I tossed my PvP build(16/0/45) into the spreadsheet and it suggests a 5r cycle. Doesn't seem right, what are your thoughts?

Edit: I should add that this is with no raid buffs.

Eh, that build has Serrated Blades and lacks Dual Wield Specialization/Precision/Combat Potency/Sword Spec, seems pretty reasonable to me.

Okay, I just edited but after I added raid buffs and what not, the cycle changed to 3s/5s/5r.

This is correct, buffs such as Windfury Totem and attack power buffs will increase the benefit from Slice and Dice.

I was hoping to get back to the discussion about the direction of rogues in WotLK. I doubt rogues will ever get a true "raid buff," but I think the below would add a feeling of responsibility to rogue raiding. (The sense of resonsibility I rolled a warrior to feed, but then I came back to the rogue because... its my first love.)

[Thief's Honor]

You attempt to protect target ally by drawing off attacks and dodging or parrying them.
15 second duration

10 minute cooldown

What this ability would do is have all attacks targeted at {target ally} roll against your avoidance first. If this roll yields a dodge or a parry, the attack will target the rogue instead of {target ally} and be dodged or parried.


This would be an ability to use when your tank is either taking too much damage from many mobs, or is getting low and healers need some relief to top him off.

As a balance issue, it may be best to have it inflict a debuff on {target ally} which prevent him from receiving the buff for X minutes.



Another suggestion:

[Smoke Screen]

Throws a smoke bomb at target location which creates a smoke screen with a 4 yard radius. Players within the smoke screen will generate only 50% of their normal threat. Smoke Screen dissipates after 10 seconds

20 yard range

3 minute cooldown

I'd love for bosses to be susceptible to daze. Blade twisting is easy to get in combat and it would be a surefire buff to hunters and somewhat of a buff to warriors, especially prot warriors. It could also be situationally valuable. It would also affect pvp minimally as combat at the moment looks to be the weakest pvp spec.

I think you're missing the point, which is that while dazed, Heroic Strike and Steady Shot both do bonus damage.

Heroic is not used often by warriors anyway, so you are benefiting hunters only while possibly allowing bosses to be kited, and thus allowing numerous exploits, kiting and generally changing a integral part of wow. Which is "Boss mobs are immune to roots and snares." Should that change, welcome to Frost mages wanting freezable bosses...

Too much hassle for too little benefit.

Well, I think the original concept was that the daze mechanic wouldn't snare bosses, but you're still missing that hunters Steady all the time, and tanks especially use heroic strike a LOT, so this would increase tank TPS.

Also, you must've missed the part where the new Frost Talents have a debuff in them that makes the boss frozen (but not rooted).

edit: Removed because I fail at reading WWS -_-

WWS counts landed swings as being the total of those which hit or glance, and counts crits separately. This was accounted for in his post and in all of my earlier posts, as well as in the work done by others. So no, additional testing is not particularly warranted other than to confirm the rare circumstances under which WF can proc itself.

First... why your post shouldn't be here
Second...what you should spend more time reading

Finally, get 4/5 Vile poisons, drop blade twisting and 2 points of lightning reflexes to do it. I'd also suggest 2/2 in improved sprint or don't bother.

I deleted this in the other thread and reposted here, a maybe better place for it:

A while ago we were wondering about the vile vs improved poisons in our guild and I tried to calculate what was better. Let's say that trying to get a figure on deadly poison dmg is a bit hard, at least for me but when testing, I did some discovery which seems weird to me.

I've been bashing some servants in Blasted while specced 4/5 vile and 4/5 improved and I decided to also test deadly on MH and on OH, not together but two seperate tests with each different spec. Now, the time I tested is rather short, I admit that; 600s on mob, but I seem to come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter at all if you have deadly on mainhand or on offhand to keep stacks up.

These are the test data:

4/5 vile (DP)

MH: 40205dmg - 165 ticks (244 average dmg) - dot uptime: 495
OH: 39887dmg - 159 ticks (251 avarage dmg) - dot uptime: 477

4/5 imp (DP)

MH: 36159dmg - 165 ticks (219 average dmg) - dot uptime: 489
OH: 37259dmg - 166 ticks (224 average dmg) - dot uptime: 498

I'm using the badge fists, 8% static haste and the only thing I do there is SS my energy and keep S&D up, nothing else.
I never use deadly MH if there is WF ofc.
I might be wrong in something but to me it seems that keeping DP stacks up is as easy with MH as it is with OH and in that, not matter at all, but when using both poisons, the best dmg comes from the opposite of what we always did.
DP - MH, IP - OH.

D.

I don't have anything against some sort of party buff,crit,haste, etc
but i rolled my rogue to do damage & thats what i want to do.
If Blizz would add more additional opponents to our Blade Flurry attack, i think it would solve alot for raiding rogues.

PVP being a raiding rogues worst enemy, i tried to think of a damage increase that wouldn't turn the forums into a cryfest for other classes.
Hitting additional opponents with Blade Flurry seems like a great way to do that..
Agro might be a problem...but we still have evasion & vanish.

Keep in mind, you're SSing your energy, like you said. That means you'll be attacking more often with you MH than you would otherwise.

Ye, he may be SSing energy, but lets face it, Rupture is basically free with Relentless, and BF and AR are both actually boosting your MH strikes even though they spend energy.

So ye, I'd say that MH DP would be better, however I put it on OH for convenience due to sometimes group setup changing and you get a WF, then next sec you don't... so you can switch fairly easy with applying 1 poison instead of 2.

Also, one additional reason why DP on OH, would be speed of OH, which should be fast usually... and why is it fast? For faster application of DP and more procs off Potency.

A while back I did check with the gear and dps sheets to try to get some idea which poison on which hand was optimal, and as I recall the sheets also agreed that deadly on the mainhand was slightly (very slightly) better. I didn't save any numbers but I can say it was a dps difference so small I never bothered to change poisons if there was any chance I would get WF at any point. As mentioned if you get WF then you want DP on the OH anyway.

Although my rogue is mutilate now with 2 slow daggers and a primary attack that hits with both hands... so it's even less of an issue for me than it was when I was combat.

I agree the differences are marginal but when switching IP to the OH, it becomes not so marginal. Applying IP at 1.8 or 1.1 speed makes a rather big difference (on poison dmg), you'd have on average about 49 procs more in 10 minutes with a vile spec. I run like this nowadays, it took some time to get out of the routine of automatically applying DP to the OH but it pays off when there is no WF.

If you were only auto attacking the difference in poison damage might be noticeable, but your mainhand is also landing sinister strikes and sword spec attacks. This closes the discrepancy in landed hits between the two hands pretty significantly.

In the default gear in the current DPS sheet I find that it is reporting a dps loss changing deadly to the mainhand over the reverse, this was not the case when I checked for the gear I had when I checked a while ago. So either the modeling has changed enough to change that, or it is gear dependent, but either way in the default gear the dps change is 0.46 dps or 0.03%. Either way it is about a 6% loss over WF, for a little perspective.

Not that is not a good idea to check for yourself/your gear and put poisons on what hand you think will give you the most dps. But the difference is well under the reasonable expected accuracy of any spreadsheet, not to mention WAY under the random dps swings you would see on any fight anyway just due to luck. I personally wouldn't stress over it.

Question hope it goes here, in terms of squeaking out every last drop of dps how are flame caps being cycled if I am also using thistle tea?

Thistle Tea triggers a 2-minute shared cooldown for Flame Caps and Healthstones and a 5-minute cooldown on itself when you use it. Flame Cap triggers the same 2-minute shared cooldown and its own 3-minute cooldown. So use Tea, then Flame Cap 2 minutes later, then Tea again 3 minutes later, repeat.

Yes, the offhand has more autoattacks than the mainhand, but that's all the offhand has. The mainhand also has Sinister Strike and Sword Specialization procs. When everything is accounted for, the mainhand procs at about the same rate at the offhand. That's why you see almost no difference in Instant Poison or Deadly Poison procrate when you swap the two poisons between hands.

If you want to see this tested yourself, then you should repeat your tests but this time around just use Instant Poison on mainhand and then later on offhand and see how the damage compares. (Using SS is required of course.) You won't see a very large discrepancy -- certainly not close to 4.9 procs per minute.