for some time I follow a lot of what I read here, testing some things myself, understanding others, all in all thanks for the great job which is done here.
Now for a question.
For a classical combat spec, I assumed the correct poisons were wound/deadly, either right or left hands based on the speeds. However, I read some other rogue saying that double wound worked better for him.
He came with a WWS, and from a quick overview, double wound seems better than deadly/wound.
for some time I follow a lot of what I read here, testing some things myself, understanding others, all in all thanks for the great job which is done here.
Now for a question.
For a classical combat spec, I assumed the correct poisons were wound/deadly, either right or left hands based on the speeds. However, I read some other rogue saying that double wound worked better for him.
He came with a WWS, and from a quick overview, double wound seems better than deadly/wound.
The gain of double wound against wound/deadly would not be enormous, but it still tickles me a little.
Any idea/input about this?
They are very close, you are correct on standstill fights, but on fights where deadly may drop multiple times double wound is better. I always use double wound on trash/fights with adds, and wound/deadly on 100% on boss target fights.
They are very close, you are correct on standstill fights, but on fights where deadly may drop multiple times double wound is better. I always use double wound on trash/fights with adds, and wound/deadly on 100% on boss target fights.
That's basically it. Deadly is slightly better at the cost of being slightly more inconvenient to maintain. If you are very attentive to the stacks duration and never let it drop (even if you have to shiv) then you should do better with deadly. When you have to run out of melee, you can shiv before you run out and then shiv again right when you get back in in order to maintain the stack, as long as you didn't run out for more than 12 seconds.
A lazy rogue in movement intensive encounters will not be keeping up deadly enough to make it worthwhile. If you don't mind managing the task of keeping up a DP stack in addition to all the other things you have to watch, then you should see better results.
in a raid environment you should almost never be using eviscerate over envenom. Envenom ignores armor and the drop in DP is made up for by the envenom proc re-applying it faster. The only times I can think of using eviscerate are when the mob is unpoisonable or if the mob has 0 armor, and I'm not even sure about that.
I don't think it would necessarily need to be 0 armor; but it would need to be very low. (lower than you would expect to see in a raid environment)
On paper the average eviscerate hit should be stronger (ignoring armor for a moment) until ~3040AP (after which, envenom will always be better regardless of circumstance) which means that estimating the amount of armor below which eviscerate is better would require knowing individual ArP and AP values and it would be difficult to come up with a rule of thumb.
Fiddling with a spreadsheet I ended up with a slight dps increase (<20dps) using pre-raid gear at 70, so it's possible that at the start of a raiding career eviscerate is better than envenom, but this would change almost immediately with kara/za/badge gear. Whether or not this relationship repeats itself at level 80 blues with Envenom IV and Eviscerate XII remains to be seen.
They are very close, you are correct on standstill fights, but on fights where deadly may drop multiple times double wound is better. I always use double wound on trash/fights with adds, and wound/deadly on 100% on boss target fights.
Something to keep in mind if you are running double-deadly, each time your deadly poison debuff is refreshed on the target, if you don't have any other poisons on the target, your Savage Combat debuff is taken off for about 1second. IIRC there is a warrior debuff in arms that overwrites Savage Combat, but if you don't have an arms warrior, the lost time on SC being up might offset the dps gain from not using deadly.
in a raid environment you should almost never be using eviscerate over envenom. Envenom ignores armor and the drop in DP is made up for by the envenom proc re-applying it faster. The only times I can think of using eviscerate are when the mob is unpoisonable or if the mob has 0 armor, and I'm not even sure about that.
I don't think we've actually conclusively shown that in general. It's certainly true for some specs and builds that Envenom is better, but I'm not at all convinced that there aren't also going to be some where Eviscerate takes the cake. It's one of those many, many, topics that are going to require additional discussion and analysis before we come to a final conclusion.
I've always been a rogue who respecs multiple times a week (combat/sub) due to arena and raids. Well, after adding up all the respecs just in the past month I've had enough. Last night I finally spent badges for my MH dagger and I went into the assassination tree so that I can be viable in both situations.
In raids I've always used 5s/5r. Now with the sub tree I'm a newbie and only see using 5s/5r again, but I really want to use Cut to the chase, but I'm pretty sure a rupture would be far more superior.
I guess I'm just confused about what rotation to use as mut spec. CttC taunts me so I don't have to refresh my own SnD.
I've always been a rogue who respecs multiple times a week (combat/sub) due to arena and raids. Well, after adding up all the respecs just in the past month I've had enough. Last night I finally spent badges for my MH dagger and I went into the assassination tree so that I can be viable in both situations.
In raids I've always used 5s/5r. Now with the sub tree I'm a newbie and only see using 5s/5r again, but I really want to use Cut to the chase, but I'm pretty sure a rupture would be far more superior.
I guess I'm just confused about what rotation to use as mut spec. CttC taunts me so I don't have to refresh my own SnD.
You haven't been reading this thread (or searching it) very proactively then. I will summarize briefly, specced 51/5/5 you:
1. Ensure Hunger for Blood is stacked at 3
2. Get a slice n dice going
3. Maximize rupture uptime in between envenoms that refresh your slice n dice.
4. Don't let HfB fall off.
You run a cycle of 4+n/4+r once the SnD is going.
Never mutilate again once you have 4 combo points.
The spreadsheet models right now say that 7/51/13 is the higher DPS build, but there is no reason to pick up opportunity, since garotte in most cases will lose you DPS over just running in un-stealthed and sinister striking.
Sorry to pick nits, but I have repeatedly seen the assertion that you can open on a boss sooner without stealth than you can with stealth go unchallenged in this thread an others.
While there are fights that boss movement at the start of the fight makes it hard to predict where he will be (mostly in Hyjal), in my experience the vast majority of fights you can position yourself before the pull so that you can open with a garrote as soon as it is safe to start DPS.
It is certainly true that opening with garrote vs. opening with SS doesn't have a large impact on your DPS, but saying that in general, you can't open on a boss from stealth without losing DPS uptime is absolutely false.
It is certainly true that opening with garrote vs. opening with SS doesn't have a large impact on your DPS, but saying that in general, you can't open on a boss from stealth without losing DPS uptime is absolutely false.
Let's assume that, at best, there are a very large number of fights where you can, in fact, position yourself so that garrote from stealth is 0 DPS uptime lost. Even assuming this is true there are, as you yourself have admited, fights where opening from stealth does net lost DPS uptime. I think we can safely agree that there are 0 fights where opening from stealth offers a DPS uptime boost, I've certainly never seen one. Given that, at best, the DPS uptime between stealth and non-stealth openers is 0 and when it isn't 0 it is always lower for stealth and never lower for non-stealth it is completely accurate to say that on average you cannot open from stealth without loosing uptime in a combat build.
Stealth did let you get in position on Broodlord in BWL before the pull. Any fight where the boss is tanked in a location that would agro (ie. you don't pull the boss back to tank with MD or whatever) stealth would let you get in position before the pull and increase you dps uptime.
I can certainly see situations where the boss is spawned/positioned with some sort of LoS obstacle that prevents a direct pull by the tank or hunter to where you want him. A rogue could use TotT and stealth to Ambush and chase down the mob to the waiting tank. In that case you could technically get >100% DPS time (sort of, not really, I'm lying).
Purely speculation and fantasy on my part, but it could be fun. If there was something like that, then rogues would be 'required' and Blizz doesn't want class requirements. /sigh
Let's assume that, at best, there are a very large number of fights where you can, in fact, position yourself so that garrote from stealth is 0 DPS uptime lost. Even assuming this is true there are, as you yourself have admited, fights where opening from stealth does net lost DPS uptime. I think we can safely agree that there are 0 fights where opening from stealth offers a DPS uptime boost, I've certainly never seen one. Given that, at best, the DPS uptime between stealth and non-stealth openers is 0 and when it isn't 0 it is always lower for stealth and never lower for non-stealth it is completely accurate to say that on average you cannot open from stealth without loosing uptime in a combat build.
And my point is, it's not a good average to make. You don't make the decision to either open from stealth on all bosses or open unstealthed on all bosses. You make the decision to open from stealth when it is a DPS increase to do so, and open unstealthed when it is a DPS decrease to do otherwise.
Also, opening from stealth is a DPS uptime increase if you have a feral tank shift from cat (stealth) to bear on top of the boss, instead of pulling it. In all our raids, we only ever did it for Solarian, and I doubt most guilds do/did even for that, but there is a case that opening from stealth is more DPS uptime than running in.
Hey quick question ive been finding mixed answers on it seems.
A lot of speculation here is for 70 raiding which seems almost mute at this point now.
Anyway, ive been waiting for daggers to be viable for quite some time. My questions are as follows
1. I have s3 swords now, and my only real dagger options are s2 mh, and badge oh. I cant crunch numbers, so im curious how much, if really noticable at all, of a dmg / lvling gimp im going to see by trying to lvl with mutilate using lesser gear.
2. What weapon speeds are the best now? Id assume for raiding slow mh / fast oh for poison procs. but for leveling most mobs die so fast is slow/slow a better option for harder mut hits?
3. And finally for leveling is the dmg difference b/w evis and envenom enough to use the latter always? And if so is DP/DP the best choice to rapidly rebuild stacks? (again for leveling not raiding)
Sorry for the ignorance of half my questions, but i cant find a lot of these answers in this thread, a lot of mutil questions get drown in b/w combat. Thanks for the help in advance.
Hey quick question ive been finding mixed answers on it seems.
A lot of speculation here is for 70 raiding which seems almost mute at this point now.
Anyway, ive been waiting for daggers to be viable for quite some time. My questions are as follows
1. I have s3 swords now, and my only real dagger options are s2 mh, and badge oh. I cant crunch numbers, so im curious how much, if really noticable at all, of a dmg / lvling gimp im going to see by trying to lvl with mutilate using lesser gear.
2. What weapon speeds are the best now? Id assume for raiding slow mh / fast oh for poison procs. but for leveling most mobs die so fast is slow/slow a better option for harder mut hits?
3. And finally for leveling is the dmg difference b/w evis and envenom enough to use the latter always? And if so is DP/DP the best choice to rapidly rebuild stacks? (again for leveling not raiding)
Sorry for the ignorance of half my questions, but i cant find a lot of these answers in this thread, a lot of mutil questions get drown in b/w combat. Thanks for the help in advance.
1. Spreadsheet it.
2. Um, best daggers regardless of speed in both hands. If both daggers are of equal quality, mh the faster one.
3. Technically stuff can die so fast in leveling that finishers don't matter. If you're in a kill everything you see mood, perhaps Slice and Dice it and move to the next mob. So Instant/Instant if you're going that route.
3. Technically stuff can die so fast in leveling that finishers don't matter. If you're in a kill everything you see mood, perhaps Slice and Dice it and move to the next mob. So Instant/Instant if you're going that route.
You'll want the mobs to be poisoned to increase your mutilate damage, so for levelling you could use IP/IP with two points in Deadly Brew, or IP/Wound without that talent. Deadly hardly ever gets a chance to do full damage on questing mobs/trash.
You'll want the mobs to be poisoned to increase your mutilate damage, so for levelling you could use IP/IP with two points in Deadly Brew, or IP/Wound without that talent. Deadly hardly ever gets a chance to do full damage on questing mobs/trash.
My understanding is deadly brew just procs crippling poison? and while that poisons them, it doesnt help with envenom.
Also it has nothing to do with DP procs, its just evenom does more dmg per stack, so a full 5 stack would do more dmg. And lvling with DP/DP would allow me to refresh my stacks quite fast.....which might do more overall damage than IP?
2. Um, best daggers regardless of speed in both hands. If both daggers are of equal quality, mh the faster one.
Not quite what i was looking for. I have the s2 mh, and i can get the badge offhand. So im curious if i should buy the slow OH or the fast OH......considering how fast things die while lvling im guessing slow/slow for harder mutil crits?
My understanding is deadly brew just procs crippling poison? and while that poisons them, it doesnt help with envenom.
Also it has nothing to do with DP procs, its just evenom does more dmg per stack, so a full 5 stack would do more dmg. And lvling with DP/DP would allow me to refresh my stacks quite fast.....which might do more overall damage than IP?
Not sure. Looking for some numbers =P
Not quite what i was looking for. I have the s2 mh, and i can get the badge offhand. So im curious if i should buy the slow OH or the fast OH......considering how fast things die while lvling im guessing slow/slow for harder mutil crits?
The point was, if you're just grinding/levelling, envenom isn't exactly most efficient if that's what you're looking for. If you just wanted to see big envenom numbers just for the sake of it, then yea, go with deadly.
If they're of equal quality daggers. Faster is better. Equal quality meaning, similar dps/stats, etc.
If they're of equal quality daggers. Faster is better. Equal quality meaning, similar dps/stats, etc.
Question is why? To me it makes sense slow/slow would be better for lvling because of the stronger mutil. For raiding slow/fast seems right for white dmg + poision procs which dont seem like trash lvling fights would last long enough for those to make a difference
Could someone link me to the updated sheet that has all the new talents in it? I tried searching but cant seem to find the new sheet everyone seems to be using.
Question is why? To me it makes sense slow/slow would be better for lvling because of the stronger mutil. For raiding slow/fast seems right for white dmg + poision procs which dont seem like trash lvling fights would last long enough for those to make a difference
or am i still wrong in this thinking?
Focused Attacks. More swings, more chances to crit, more energy, more mutilates.
Really, unless you have far superior daggers to your Sword/Fist weapons, Combat is the best leveling spec (Subelty is debatable due to higher mobility and such). Assassination losses 5-10% dmg straight off the top because barely anything lives long enough to Mutilate after poisoning it. Combat has more avoidance, more frequent evasion/sprint, AoE (Blade flurry) and Adrenaline Rush and Killing Spree. When leveling, the a lot more of your time is spent off-target. Combats cooldowns play a much larger role than they would in a raid where you have to factor in all the downtime between cooldown usages.
About the only thing Assassination has going for it is Fleet Footed when you're talking about a leveling build.
i know this question might have been asked a few times but it is really impossible for me to stay up2date every day with the flow of the Rogue Thread so sorry if the question sounds a little bit annoying.
From my understanding its said that Combat should go with fist weapons now instead of going for the 5 Points in Sword.
The simple question is why because pre3.0 a raid combat rogue should go for the 5 points in sword because it seems to outperform the 5% Crit for Fistweapons in the long run at least.
Now the community says that one should go for fist weapons but to me nothing big has changed with it. It still grants you 5% Crit so whats the big deal with it anyway i am asking myself ^^
The other questions is about poisons. Pre3.0 almost every rogue used IP on the Mainhand and DP on the offhand. Well it was common sense that switching those two had not a huge impact on the dps of your character.
But now many of you guys are talking about WP on the Main and DP on the off or vice versa? So you more or less favor WP over IP and thats something i don`t understand at the moment.
11/07/08, 12:07 PM
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