Oh... pure win.

And I thought that my Ember of Azzinoth, which decided to pull 1st boss in MgT hero when we were starting trashes in the room was fun...

But really - those moments give a flavor to farming old instances, don't they?

I haven't thought through the theory behind this, but it seems Killing Spree can do some wonky things from time to time. The anecdote I have to give is on Kalecgos. I save my DPS cooldowns for when I'm in the spectral realm, and I simply cannot use Killing Spree on Sathrovarr the Corruptor. I theorize that this is because KS is either ignoring him, or being overridden and attempting to target Kalecgos, and so it just gives me error messages and doesn't use the skill.

If someone else has noticed this in this thread already, feel free to move along; nothing to see here folks.

They could clean up Killing Spree by making a glyph that prevents it from changing targets at all, would be very useful as a minor glyph, but probably not worth a major slot for PVE, with SnD, Rupture, and Sinister Strike basically being required.

It would be a fantastic PvP glyph, probably even overpowered, but we're not really here to talk about that. I think the most reasonable change they could make to KSpree without making it broken is to guarantee that you will return to the first target you hit. We're not really here to talk about how things could be different either though.

Timing KSpree is often an important issue to consider. You want to use it at a time when you'll maximize it's damage, but you also don't want to end up bouncing to some random mob, or into some AoE damage. Now that it makes you unstoppable, it's ideal to pop it right before a stun or a fear hits you, if you are able to time it.

On Nightbane, I wouldn't use it during the skeleton phase, even if not for the possibility of warping off the edge. I'd use it right before a Bellowing Roar.

Have read the vast majority of this thread and have not seen this mentioned. I noticed this also. I have cleared all of BT and SWP with Killing Spree in my spec and Sathrovarr is the only mob I've experienced this with.

I guess, it is necessary to compile a list of any other mobs that have this (broken) mechanic, to further explore the issue?

KSpree "Invalid Target" issues have already been mentioned in this thread here and here in reference to the Kalecgos fight.

Yesterday GC did mention they were aware of some of the positioning gripes about KSpree such as it not returning you to the original target in a multi-target sittuation and posisioning/facing issues upon completion when used on a single target. Unfortunately, we aren't likely to see any such changes in the near future. I, however, don't recall them referencing the reported "invalid target" issues yet.

Rotation? Killing Spree is a 2 minute cooldown ability, thus you want to use it as soon as possible*. Anyways, as of current live build, you can't use specials while under Killing Spree, so you want to activate it after you have used all your energy and have Slice and Dice up.

*Obviously there are many complications with the ability, boss-fight dependent. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out when it is a bad idea to use KS, though.

Having Slice and Dice up is immaterial to Killing Spree as the 10 attacks it triggers are unaffected by haste and, last I checked, it temporarily suspends the normal swing timer (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this one!). I tend to have Slice and Dice up ANYWAY, but it's not what I check for. Personally, I watch for Ashtongue/SoC procs (depending on which of the two I'm using), before popping it, or will use it right after an envenom to get a stack of deadly back up ASAP within the envenom buff.

Ok so heres the deal,I recently switched out some gear and such and my dps has improved but,One of the officers thinks my miss on white is 2 high like 14% on bosses(mutilate btw).I'm at 200 hit right now but he's having me run +15hit to gloves tonight to see if it makes a difference,can someone give me a idea of what my swing miss should be as mutilate so I can let my officer know or even let me know if that high is somewhat normal.

There is no 'right' quantity of miss.

If your special attacks are all landing, you're fine. Given TBC raid gear at level 70, that amount of hit should be trivial to attain. Given TBC PvP gear and hit gems, it's entirely possible to obtain. Similar results should repeat at level 80.

Now, if you're combat specced and the main provider for a Savage Combat debuff, or Muti and responsible for 3% crit via Master Poisoner, you'll probably want to make sure you're poison hit-capped to keep that debuff uptime maxed (in fact, you'll probably want to be poison hit capped anyway for DPS reasons, but it's not mandatory depending on other tradeoffs).

As for miss on white attacks, it is what it is based on your gear. There isn't a magic number or a 'right amount'. If you can miss 1% more of the time, but your attacks that land will do 50% more damage, well, that's an easy trade to make - choosing between any other stat and hit will provide a similar tradeoff, on a smaller scale. Sometimes, the 1% hit will be worth more DPS. Sometimes, it won't be. The specific numbers depend on your spec, rotation, buffs, boss armor and debuffs, encounter requirements, and positioning relative to various caps - Hit's value decreases past the cap for special attacks, then decreases further after the cap for poisons, and decreases to 0 after the cap for auto-swing.

In general, 15 Agi to gloves > 15 hit to gloves post 3.0. Pre 3.0, 15 hit to gloves probably would've been superior if we'd had access to it and you had sufficient room under the cap.

It was changed before it ever went live so that it does not suspend your normal swings during its duration. So having SnD up during it will definitely be a benefit. And while you can not use specials once you activate killing spree, if you have Blade Flurry up before you hit Killing spree, it will cause killing spree to hit 2 targets.

Very useful information... I had assumed that KSpree still procced combat potency because I noticed procs happen during KSpree, but as long as the auto attacks keep going, that would explain it.

The use of auto attacks during the KSpree further widen the gap between its use as single and multi-target dps. Frankly, I'd always use it on a single target if I can help it. This is even more true in PvP (I hate to bring it up again) but jumping around doing minimal damage to a lot of targets just doesn't cut it. This makes combat a better spec in 2v2 or even 3v3 but not as useful in 5v5. You can't use it to burst down a target if any opponent wandering within 10 yards will cause you a headache.

Considering that using it as multi-target DPS is generally a bad idea, one wonders why they bothered to make it function on multiple targets at all. Granted, it could be (like I mentioned earlier) that always allowing it to hit only a single target makes it overpowered. PvPers have some counter to KSpree by simply staying near each other (but not near enough for blade flurry to hit...)

Hey, since fast/fast is apparently the new hotness for Mutilate, I was wondering what the amount of dps you could add to a weapon for each 0.1 speed was.

Hi,

There have been a couple of brief mentions of maces in this thread, but no one seems to have modelled it ... yet. I only have anicdotal evidence to go on and I'll share it here - BTW - I love my mace

I'm using the Syphon MH and S2 sword OH and have 5 pts in both Sword and Maces, 8/53/0 build. My gear has improved a great deal as we are now into SWP, having jsut completed BT and Hyjal the week before 3.0.2 ... so when I started noticing how good the mace was I was wearing 2/5 T4 and 1/5 T5, with most of my gear being from SSC (I don't raid a lot anymore since having a baby).

The best rogue in our guild who I was comparing my dps to is a 5/8 T6 rogue, using the badge daggers in Mut spec, then the following week using the OH Sword from Mother and MH Sword from SSC.

All 4 raids where I compared DPS to him, I was winning on boss fights and he was ahead on trash mobs. My rotation on bosses (due to 2 T4) is 1s/5r ... will have to change it now I have some T6. On single target tank and spank bosses (for example all bosses in Hyjal) I was top of the DPS list, often by a good margin. It's not something I'm accustomed to, as Huntards have always held that honor pre-3.0.2.

Bottom line - on average i was 2.2k dps on bosses where I could maintain constant dps and cycles, compared to 2.1k for better geared rogue. On bosses where we had to move, multi-target, etc we were both lower but I was still doing more dps. I am a dwarf so get the mace expertise bonus (TY Bliz) and strongly suspect the -15% AP is applied before some of the other armor buffs otherwise I can't expplain why my dps is so high compared to spreadsheet theory-crafting. All the spreadsheets I have tried suggest that Burnintrees (comparison rogue) should be doing more DPS.

Anyone have anything further on Maces, especially in the hands of us dumpy little Dwarves?

First of all, get a glyph of Slice and Dice and throw away that 2/5 T4. It is a great set bonus, but it doesn't stack with the glyph, so just get the glyph and upgrade!

Secondly, comparing yourself to one other rogue and considering ONLY the fact that he's better geared is quite a fallacy to make. Even if you collect a large number of samples from both rogues, the observations are dependent on so many factors that it's impossible to tell which is contributing to the difference (if indeed the difference is significant).
It could simply be that the other rogue messed up somewhere in his spec, or that he is forgetting to use his cooldowns as often as possible, or that he is letting his energy cap out too much, or he is using a bad cycle... There's about a million things that could cause your DPS to be consistently higher than his, attributing it to the weapon type used is not that good.

Really, the spreadsheet is all you can go on. If the spreadsheet says you do more DPS with maces, then use maces, otherwise don't. To say that mace spec hasn't been modeled is rather short sighted, as it is clearly modeled in the spreadsheet (the mechanics are not even complicated, so modeling it's effect on DPS is easily done). If the other rogue is not beating you even if his gear and spec indicate better numbers in the spreadsheet, it isn't that the spreadsheet is wrong, it's that the other rogue is making too many mistakes.

Maybe he's just not good. No way to tell besides your word on it.

Also, might want to try this spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I'd even theorize that no checks whatsoever are made during the duration of KSpree. It's obvious in PvP, when a target dies during the run-time, and you still teleport to its dead body.

In regards of retroraiding, be careful on Nefarian with KSpree. It can either teleport you into his tail lash or cleave range, don't remember exactly which of both it was.
May be useful on a rogue call though.

I believe it was stated earlier that all possible targets are chosen from a 10 yard radius when you activate the ability, this allows you to use KS to 'follow' a mob if it continues to move (eg, I'll follow Entropius around as he's moved.)

A good test of this would be to pop it on a mage friend with no other eligible targets in the area and have them blink away during KS. I'm sure someone has already tested that and I've just not read it but if not, I'll plan on checking myself tonight anyway.

I think they fixed the issue with teleporting to a dead target. It's not in the official patch notes, but I believe it was mentioned in an earlier version of the notes (back when KSpree made you untargetable). At the very least, I haven't noticed it happen with KSpree. It's been working just fine since the patch.

I do not believe this is correct. When there is no second target, the only benefit that BF gives is added haste. AR does not stack with any haste buff, the only thing you would want to stack AR with is procs that increase AP or Crit so the extra abilities you gain from the added energy hit harder. So stacking BF and KS would be fine on a single mob as well, and you probably want to stack them anyway since they both have a 2 min cooldown. What you dont want to do is stack KS and AR as the inability to spend energy during KS with the added energy regen will most likely cap your energy.

By that same token, I don't see how using BF + KS to DPS a single target is any different from popping BF on its own, from a buff stacking standpoint. What additional benefit, other than synced cooldowns, do you gain from stacking the two buffs?

KS + AR is probably inadvisable, but seeing how in 2.5 seconds you would only regen 25 * 2 * (1 + .25) + (.2 * 3 * 15) energy (~71.5 on average... normal regen * AR * Vitality + Combat Potency), it wouldn't really be a DPS breaker, assuming you drained your energy pool prior to starting KS + AR.

Not really a big deal now but I'm pretty sure this is false. I have the glyph and 2 piece t4 and they definitely stack. It's trivial to see this in action, simply do a 1 pt slice and dice and check the duration, then break your set bonus and do another one. You will see that the snd activated with the set bonus is exactly 3 seconds longer.

Also, if you are out dpsing this rogue even with a large gear disparity the simple solution is that you are better then he is. If you have a wws of the raid you should be able to do a rogue comparison and check things like parried attacks, snd drops, poison choices, and extremely important: dps time.