PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 201

Zujamar · 10/04/08, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ena.the.rogue

By accessibility, I mean how easy is it for the raid members to benefit from your buff. I think there's no question that shaman wins hands down. This is because the shaman buffs the raid members, instead of debuffing the boss. One shaman totem will allow everyone to have the bonus crit even when there are multiple mobs to be tanked, and if I understand correctly, they also buff healers to have +3% crit for their heals.

It's not quite this straightforward - totems do have a finite range, so in fights with great distances between players (say, Archimonde), a boss debuff would be more accessible. In an encounter with multiple targets, yes, Totem of Wrath has a clear advantage, but only if you assume the targets are all positioned close to eachother (think Al'ar phase 1 with nontrivial adds). Depending how min/max you want to go, it strikes me as very reasonable to have both the Shaman and the Paladin versions of it available for every raid. Ironically enough, I'm not so clear on Rogues on that matter.

PSGarak · 10/04/08, 3:15 PM

I was under the impression that Totem of Wrath was also a boss debuff. I could be totally off-base here, but I thought in order to make it non stack properly with Heart of the Crusader and Master Poisoner, the totem has an offensive aura placing a debuff on all enemies in 40 yards. This actually has a two-edge effect on mobility and uptime. For fights with a small amount of moving, they drop the totem near the center of where the boss is going to be around and it's ok, while melee classes would have to jump around a bit. For fights with large (ie 40+) movement, it's easier for the melee to stay on the boss's butt than the comparatively stationary caster.

Opportunity Cost of casting is negligible for a shaman, since ToW also has the same effect as the other fire totem it replaces (spellpower, flametongue). I am currently unaware of the opportunity cost of specing into the totem.

sp00n · 10/04/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Xerop

I had some issues with the rotation though but I suspect that me not having the SnD and Rupture Glyphs caused this, and that having those 2 would greatly smooth the rotation.
How are your experiences with the Glyphs?

The SnD glyph is pretty mandatory and certainly helps not losing SnD uptime. Although most time I refreshed it even before reaching those 3 extra seconds.
With the Rupture glyph however I see serious issues incoming. Those 4/5/6 (how much is it now exactly?) seconds may cause some severe clipping issues. Already now without it, I had to use a Mutilate while already being at 4CP to not waste energy, because I Rupture was still running, my energy nearing 100, and my cycle just had started. With 4 more seconds on Rupture, I feel that there will be even more 'wasted' Mutilates. Or another cycle.

Yarema · 10/04/08, 3:35 PM

Any elemental shaman will spec ToW, even if you ignore the increased crit percentage it still provides almost twice as much spellpower as flametongue. Also totems last 5 minutes now, so mana cost is minimal.

sp00n · 10/04/08, 4:21 PM

With the StasisCl logs now available for my testing, both Mutilate and Combat, I can now 'simulate' an active Prey on the Weak and recalculate the DPS, which was 1921 without this talent being active.

According to Vulajin's Roguecraft Spreadsheet, the modifier for crits without the talent is 2.06 (due to Relentless Eearthstorm Diamond), and with PotW it is 2.47. Therefore I think it is sufficient - for each damaging attack - to take the number of crits, multiply it by its average damage, divide it by 2.06 and then again multiply it 2.47 to receive the expected damage for an active PotW. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Doing so nets me the following numbers. Basis is the testing done here and the according StatisCl report.

	Hit Damage	Crit Damage	Added	Diff to real	Adj Crit Dmg
Melee	831453	1274826	2106279	1205	1528554
Sinister Strike	440648	712368	1153016	683	854150
Eviscerate	72240	100862	173102	41	120936
Killing Spree MH	29574	36832	66406	51	44163
Killing Spree OH	13948	26896	40844	29	32249
Instant Poison VII	185640	43416	229056	397	52057

Total	1573503	2195200	3768703	2406	2632109

IP is affected
Dmg plus	436909
New total Dmg	4660642
New DPS	2121.37

IP not affected
Dmg plus	428268
New total Dmg	4652001
New DPS	2117.43

So the adjusted DPS becomes 2121 or 2117, up from 1921, depending on whether Instant Poison is affected by PotW or not. Much closer to the Mutilate build with its 2186 DPS, and Combat still has Precision as well as Weapon Expertise as wasted talents for this type of mob, as I'm already hit and expertise capped without them.

Of course there is some margin for error in this adjustment. First, you can see that the damage calculated form hits*avg_hit and crits*avg_crit doesn't exactly match with the actual damage numbers. Second, adjusting the damage with dmg/2.06*2.47 leaves us with decimal places, which are rounded in the game. And third, I'm not 100% sure if Instant Poison is affected by PotW. The sheet seems to suggest it is not.

bueller · 10/04/08, 7:41 PM

Hello,
i was simply wondering whether somebody who is in beta and is level 80 has actually tried out a Combat Dagger spec like 19/50/2 (with Vile Poisons).
The hugely increased gain of energy combined with Lethality and Prey on the Weak and the usually high crit rating for Backstabs should buff Combat Daggers significantly, or not?

Octaviann · 10/04/08, 8:02 PM

I'm not in the beta, but I'm going to tend towards thinking that the increases you gain from speccing 19/50/2 don't make up for your loss of Relentless Strikes. Thus, since 13/50/7+1 isn't as good as sinister strike combat or mutilate, I'm going to guess that 19/50/2 is even worse. Try a spreadsheet for a better evaluation. Overall, I think the answer is going to be that combat (some variation on 15/51/5) is the best for non-daggers, and that Mutilate (51/13/7 or some variant thereof) is going to be the best spec for daggers.

Of course, if somebody on the beta tries it out and proves me wrong, that's okay too.

bueller · 10/04/08, 8:17 PM

Is Relentless Strikes really that important anymore in a raid environment?
The new Vitality and 20% haste from a shaman should keep your energy gain really high.
And as we all now in TBC Combat Daggers were a few % behind Combat Swords, but its damage came much more from yellow attacks than it was the case with swords.
Now they add another crit enhance talent with Prey on the Weak and the energy gain raises by a lot, can't see it being behind swords really at the moment.
Edit: So somebody did actually try out Combat Daggers on a raid boss with raid buffs (the slighty different spec doesnt matter that much imho), or was it on a dummy where PotW doesnt count at all?

Skwerl · 10/04/08, 9:18 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

17 is the base chance to resist against a +3 mob; 26.23... is the number of points of hit rating required for 1% spell hit - see this thread for all the conversions. Also note that the Draenei racial aura will also affect the amount of hit needed.

However, it should be mentioned that the yellow hit cap is not a "magic number" of any sort - hit is worth more below it, and less above it, but it's by no means a case of needing to sacrifice anything and everything to get. Items with hit on them will be worth more below that number, so you may find yourself selecting hit-heavier gear; but you still want to follow EP values for selecting gear and gems. Even below the poison hit cap, Hit Rating is not currently believed to be more than the 3rd-best stat for either Assassination or Combat (behind Agi and AP in both cases, by my best estimates).

would it be safe to assume that even Crit is more important than hit given the easy accessibility right now (we're talking 3.0 of course) for hit gear for FA procs, and maybe even haste for the possibility of more FA procs? This is given you have reached a safe number for the "hit cap"

• Aldriana · 10/04/08, 9:56 PM

Originally Posted by bueller

Is Relentless Strikes really that important anymore in a raid environment?
The new Vitality and 20% haste from a shaman should keep your energy gain really high.

So? It's true, Vitality and CP give high energy regeneration - but energy is not the sort of thing that you can really have "enough" of. More is virtually always better. Since Relentless Strikes still gives a reasonable quantity of energy, it is thus still a very solid talent option for all builds that have been tested so far. It's perhaps a bit less valuable for Combat Daggers than it is for Mutilate or Combat Swords, but it is still reasonably likely to be worthwhile.

That said, Combat Daggers really doesn't have the points to get all the talents it wants - ideally, you'd want 7 points in Subtlety, 51 in Combat, and up to Lethality with as many of the other early points as you can get in Assassination, which works out to a bare minimum of 73 points, which is more than you can get. The question, then, is where to cut, and it's not a given that Relentless Strikes is going to be something you can afford to keep. My guess would be that the points come out of either Lethality or Relentless Strikes, leaving 13/51/7 or 15/51/5, but experimentation would be needed to figure out which. That said, all variants on it will likely be pretty close in damage, so the fact that the existing ones aren't as good as the Mutilate and Fist/Sword builds strikes me as indicative that it's unlikely to compete. But, of course, once the talent + itemization options settle down, we'll have to reevaluate.

Originally Posted by Skwerl

would it be safe to assume that even Crit is more important than hit given the easy accessibility right now (we're talking 3.0 of course) for hit gear for FA procs, and maybe even haste for the possibility of more FA procs? This is given you have reached a safe number for the "hit cap"

I'm reluctant to make any such generalization, purely because "safe assumptions" have a bad habit of turning into "widespread myths". So all I will say is that in my estimates for level 80 gear of Mutilate builds, I have found Agi and AP to be the strongest stats, and that ArPen is the weakest; the rest are somewhat challenging to rank in a general sence. If you want an answer more detailed than that, I suggest a spreadsheet.

Oshar · 10/04/08, 10:33 PM

So, *did* anybody test daggers in a raid environment?
Besides that RS was for me, besides its obvious constant energy delivering factor, a last straw to keep me going when Ruthlessness did not proc.
As that it will not be needed that much anymore since the natural energy regeneration rate will be higher and you wont be as likely 'falling into a hole' with your energy or your combat circle if Ruthlessness doesnt proc.
So, if the pure damage from backstabbing with a well rounded spec outweighs the damage from energy gained from RS it might work out.
Also, as you slightly mentioned, RS might not be that important for daggers with less finishers anyways.
And, is the 51 point talent any good for dagger users?
But, as you have already mentioned, time might change things or not, we will have to see.
Edit:Ops, other name, changed HD and new name didnt work, so went back to old HD, got PW, now new one suddenly worked.
However, i still see a chance for combat daggers to deliver the damage.Does not help them much on trash though.

Wodahs · 10/04/08, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

So? It's true, Vitality and CP give high energy regeneration - but energy is not the sort of thing that you can really have "enough" of. More is virtually always better. Since Relentless Strikes still gives a reasonable quantity of energy, it is thus still a very solid talent option for all builds that have been tested so far. It's perhaps a bit less valuable for Combat Daggers than it is for Mutilate or Combat Swords, but it is still reasonably likely to be worthwhile.

That said, Combat Daggers really doesn't have the points to get all the talents it wants - ideally, you'd want 7 points in Subtlety, 51 in Combat, and up to Lethality with as many of the other early points as you can get in Assassination, which works out to a bare minimum of 73 points, which is more than you can get. The question, then, is where to cut, and it's not a given that Relentless Strikes is going to be something you can afford to keep. My guess would be that the points come out of either Lethality or Relentless Strikes, leaving 13/51/7 or 15/51/5, but experimentation would be needed to figure out which. That said, all variants on it will likely be pretty close in damage, so the fact that the existing ones aren't as good as the Mutilate and Fist/Sword builds strikes me as indicative that it's unlikely to compete. But, of course, once the talent + itemization options settle down, we'll have to reevaluate.

I'm reluctant to make any such generalization, purely because "safe assumptions" have a bad habit of turning into "widespread myths". So all I will say is that in my estimates for level 80 gear of Mutilate builds, I have found Agi and AP to be the strongest stats, and that ArPen is the weakest; the rest are somewhat challenging to rank in a general sence. If you want an answer more detailed than that, I suggest a spreadsheet.

I would love to see Blizz allow for a combat dagger spec that has the top tier combat talent, full opportunity, relentless, and lethality. I cant understand why this is still happening. It started with the rogue revamp in retail wow, continued in tbc, and will go on in wotlk. When I heard opportunity was dropping to 2 points, I was happy, when I heard blizz was making relentless strikes 'more accessible', I was ecstatic. Yet now, I need 15/51/7 to get opp/relentless/lethality on a combat dagger build. Is it really an issue of being an overpowered combination, or somethign else?

• Aldriana · 10/05/08, 12:23 AM

I don't think 15/51/7 would be particularly overpowered, but the talent point reductions to allow it might make some *other* specs a little too good. Pretty much any change you could make is a pretty decent buff to one of the more conventional specs. And frankly, I don't think it's a priority for them - there's a good daggers spec, and a good combat spec, and if they can get them well balanced it'll be more choice than we've ever had before. I don't see that they particularly care whether combat daggers, per se, is good; because even if they do want a good Backstab-based spec, current indications are that they're looking more towards Subtlety to do so. I think that's behind at the moment as well, but as subtlety has received less tuning and affects the other specs less, that's where I'd more expect to see changes made.

Skwerl · 10/05/08, 1:19 AM

Originally Posted by saedo

I think it's more like:

For level 80s.

Spell Hit Cap: 17% x 26.23199272 = 446
With Precision: 12% x 26.23199272 = 315
With Precision and Imp FF or Misery: 9% x 26.23199272 = 237
With Precision and Imp FF or Misery and Draenei: 8% x 26.23199272 = 210

For level 70s.

Spell Hit Cap: 17% x 12.61538506 = 215
With Precision: 12% x 12.61538506 = 152
With Precision and Imp FF or Misery: 9% x 12.61538506 = 114
With Precision and Imp FF or Misery and Draenei: 8% x 12.61538506 = 101

Edit: Added Draenei and Level 70 info

Here's another thought on this, sorry to dwell a little, but isn't the cap technically 99% since there's always a 1% chance to miss/resist on a boss? Or was this removed with the upcoming patch on the 14th? If that's right then it would make the maximum effective hit cap 16%, right?

So we'd be looking at:
Spell Hit Cap: 16% x 12.6153806 = 200
Totem of Wrath: 13% x 12.6153806 = 164
ToW with Imp FF/Misery: 10% x 12.6153806 = 126
ToW with Imp FF/Misery with Draenei: 9% x 12.6153806 = 114

I didn't include Precision because 51/5/5 Mutilate doesn't include it at level 70 which is all I'm worrying about at this moment.

Xaoc · 10/05/08, 1:41 AM

They removed the 1% resist chance for spells awhile ago.