• Aldriana

So, the others match my expectation, but this one is new and somewhat surprising to me - if true, it's a good solid 2% DPS boost over current estimates. With my gear and default buffs, RogueCalc current estimates my DPS at 2028.9 DPS; if you assume WF can proc WF, that goes up to 2073.1. That's... somewhat surprising to me. I'm not saying it isn't true, but I would like to see the log for it, as it's one of the most significant adjustments to rogue DPS estimation we've had in a while.

 

• Vulajin

Okay, here are the details of my test earlier today. I went out to the Blasted Lands with a shaman in tow to provide Windfury Totem. I equipped an unenchanted [Inuuro's Blade] in my main hand and no weapon in my off hand. I specced for Setup so that I could generate combo points off the mob's attacks and keep Slice and Dice active as much as possible to shorten the duration of the test. Thus, the only attacks I actually performed on the Servant of Razelikh were regular white attacks and the extra attacks procced by the same.

The first thing I should do is direct everybody back to my previous post, wherein I clarified the mechanics of Sword Specialization. Then I would also direct everybody back to my other previous post, wherein I somewhat clarified the interactions of Windfury and Sword Specialization. However, there were still open questions after that post, and so I've done this test.

Mechanics Review

When a regularly-scheduled attack causes an extra attack proc, this is what you see in the combat log (for example):

+0.000 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Windfury Attack.
+0.001 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 480. (Critical) <--- caused the proc
+0.184 Vulajin gains Windfury Attack. <--- the Windfury AP buff
+0.188 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 587. (Critical) <--- WF swing

In the actual combat log file, this appears as:

To summarize, the extra attack proc notification immediately precedes the swing that causes the proc. The extra attack comes next, usually within half a second at most.

Consecutive vs. Simultaneous Extra Attacks

Now, sometimes multiple extra attacks happen at the same time. This can take two forms. Here's the first form:

+0.000 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Sword Specialization.
+0.002 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Windfury Attack.
+0.004 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 249. <--- caused BOTH procs
+0.102 Vulajin gains Windfury Attack.
+0.119 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 280. <--- an extra attack
+0.120 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 602. (Critical) <--- an extra attack

In the log:

Here's the second form:

+0.000 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Windfury Attack.
+0.001 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 229. <--- caused the WF proc
+0.033 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Sword Specialization.
+0.034 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 614. (Critical) <--- WF swing, caused the sword spec proc
+0.035 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 265. <--- sword spec swing

Here's how that looks in the log:

Note the difference. In the first case, two extra attack notifications precede the initial swing. In the second case, there was an extra attack notification, followed immediately by the initial swing, followed by a separate extra attack notification, and then two swings. Thus, we can see that it's possible for one swing to proc both types of attacks (simultaneous, as in the first case), and it's also possible that a Windfury extra attack procs a Sword Specialization attack (consecutive, as in the second case).

More Consecutive Procs

Now that we know these patterns, we can continue searching for different types of consecutive proc occurrences. We find this:

+0.000 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Sword Specialization.
+0.000 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 516. (Critical) <--- caused the sword spec proc
+0.117 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Windfury Attack.
+0.118 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 490. (Critical) <--- sword spec swing, caused the WF proc
+0.384 Vulajin gains Windfury Attack.
+0.387 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 606. (Critical) <--- WF swing

In the log:

Thus, it's obvious that a sword spec swing can cause a Windfury proc.

This one is fascinating:

+0.000 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Windfury Attack.
+0.001 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 514. (Critical) <--- caused the WF proc
+0.070 Vulajin gains Windfury Attack.
+0.104 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Windfury Attack.
+0.104 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 288. <--- WF swing, caused the WF proc
+0.519 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 286. <--- WF swing

From the log:

This is a WF attack proccing off a WF attack. There is no ambiguity here; there are no intervening parries during this log snippet. My preceding regular swing occurred at -1.050, and my next regular swing occurred at +0.987. There's only one way to interpret this.

Finally, the kicker:

+0.000 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Sword Specialization.
+0.001 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 230. <--- caused the sword spec proc
+0.369 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Windfury Attack.
+0.371 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 535. (Critical) <--- sword spec swing, caused the WF proc
+0.552 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Sword Specialization.
+0.553 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 280. <--- WF swing, caused the sword spec proc
+0.553 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 499. (Critical) <--- sword spec swing

This is a melee swing causing a sword spec proc, the resulting sword spec swing causing a Windfury proc, and the resulting Windfury swing causing a second sword spec proc. Here's another case of more than two consecutive procs:

+0.000 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Windfury Attack.
+0.002 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 511. (Critical) <--- caused the WF proc
+0.266 Vulajin gains Windfury Attack.
+0.288 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Windfury Attack.
+0.289 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 270. <--- WF swing, caused the WF proc
+0.692 Vulajin gains 1 extra attacks through Sword Specialization.
+0.693 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 273. <--- WF swing, caused the sword spec proc
+0.891 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 528. (Critical) <--- sword spec swing
+0.983 Vulajin's swing hits Servant of Razelikh for 238. <--- next regular swing

Again, there are no intervening parries. The preceding regular swing is at -1.054, and the next regular swing (included above) is at +0.983. Thus, this can only be interpreted as a case of regular proccing WF proccing WF proccing sword spec.

This is the extent of interesting events that occurred during my hour of testing, but I'd say it's a pretty good amount of interesting stuff. Note that I experienced just over 200 Sword Specialization procs during the course of this testing, but never experienced consecutive sword spec procs. From this, I make the following conclusions:

- Each extra attack proc is an independent event that can occur simultaneously with other extra attack procs on a single attack.
- Windfury Attack procs can proc additional Windfury Attack procs.
- Windfury Attack procs and Sword Specialization procs can proc one another.
- Sword Specialization procs cannot proc additional Sword Specialization procs.
- Consecutive extra attack chains don't have any arbitrary cap on the number of consecutive attacks that can occur.

As always, comments and questions are welcome. Feel free to verify anything yourself through the combat log itself, attached below.

Attached Files

Extra Attack Log.txt (1.37 MB, 38 views)

 

Rosvall

Thumbs up, great research.

 

Maltese

Except your completely ignoring the increased poison proc's from the OH, and with the new poison talents making IP proc deadly, things could get quite intresting. I'm not saying that faster is better than slower, mainly because I havn't done the math, but its obvious that poison dps is going to be much larger than normal with these new trees.

 

drumbum

They are comparing the effect of weapon speed on the mainhand dagger -- not the offhand dagger.

Edit: Unless you're referring to the second order effect of extra energy regen resulting in more frequent Mutilates which can proc offhand poison, but there are also many other factors involved as well. Ultimately it's something a spreadsheet or simulator will have to decide.

 

schoolposting

Hi

My rogue is specced fist right now and i have both badge loot fists with mongoose. Now since today the s2 swords come on for honor i was thinking of picking up the s2 offhand and going MH fist/OH sword spec because on the spreadsheet my dps is higher if i use fist/sword using s2 OH. And i was wondering if that spreadsheet accounts for weapon spec like the sword spec proc and extra crit with fist.

Now the actual OH dps goes down when i switch from the Fist OH to the sword OH but the rough dps goes up. So from that i take it does factor the sword spec.

Also on another thing i'd like some help with is my necklace. I use Saberclaw Talisman right now and the spreadsheet says i'd get more dps from Choker of Vile Intent while i have a mod that shows in game a stat comparison and it says the only thing i'd actually gain from the Choker is hit rating while losing Attack Power and Crit. I'm sitting at 304 hit rating and am only just starting SSC so my hit is good so i dont think it would boost my dps right now. It might would later on when i need more hit rating but atm i dont believe it would.

Also a question on T5. I have been looking at tier 5 and i dont like it. The set bonus' are nice but other then that most of it seems trashy. No hit rating what so ever accept the guants. So me having t4 guants right now the only t5 piece i would actually like is the guants. I have t4 chest and guants for the bonus so if my guild gets to Leo and i get the gaunts would it be better just to have t5 guants and replace my chest piece with the badge loot one and that be the only t5 i get? I have badge loot pants so those are better then t5 and my helm is deathblow x11 which is better then t5 imo.

Also if you want to armory my character heres a link to him. Engore

Thanks.

 

• Aldriana

1) The spreadsheets account for everything you can think of, and some things you can't. They are painstakingly thorough. So yes, they account for the details of the weapon specializations.

2) If the spreadsheet says it does more damage, it does more damage. Yes, you have quite a bit of hit. That doesn't mean more isn't better - at least for bosses. For trash, admittedly, you are up near the cap already, but for bosses, you would do more with Vile Intent.

3) Plug both gear sets into the spreadsheet and see which works out better.

In conclusion: no one here will be giving you answers that aren't just based on the spreadsheet. Hence, save us all a little time and effort and just use the spreadsheet yourself. Thanks.

 

drazoline

My question is would a mut spec be better for the raid group in general because of the ability to stun targets thus makeing the healers job easy when clearing trash. My sequence as a mut spec for trash pulls goes like this,
Cheap shot =2cp, Mutilate=2-3cp, Kidney 60% 1cp, if i get the 1 cp then i SnD if not another mut followed by SnD.
Usually by this time the mob is dead or close to it, i might be able to get 1 or 2 more muts off and pop Snd agian so when we move into the next mob I have the increase in attack speed. Being a mut spec I will geterate 4-5 cps in 2 specials and kidney will be up agian makeing the trash clearing faster by reduceing the mana useage of the healers.
Am I wasteing my time with this or is raw DPS better over all.

As a side note my guild only raids Kara as we are not a major raiding guild so any info on raid progresion with rogues
will help. I plan to raid more with other guilds in the future witch is what has caused me to research my rogue to maximize my dps and be more effective in raiding. Currently with my spec I am always in the top 3 for dps in my guild
and top 2 for total damage done on raids.

 

Eyegore

In Kara this can work, as you have personally seen. You should note however that should said mob not be "about dead" when he comes out of stun he will promptly run after a dps since they have been burning it down, and the mob has been stunned, and thus you tank has not gotten any rage from damage to hold aggro with. Should the mob be tauntable that may not be a problem, this is not always the case however. I know personally I find it quite annoying when a mob gets stunned right off that I am trying to tank, as it cripples my ability to do my job.

As you move into 25 mans stunlocking stuff to death will become less viable, as the raid scales up so do the mobs with which you are faced. And you should find that you would be better served with a more conventional tank n spank strategy, as the consequences of something getting lose can be more severe (even should you find that the mobs are just not stun immune).

Additionally you should probably stop and consider whether issues that only come into play on trash are really what you want to base your spec on. Certainly trash matters, you want to get through it cleanly and efficiently, but you want to do so to get to the bosses which are the real goal. If you find that you have enough trouble with trash that it matters what spec you are what must the boss fights be like? Personally I would think speccing as best you can for bosses, where the real challenge should be, and limiting trash considerations to questions such as gemming over the trash hit cap or swapping gear for trash, would be a better idea.

If you move out of 5/10 mans this should become more clear.

*edit* I should probably qualify this to say that I would personally love this to be a good argument in favor of mutilate. I have finally given in and gone mutilate on my rogue alt, for good I think, despite the performance hit, because being an alt rather than my main I can go with what I find more fun and not worry about it too much. If I was a rouge in a main raiding spot at present I do not think I could feel justified in doing so however.

 

Hemonology

Now I know we have all read the Hemo. v.s. Combat Sword spec and Hemo. v.s. Point of Inflection threads.In the same breath though,since this is a spec/class thread it seems pertinent that I add it here.The cookie cutter PvE Sword Hemo. build is 11/28/22,the main area(s) of concern for your assassination tree being Malice 5/5,Murder 2/2,3/3 Ruthlessness,and any good sword Hemo. build needs 1/1 Relentless Strikes.Now on to your combat tree,some of these points are where it gets foggy,but ill stick to the essentials,5/5 DW Specialization,5/5 Sword Specilization,1/1 Blade Flurry,and 2/2 Expertise.Last but not least Subtlety,again essentials,3/3 serrated blades,1/1 Hemo.,and 1/2 Dirty deeds.Now,onto my argument since that has been worked out.What if...You did a high deadliness augmented by combat for the added off-hand dps. and blade flurry,and since the deadliness/sinister calling adds 15%agi. and 10% total ap. would your overall dps would account for the sword specialization?Then again account for the master of subtlety buff 10% increased dmg for 6 secs after stealth. so your tree would go like this - Deadliness Deadly TreeOr,a hybrid of the cookie cutter hemo build where it relies on heavy dirty deeds for the 20% dmg buff instead of the 5 added expertise so you build goes like this: Dirty Dirty Tree

 

Ricard

People went over both those builds when hemo became useful, and it was found that both of those are lower than your standard tri-spec hemo build in personal DPS (which means lower raid DPS, too, as your alternate specs don't add anything to the raid).

 

Ashere

Relentless Strikes is about as strong a DPS talent as DW is, so no, you don't want to drop it. It's also the only energy regen you have, keeping up a good cycle is going to be very hard without it. You'd probably end up with something like a 5s/3r cycle.
Sinister Calling is a nice talent to have, which just might compensate for missing out on Sword spec, though probably it won't.
But, you're also trading away
-2 points of Weapon Expertise here, with only 1 extra point in Dirty Deeds to compensate for it. And Dirty Deeds isn't as strong as WE in the first place.
-Malice (5% DPS)
-Murder (just a filler talent, but still 2% DPS against certain mobs)
-Ruthlessness (~3% DPS)
while gaining:
-Preperation, a great talent, but it's basically no DPS.
-Premeditation, but it's only usefull on your openers, so you can't call that a DPS talent either.
-Master of Subtlety which is also only usefull on openers and the first few seconds after, so it's not really a DPS talent either (though it will be more viable in WotLK if the Shadowdance talent gets through)

So what I'm basically saying is: 11/28/22 was developed like it is simply because it's the best option. But in case you don't have swords, you can simply get the "deadliness" version. It's not as good, but close enough to be called viable (depending on gear though). It's an 11/21/29 build, has no weapon specializations, no weapon expertise, but instead 2 points in Dirty Deeds, Prep, and 4 points in Deadliness.

 

• Neto-

The results of the WF and Sword Spec procs research are really interesting. Time to take the dust out of your ToAs and go test :P

 

Solex

As stated way back in the first page and to throw things for a loop I guess, I think that rogues should have a group buff that encourage rotation, such as snd providing the rogue's group with 5% haste or something to that effect or adding an increased physical or bleed damage to the group.

 

Luuca

Thank you, Vulajin, for the great research work. I have a question I couldn’t answer for myself.

With this long-suspected sequencing and proc-feeding-proc now proven due to excellent field work, what value would a “Chance on hit: Grants an extra attack on your next swing.” proc bring to this equation? Currently available on Blinkstrike

Given these factors; Sword Spec rogue, WF totem:
Would the occurrence of this proc and the possibility of it triggering WF or SS make this or any weapon with this chance on hit, more desirable for the longish boss fights than a higher DpS weapon without out the chance for an extra attack?

I tried to work this out on both of the old Dps Spreadsheets, but neither one listed Blinkstrike, and I couldn't figure out how to add in the chance on hit extra attack using “unmodeled” sword

This point may be mute, due to the current availability of many much higher DpS weapons; however, with WotLK around the corner, new and better gear may contain this same chance/proc. Having done the basic homework now while we are on ezmode may help out with post-Xpac gear selection.

 

• Aldriana

I remember having done some estimates on Blinkstrike back in the day and concluded that while it was a nice preraid sword, it became quickly obsolete due to it's low damage level. With this new information I think it would improve somewhat, but I doubt it improves enough to justify using it over a sword that's 10 DPS higher. But if someone that has one would like to do a Blasted Lands (or Ogre) test to figure out it's proc rules relative to Sword Spec and Windfury, I'll throw it into RogueCalc.

 

Luuca

I tried to research and see if and or how many other swords/daggers/maces/fists actually have this chance on hit.. from what I can tell, it looks like its just Blinkstrike at this time. (Corrections welcomed)

If this proc is this limited in its placement by Blizzard, it may not be worth the hour of testing and adjustments to the spreadsheets. I would like to think that, given the apparent buffs coming for Assassination and Sub for raiding, a proc like this on a high end, strictly PvE drop sword would go along way to keep swords an attractive option.

Not to backtrack or speculate needlessly, but with our role as primary Dps being now shared by classes that bring more raid support to the table, any small edge (like this) is welcomed.

 

• Neto-

I think it's safe to say that it won't compare to the 100+ DPS weapons but it would be nice to have the data. Though it will suck to dump gold on that >.>

 

• Aldriana

I'm not sure if it's exactly the same proc, but it is similar to the proc on Thrash Blade back in the day. Not to mention Ironfoe and Flurry Axe. So it is a proc that they've used a couple of times, and thus it's not unreasonable to assume that they may use it again at some point.

 

sashone

I believe this is the proper place to post this question but let me know if I'm wrong-

Last night I bought Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery for my OH of course while using Spiteblade in MH. I specd 5/5 sword and 5/5 fist, but the 5% crit doesn't show up on my stats. Do I still get the crit and it just doesn't show? Or am I retarded and need to get my badges refunded? Thanks.

 

• Aldriana

The character screen reports your MH crit rate; since Fist spec is only affecting your OH, it would not show up on your character sheet.

 

• Vulajin

I'll think about implementing [Blinkstrike] in Roguecraft, but yeah, I don't have a good idea of how it works and I don't have one to test it. I can only assume that it functions like sword spec, proccing off other extra attacks but not itself. If anyone can take one out to Blasted Lands and do a test similar to the one I performed for sword spec and WF, that'd be fantastic.

 

sashone

Could you elaborate please?

 

• Vulajin

Fist spec only affects your off hand because only your off hand is a fist. Your main hand is a sword. The character sheet only displays your main hand crit rate, so it won't display the 5% crit bonus that your off hand is getting.

 

sashone

Gotcha.

Will using a Fist MH / Sword OH yield better results than Sword MH / Fist OH? Sorry if this has been posted, theres so much information on this site and I'm a little pushed for time atm.