PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 21

Kreoss · 06/15/08, 4:31 PM

All I see there is the talent abilities.

Anyone can tell me what the New spells are? It seems Fan of Knifes is one of them, but and what are the other among those?

Professor Hurt · 06/15/08, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Kreoss

All I see there is the talent abilities.

Anyone can tell me what the New spells are? It seems Fan of Knifes is one of them, but and what are the other among those?

Read back a few pages, you'll find them.

tessarji · 06/15/08, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by hannigaholic

I've done some brief napkinmaths, adding values to the results I get from the existing sreadsheets, just too get a very rough idea of how the new talents might pan out. Murder Spree adds 5 Mutilate-style abilities every 2 minutes; that's 1/24th of an attack per second with both weapons, adding (assuming it's weapon speed normalised) adding AP/14*2.4 per hit. For my gear this worked out as about 60dps, which was almost 4% of my current dps.

It would be nice if it worked that way, but I predict it will turn off autoattack for the spree period and also reset your swing timer. Therefore, while you are getting your free attacks you're losing white damage.

If a spree takes 2.5 seconds and you lose about 1s of swing timers, you've lose about 2 MH attacks and 3 OH attacks, and gain 5 MH attacks and 5 OH attacks. In other words I think the actual value to your DPS will be about half that.

hannigaholic · 06/15/08, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by tessarji

It would be nice if it worked that way, but I predict it will turn off autoattack for the spree period and also reset your swing timer. Therefore, while you are getting your free attacks you're losing white damage.

If a spree takes 2.5 seconds and you lose about 1s of swing timers, you've lose about 2 MH attacks and 3 OH attacks, and gain 5 MH attacks and 5 OH attacks. In other words I think the actual value to your DPS will be about half that.

Very true - I hope it doesn't work that way but you're right that if it does, the talent becomes devalued.

Kreoss · 06/15/08, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Hurt

Read back a few pages, you'll find them.

I did, but it still doesn't separates Talent abilities from new Spells.

That or I just don't get it. Can't find it on other websites on a clear way too.

Vodrin · 06/15/08, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by hannigaholic

Looking at the Assassination tree, Cut to the Chase seems really poor for an investment of 5 talent points. With a 30% critrate it can't be relied upon to refresh SnD, and because of that you won't even necessarily be using Evisc or Envenom in your regular cycle. I don't see any reason why 4-5s/4-5r isn't likely to still be the normal Mutilate cycle. Focused Attacks, assuming the 1 crit per second that Aldriana posted, means that you wouldn't even be generating enough energy for 1 extra Mutilate per minute. 5 extra mutilates in a 5-minute fight, really isn't going to add a lot to your 250,000+ damage already done.

Hunger For Blood looks far too costly to be worthwhile. 90 energy for 15% dps increase, then 3 energy per second for the rest of the fight. That's 3 lost Mutilates per minute, instantly negating any gain made from Cut to the Chase for a 15% dps boost on what's left. It's probably worth it to use it if you've taken it, but it seems to me that the other talents you could take (Blade Flurry and Opportuinity) seem to overwhelm the gain made fromtaking 51 points in the Assassination tree.

The heavily buffed eviscerate numbers on the current alpha;

r10: 985-1105
r12: 1977-2231

It may now be quite a competitive finisher.

Hunger For Blood can be stacked up before pulling the boss, and i think 180 energy a minute is worth a 15% gain in dps, less if you have a bleed/magic debuff.

PSGarak · 06/15/08, 6:16 PM

Are those numbers base damage or after attack power contribution? Do rogue abilities suffer a downrank penalty like spells?

• Aldriana · 06/15/08, 6:19 PM

Last I checked it's not even possible to downrank as a rogue - when you get ability level n+1, it replaces ability level n in your spellbook. Not that I can imagine any reason for wanting to downrank - the whole point of doing so is mana conservation, and since they all cost the same amount of energy, it would just be doing less damage for no reason.

My understanding is that the base damage on Eviscerate has been buffed somewhat, but the major change is that it scales a lot better with AP than it does currently. Don't know if that's true or not, but that's the rumor I've heard.

madman · 06/15/08, 7:05 PM

I have a question about how the average differences between the damage output of different specs were calculated.

Sword/sword, fist/sword, and mace/sword builds are all within roughly 1% of one another in terms of theoretical DPS output, assuming equivalent weapons. Pure fist, mace, and dagger combat builds fall roughly 1-2% behind the sword hybrid builds

From this, I gather that Combat Dagger would be 1-3% behind Combat Swords. I used the spreadsheet and the standard Combat Daggers and Combat Swords (2xsword) builds. To utilize similar weapons I used the S2 Daggers and S2 Swords. The DPS of swords I get is 5.06% higher than daggers with my gear.

I really like daggers better as weapons, and in playing style, but if the difference turns out to be above 5%, and not the 1-3% I had assumed from the Rogue PvE article, I am really considering to switch to swords.

• Aldriana · 06/15/08, 7:22 PM

I can't speak to exactly where those numbers come from, but it should be noted that the relative value of these specs depend heavily on your gear level and exactly what buffs you have. If you have your typical buffs and gear in the spreadsheet, and it shows you 5% behind, that's probably the number you want to go with.

madman · 06/15/08, 7:35 PM

Yeah, I assume the spreadsheet is correct. I used a fresh sheet with default settings for everything including buffs, imported myself, and changed nothing but the weapons and the standard sword and dagger builds. My gear is, as you can see, T4/T5 with some 2.4 badge rewards.

I did the same with your profile. I used S3 swords and daggers just because they're higher level items. You come out with 4.43% better DPS with swords compared to daggers.

So it seems that the article underestimates the difference, if the arena weapons are a good measure. The arena ones are probably the best we can find for comparison, I guess. How this turns out with sword/fists, combat maces, combat fists etc would have to be research before changing the article though.

Kreoss · 06/15/08, 7:57 PM

Ok, after reading some sites and some pages here. STILL don't understand how many Rogue spells outside the talents are discovered yet.

By the way, how many are we suppused to get? New abilities out of the talents? 3?

♦ s4dfish · 06/15/08, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kreoss

By the way, how many are we suppused to get? New abilities out of the talents? 3?

We're still in Alpha, no clue what's planned or if what's been leaked will actually make live.

Kreoss · 06/15/08, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by s4dfish

We're still in Alpha, no clue what's planned or if what's been leaked will actually make live.

Ye, you're right, but judging by how many came with TBC and how many are in the other classes alpha we could have an ideia.

Shaker · 06/16/08, 1:14 AM

By the way, many people are overestimating Prey on the Weak, because they're missing the part where it increases your crit bonus on WHITE ATTACKS ONLY. This is pretty key to understanding the talent. My estimation on lvl 70 numbers is 15% more damage on 40% (crit rate, reasonably high end) of 60% of your damage (yellow/white ratio), with a 75% uptime. This comes out to 2.25% more damage for the 5/5 talent, which at 2000 dps, is 9 DPS per talent point. That's fairly underwhelming given that the other talents leading up to the 51 point talent are pvp filler.