Until raid leaders spend the first 20 minutes of raid time with us all standing around the 'boss' dummy in our pink leotards and leggings for pre-game practice...

"Last weeks performance was terrible, we need to step it up. Take it from the top! And Pull! 2 3 and Kick! 2 3 and Sunder and everybody Heroism!"

I said that to say this, I like the idea of the dummies and I think they're a useful tool but very limited. With the consolidation of raid buffs, Blizz can base all their tuning on the idea that even in a 10-man the majority will be present. Without a raid there to buff you and debuff the target I'm sure you couldn't reliably compare differences in DPS between two specs.

Like amele said, the only tangible gain from having them is to test things like armor/proc rates/miss rates/glancing rates/etc over long periods for large data sets. Unfortunately, much of this was already known or easily determined through other means.

Sure you could use them to practice but the reality is that rotations that may be easy in raid settings may be difficult or impossible while solo so there's limited benefit there too. That said, it's still worth practicing with in my opinion. Just don't base any spec comparisons with any dummy data; the data won't be right.

Excuse my noobness but i been a Sword rogue since BC came out..sunwell gear / Twin blades. I been reading around and I was wondering if its true that best dps most likely will be Mut spec with say 2 daggers with 1.4 speed. Shadowpanther.net has fast daggers ahead on dps of others. Obviously cause of the poison proc'ing.
Last thing how do you guys feel about using 51-13-7 with no imp SND and getting 3/5 in close quarter combat. Thanks all...

- It can be most dps in proper circumstances for it and if you got the skill level to pull it off.
- Not so obvious is that speed is good for Focused Attacks as well as Poisons. But either way, speed is just another stat, not the only thing to look at.
- And yes I feel fine with that spec, point spread wise. Specific talents you may have chosen, who knows.

Clearly I've been combat too long and took Precision for granted. I guess some old habits...or ways of thinking can die hard sometimes. I was also assuming that most BT or better geared rogues are running 300 hit rating. I should've been more clear to you Velocibrad so.....
If you're testing on level 70 test dummies and your hit rating is 379 or greater (Mut Spec w/o Precision) not counting weapon/gear swaps being tested, then that could be some of the difference. Probably not the problem though needing that much hit rating.
Combat Spec would be 300 including Precision.
I should've been more specific about specific hit cap numbers for Velocibrad to comparer to his particular setup.

Both of these statements are incorrect.

At level 70 15.76 Hit Rating = 1% to hit
The Dual-Wield Miss Rate against a boss mob is 28%

For combat you get 5% from Precision, no race gets a +hit bonus, so everyone needs 23% to hit to cap.

23 x 15.76 = 362.48, so to be hit capped verses a boss you would need Precision and 362.48 hit rating. To be hit capped as Mutilate, you would need 441.28 hit rating.

You also have expertise which reduces dodges and parries at 1% for ever 4 points of expertise which is approximately 16 Expertise Rating at level 70, humans have a racial that provides expertise for swords and maces, so the caps are different for human rogues and all others.

To never miss and never get dodged while attacking from behind, you would need 28% to hit (from gear, talents, and buffs) and 6.5% dodge reduction from expertise. Before 3.0, hit was the single best stat point for point, however since 3.0 that is no longer the case due to the changes in mechanics, so there is no reason to shoot for the hit cap as there are now better stats to gem for (just make sure you don't go over).

The discussion was specifically about attacking a level 70 training dummy, not level 73 (since they don't exist). Against a same level target (at level 70), the white hit cap is 379 without precision, and 300 with precision. The two posters you quoted were correct (although none of the information you posted was incorrect, just not relevant).

Are you sure? Could you post the log?

Because maybe you're analyzing it wrong - last I checked, the combatlog shows the Sword Spec proc before the damage, like this (quoted from first page)

-1.018 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 184. (OH swing)
-0.435 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 464. (MH swing)
+0.000 Vulajin gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
+0.000 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 202. (OH swing, 1.018s since the last OH)
+0.115 Vulajin performs Slice and Dice. (note that there's no aura gain event, I was just refreshing the buff, so my speed is constant)
+0.117 Vulajin's swing crits Servant of Razelikh for 896. (MH swing, 0.552s since the last MH)
+0.982 Vulajin's swing crits Servant of Razelikh for 433. (OH swing, 0.982s since the last OH)
+1.348 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 436. (MH swing, 1.231s since the last MH, 1.783s since the prior one)

Draenei, groupwide (NOT raidwide), +1% hit and +1% spellhit, which counts for us for poisons now.

I am surprised that HaT build has received so little attention in this forum so far. I guess it is very hard to theorycraft and some oldtimers have not tried it yet, but I think it deserves a lot more attention. Right now (granted it only matters for a few more days), it is hands down the best raiding build. Mutilate and combat cannot come close for straight dps boss fights like Brutallus.

Let me give you some numbers, on Brutallus as mutilate and combat I did about 2700-2800 dps in 3-3.5 minute fights. Other combat rogues' dps was very similar. It was also in line with some dps warrior and hunter dps in our raid. My gear is 6/8 t6, crafted sunwell ring and offhand glaive, with BT/Hyjal fillers for rest.

Then me and my friend rogue came in as 10/7/44 HaT build and did 3900 and 3700 dps. (no pots or demonslaying elixirs). The other three people in the group were hunters. You can see that the difference is overwhelming and I agree that a lot can change between now and level 80 raiding, but this spec has a lot of room for improvement. It has already soaked all the "baggage" of non-dps talents from the subtlety tree and all it has to gain is good dps talents in assassination and combat.

For those who want to try this build last time before the patch, I would like to summarize some findings:
- BM hunters have worked really well as group-mates. You also want to have the 5% crit from a feral druid and 3% crit debuff on the boss from ret pally or ele shaman.
- Having another HaT rogue in your group seems to give a huge gain in dps (about 300dps). You get another person who spams eviscerate every gcd (hopefully glyphed for higher crit rate) and is an amazing source of crits per second.
- For my highest dps, I used Kalesgos dagger MH for more poison damage. I found that with a stacked group, you really don't have to use hemo or backstab much (10% of your damage at most, should be even less). I did some number crunching and it appears that fully talented and glyphed eviscerate has higher DPE than hemo starting at 2 combo points (if you have 5/5 relentless). So just use 2 pt evisc to burn energy if you really have to.
- It also improved our dps a lot never to wait to actually see 5 combo points. With the speed of combo point generation and lag, hitting eviscerate at 3-4 combo points will give you a 5pt eviscerate. You actually have to find your own rhytm depending on your lag and group setup.
- If your eviscerate is less than 40% of your dps, something might be going on wrong. Either your group is not well setup or you waiting too long before you eviscerate.
- Expertise has huge impact on your dps. Napkin math gives me about 0.5% increase in eviscerate DPE for 1 point of expertise. (1% if a dodged eviscerate costs full 35 energy, 0.5% if it costs 11 energy like a dodged backstab).
- HaT does not proc from your poisons, but certainly procs from pet special abilities.

I still wanna test a few things this week and if someone can help, it will be appreciated. Does HaT proc from dot crits of like a shadow priest (any crit off gcd is great)? Does HaT proc from heroic strike? Does putting a third HaT rogue increase or decrease dps? (can go either way, I think it will actually increase it even more). What's better imp snd or actually ruthlessness. I know someone said who needs an extra combo point when you have a fast inflow of them, but the main thing in this build is to use eviscerate as often as possible and going from s streak of 4pt eviscerate to 5pt eviscerates is sizeable increase in dps.

Hmm, I don't have the log saved from the target dummy. I started looking at my WWS from the other night when I thought I stumbled across this, and I think I was reading incorrectly.

02:58'18.156 (MH -0.313) Zaryn melee swing hits Mother Shahraz for 1460 Physical. (Critical)
02:58'18.469 (OH 0.000) Zaryn melee swing hits Mother Shahraz for 612 Physical. (Critical)
02:58'19.359 ( 0.890) Zaryn gains 1 extra attacks through Sword Specialization.
02:58'19.359 (OH 0.890) Zaryn melee swing hits Mother Shahraz for 610 Physical. (Critical)
02:58'19.500 (MH 1.031) Zaryn melee swing hits Mother Shahraz for 565 Physical.
02:58'19.922 ( 1.453) Zaryn Sinister Strike hits Mother Shahraz for 806 Physical.
02:58'19.922 ( 1.453) Zaryn Wound Poison V hits Mother Shahraz for 233 Nature. (24 Resisted)
02:58'19.937 (MH 1.468) Zaryn melee swing hits Mother Shahraz for 619 Physical.

I was reading this as the attack at 0 procing sword spec, whereas it's actually the one at 0.89. So, recount is actually recording the swing at 0.89 as the extra attack when it's really the one at 1.031. Now I see what you guys were saying.

I'd be curious as to how 7/21/43 modeled in comparison to a more traditional 10/17/43. I can guesstimate that per point BF>Aggression>Blood Spatter>CQC=malice, but I don't know for sure. I don't think Ruth>Malice either, but there are allot of interesting combinations. Really hope we can manage to get HaT into the spreadsheet.

Per party member, blue posted as intended.

That was covered under "buffs", since there are no Draenei rogues and having one it your group is not guaranteed.


Mavanas-

Regarding HAT builds, I exchanged a couple PM's with Aldriana about them, and my guild plans to run 3-4 HAT spec'ed rogues for Sunwell tonight. While our non-HAT numbers were a good bit higher (3300-3500 for Brut last week), we still expect to see a significant gain.

The main issues with HAT:
-Sucks for leveling, Shadowstep is nice for questing, but soloing you don't have anyone else feeding you combo points, and in a 5 man group you aren't going to be getting as many CPs.
-Scales with group crit rate, everyone is going to lose 50% or so of their crit rating between now and level 80, and it will take a while to get back to Sunwell levels, which are required for it to be viable.
-Requires a very specific group set up (lots of hunters - preferable BM) to give you the max CP generation rate.

That being said, for the next 2 days, it is worth playing with if you are raiding today or tomorrow, after that you are probably better off going Combat to level and then Combat or Mutilate at 80 depending on your luck with weapon drops. HAT may be viable again by late T8 or later, but I don't think you will have the group crit rates required to sustain it in T7.

a few questions for the minds out there i've had, and nobody can really give me a solid answer with any kind of support behind it, so i bring it to you all.

mutilate spec, for pvp i know you want 2 slow weps for burst damage, do you want the same for pve, or do you go with 2 fast for better FA procs, or slow mh fast oh? 51 point talent worth taking or is it to inefficient? given the "cut to the chase" talent, would i be better off taking improved evis and just using it over rupture? given the current restaints to 61 talent points, if i do take cut to the chase, where should i drop the 1 point i'd be missing? duel weild spec, oppertunity, or RS?

and is combat dagger still shunned? is a 13/41/7 (3/5 lethality, 5/5 rs, 2/2 oppertunity) worth even considering taking to raid or for combat is sword/fist still the only considerable build?

Go for the better dps weapons. In the rare circumstance two weapons are equal but of different speed, faster is generally better.

The 51 point talent is definitely worth taking.

Don't use evisc, use envenom, but also use rupture. What to do has been mentioned plenty of times in this thread, but basically keep hfb up, and switch between using rupture and envenom depending on the slice and dice remaining duration.

You should be getting cut to the chase, dual wield spec, opportunity, and relentless strikes... I'd have to see a proposed build of yours to figure where you are wasting points earlier in the assassination tree for any specific advice.

Drop imp evisc, vigor, quick recovery, deadly brew, imp kidney shot, deadened nerves, etc, etc, and pick either master poisoner or turn the tables.



Realistically I'd just pick a leveling spec that suits you, use that, get to 80, and wait for more conclusive theory crafting at that point.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
was the build, thought tweaked with your input, that i was thinking about. however to get the 51 point talent i'd need to drop 2 points elsewhere which is where the what to drop question came from.

given the changes to mutilate, i was considering leveling as assassination, just so i can relearn it, currently i'm the old sword/fist combat build tweaked to 5/51/5, but i never liked it, so i see mutilate as a viable option finally and want to try it out.

gear wise i dont have any daggers at all at the moment, i was asking as to the preferred speeds so i know what i need to pick up, be it either pvp daggers for now, or what to drop dkp on for daggers

I've tried HaT a bit and it's pretty fun. But like you said in the first couple lines Mav, it's mostly because raiding right now is moot that we haven't discussed it intensely. These numbers are coming with top tier gear at the end of progression. Maybe at 80 when things are more settled, there might be discussion about a conversion point from standard specs into HaT ones. It would be awesome if there'd be three viable specs in this fashion at 80 but who knows until we get there.

Aside from BM hunters, a DPS feral druid works well.

Tin I might be wrong but you probably want to start with a one point SnD before you build up a 5 point one at the start of your combat rotation.

yea tin, as combat now, i've been using 2snd/5rup rotation, keeps my slice and dice up constantly, and rupture usually ends just as i'm getting my last combo point assuming no procs from the SS glyph. it's worked well for me, but it's not enjoyable, granted that's with 2/2 imp snd, and the snd glyph, i get a bit of overlap with it, but overall it's a lot more efficient then building up 5 combo points then checking to see which i should use, as with 2snd/5rup i'm always maintaining snd, and keeping a 99% uptime on rup, 100% if i get even just 1 bonus combo point from a SS crit.

although thank you for the input on the weapon speed factors, may do a quick za run to get just a baseline fast dagger to go with the badge offhand one, might as well use the badges now before they're useless :P

Well, this is my first post. (Be nice )

I have been using HaT since it came out. Although I am stuck mostly in Heroics and T4 (been playing for a month), I find that I am able to out DPS other spec rogues by up to 50% (even higher teir rogues). On Heroics, I find that I get a fairly steady bonus of 2 combo points per 5 secs. On 10-mans, I find that on boss fights I am constantly at 5 combo points with little to no energy to spend it on (after 5s/5r then either 5e or 5ev depending on DP stack). On 25-mans, I always had 5 combo points.

Example:
This last week my brother managed to get me into Mags as a deal for him to MT. Over vent I was told that if I did anything stupid I would get insta-kicked. I managed to place 3rd in overall damage and less than 5k damage away from first. I was then invited to Gruul's, where I place 2nd and only 1k damage behind 1st.

I really would like to know how I could export info from a fight into a log(?), any suggestions? I like recount because I can get a visual look at the info, but with no way to export numbers, I find that it can't be used to track my progress at developing a better cycle.

I would suggest a slightly different build from what Demi9OD posted. If you are raiding, then the points in Dirty Tricks, Ghostly Strikes, and Hemo are wasted. You will not need much of a combo builder, if at all. (Although if you stop getting combo points from HaT then there is a problem raid-wide anyway.) My Suggestion Although I might be worth it to drop the point in Lethality and put it in Hemo for any non-raid uses.

I really feel that HaT has been over-looked.

Please, any constructive criticism is welcome. I am still new but with over 10 years in PC gaming I can figure out some tricks.

Edit: Dirty Tricks, not Dirty Deeds sorry.

Hey there, this is also my first post but after looking at the spec that you posed I felt like the points put in setup could have been better utilized else where, as those are mostly pvp talents. Furthermore, where you only needed three talent points to proceed to the next tier you used three, so easily you could have put one of those in hemo, still had two in setup (if that is where you desire to put them) and maintain that individual point in Lethality.

Dirty Deeds carries with it +20% damage for 35% of the fight (probably a little less with executes and other talents that will increase raid dps during execute). You either need to spec for Hemo or backstab, but backstab requires more points because of opportunity and puncturing wounds. There is trash to clear, and other situations that call for a CP gen outside of HaT, that you would probably rather not do with a 45 energy sinister strike or non talented backstab.

I think that Setup is better than Initiative because you can use it in conjuction with CoS on a magic AoE attack. (Then again, it is unlikely you will have less than 5 combo points.) Initiative only helps you on attacks coming out of stealth, which wouldn't happen much in a raid fight.