns at some point.

 

MasterDinadan

It's tough to say. Intuitively, you think the dagger because of better stats, but this is a case where the dagger actually has WORSE speed instead of better, so all of the advantages I talked about earlier are out the window. All I can tell you is consult the spreadsheet.


Now, more about HaT spec. I'm starting to think it might be viable. Since nobody has an effective model for it, we can only try it out. I tried it in ZA tonight, in mostly ZA/t5 gear, and my DPS was very similar to what is typical (I normally am about 1150 on recount, tonight I was 1050). I was missing a lot of key buffs tonight, and was playing poorly (SnD dropped a lot, I had bad rupture uptime, and I NEVER remembered to shadowstep though it probably would have been a DPS gain to do it on every other rupture.) I realize that one night with the spec is not really statistically significant, but I definitely made more mistakes than I would as combat, so I think it's viable.

This is at the middle tiers of BC raiding, I can't say whether it is the case for the highest tiers (though I've heard subtlety success stories from SWP rogues) and it may not be at 80 either, but I have hope.

 

◊ chalon

Great post Latito. Yeah, you definitely run Mutilate with a priority system more or less as you wrote, though generally I think it's good to specify the "maximize rupture uptime" part as one of your primary priorities. I've raided Naxx at 80 quite a bit, and definitely you are able to fit 2, sometimes 3 Envenoms between each Rupture depending on Ruthlessness/Crit luck.

I definitely don't mind the fact that the cycle requires paying attention to a lot of different things. Not only does it help separate the good rogues from the not-so-good ones, the depth and things you can do to improve your DPS feels pretty rewarding.

 

• Aldriana

If I may nitpick a bit, this is not quite true. I've put together some estimates about the value of deep-sub specs, and the conclusion seems to be that, despite the vast number of combo points HaT gives, it's still not enough to overcome the weaknesses of the Subtlety tree. I put it perhaps 10% behind Combat and Mutilate in terms of personal DPS; even with the Hemo debuff, it's total raid DPS is still clearly inferior. It's certainly closer than it has been at some times in the past, but I'm fairly confident it's still behind.

 

MasterDinadan

What spec are you modelling? I was using 10/7/44 but I have no idea if there's a better way to go. I'm really interested in trying some stuff out because this was actually a lot of fun to play.

If the DPS comes out slightly lower in a "Patchwerk" kind of situation, the extra mobility of shadowstep could prove really useful in some situations and Enveloping Shadows can mitigate a lot of damage in some situations. Say the rest of the raid has to be able to survive a big damage spike so they wear stam gear, you can skimp on the stam and gain some extra dps points that way... assuming the damage spike is classified as AoE of course.

 

Najani

You never want to use shadowstep in a pve situation. A shs-> rupture may add more damage, but the added damage does not outweigh the energy cost. Also, you really shouldn't even have the points for ShS in a HAT build.

Second, I question if you could put together a truly optimal group in a 10 man. You need to be pulling in a ridiculous amount of combo points to make HAT worth a damn. Ideally you want to be able to maintain SnD and Rupture while spamming Evis with only the occasional hemo tossed in to stop your energy from capping. Evis glyph is pretty much essential (I was seeing 70+ percent crit rate on evis. Speaking of, I'm not sure I would attempt this spec without an ATofL trinket.). For your second glyph, probably SnD, maybe the Hemo glyph will out perform it? I dunno, I was using SnD.

Here is the build I was using, I haven't bothered to look at what anyone else has been using as it was more of an experiment than anything. HAT SPEC


Perhaps 2 points from precision could go to blood spatter. I figured precision would still win out since wws reports were showing about 50% of my damage was white. I'm too lazy to check. An argument could be made for Ruthlessness, frankly I was seeing too many CPs coming in to care about 1 more.

Keep in mind that HAT is pretty much only (perhaps) useful in a raid setting. Solo grinding anything with this spec is hell.

 

MasterDinadan

I don't necessarily agree that Shadowstep isn't worth the energy cost. With my gear, if I spec Blood Spatter and Serrated Blades, rupture does roughly 2000 damage. Add in all the AP buffs and mangle, and it's going to get pretty high. 20% of that for 10 energy is not trivial at all. I've seen a lot of people argue "Why spend 10 energy for 20% of a rupture when you can get a full rupture for 25 energy?" Well, you can't exactly spam rupture. The energy you are giving up on the shadowstep is taking energy out of your hemo budget, not your rupture budget. Hemo costs 3.5 times as much as shadowstep. Does your hemo hit for 70% of your rupture damage? You do way less damage by saving that shadowstep energy for a hemo, and all you get is a combo point or two. HaT is not exactly starving for combo points.

This isn't even taking into account the fact that shadowstepping may earn you a few seconds of white damage in the right situation if your not already on the target. Now, I may be willing to accept that Shadowstep isn't worth the talent point (considering it's effectively only adding an average of 10% per rupture) but if you already spec for it then I don't see why you wouldn't use it.

 

Oscarvil

Here is the relevant analysis of Shadowstep by Aldriana done 4 months ago. Maybe someone would like to repeat the analysis to take into account the new talent changes and/or level 80 in order to draw an informed conclusion. I'm sorry but I don't have the time to do it myself )-:

Here is another useful post by Aldriana, this time on the white damage gain from shadowstep done in September.

Searching the thread is fun (-:

 

Eldrea

Hey guys, been trying my best to clump together the information I have come across since I havent visited this thread since the patch.

I have been trying to prepare for the expansion, and was curious if mutilate was still the best spec for RAIDING at 80? I am still a lover of combat spec and have heard about this idea of fist mh/sword offhand, how does that work and how well is it performing?

I tried mutilate spec before and I honestly wasn't that big of a fan of it, nor do I have the gear for it at all (I have the badges for daggers, but I am too afraid to buy them since I have heard sooo many different answers on what speed mh/oh lol)

I'll spec for mutilate if I HAVE to, but I honestly don't like it that much but I wan't to perform in raids the best I can for my guild.

 

xvvx01

Mutilate and Combat are pretty on par, depending on certain situations. They both have it's pros and cons. I don't see a problem that if you prefer a certain spec, you can spec into it without feeling guilty about using a "sub-par spec".