Luuca

Good day sir.

 

Draxon

You are right, I did some bashing in Blasted with IP main and IP offhand and the results are close enough to decide there is hardly any difference at all. I only calculated the white attacks and forgot the yellows, my mistake. It would not make much difference as long as the energy is only spend at sinister and rupture.
I've been checking it in the gearsheet and there it gives a slightly better dps value for DP main and IP offhand.

Thanks for the responses.

 

Luuca

BF is a fairly strong talent for a one-point buy. I don’t believe Blizz needs to do anything to BF except to let it damage Shaman totems again. Taking that away was brutal.

The solution will probably take the form of a side effect of a 51 point talent/attack, similar to the Mutilate damage being increased by 50% on poisoned targets

I like the idea of something along the lines of a special attack at 51 points in the Combat Tree that produces significant damage, and a boss debuff for raid-wide damage. An idea along the lines of a warrior Execute coupled with an effect.


Coup de Grâce:70 energy. 1 min cooldown : Effect lasts for 15 seconds, does not stack
Attack the target for Weapon damage plus XXX
Targets under 75% health take an additional 5% damage from all sources
Targets under 50% health take an additional 10% damage from all sources
Targets under 25% health take an additional 15% damage from all sources
Targets under 15% health take an additional 20% damage from all sources

Something like the above would produce a definite Dps advantage to the entire raid, as well as the impetus to include more than one rogue in the raid.

However the solution works out, something needs to be done. Even the 5v5 arena teams are looking at the rogues’ lack of synergistic contribution and weighing it against their Dps and cc contribution.

 

Slyness

As long as there are pillars, rogue are always going to be valuable for locking a target in place to be dps'd.

 

Mideci

Well, Luuca, the numbers are probably too large, but yes, there absolutely needs to be raid synergy or we are starting to look like the Corvette -- still a bit sassy, but not really all that desirable. I'm quite unclear on why Blizzard doesn't see this when absolutely every other class brings raid synergy. Is there something I'm missing?

 

Fruffy

I've had both these trinkets for what seems like an eternity, but when I replaced my BB with my Shard of Contempt, I realized that I wasn't clicking my trinket with my other 2-min cooldowns, and I started to wonder about DPS differences.

Romulo's is slightly better than BB according to spreadsheets, but is BB better if I'm activating it with Drums/BF/Haste pot every time?

 

Luuca

With Dirty Deeds an easy/early 2 point buy in sub. providing an energy reduction of 20 on CS & Garrote, as well as allowing for a 20% increase on personal dps for any target at 35% health or less, as well as Improved Kidney Shot's 9% "all source" damage mechanic, I feel that my 'dummy sample' of Coup de Grâce is in line with the texture and feel of a deep combat-style talent. That said, you are probably right about it never being that large of a bonus to raid damage.

I'd like to see this type of mechanic in place for our "synergy" talent though. If it is to remain in the theme of melee dps, a debuff of this type is well within the accepted norm, and making it a result of a special attack cements it into the theme.

 

Luuca

Q: Is this for your warrior(Fury or MS?), as your posting profile states, or for your rogue?

The hit rating of Romulo's may be what has it better for you with your current gear etc. The spreadsheets are a great baseline, but you should always do your own in-game data gathering. If the difference is that slight, may not make a difference either way.

 

Fruffy

Terribly sorry, this is for my rogue, I would ask to be hung if I was a warrior using romulo's.

In-game data is very difficult to gather for this particular swap, since the best place to get something that won't die is a very low-level mob for which I would undoubtedly be over hit cap, and I can't drop below hit cap without radically changing my other stats.

I guess it's probably best to assume that the difference between the two setups is small enough that any advantage I gain by using BB that isn't accounted for by the spreadsheet (ie buff stacking) is enough to either push it ahead of romulo's or or not make a difference either way. I was just curious if someone had tackled this problem already, either mathematically or experimentally.

Maybe i can tweak the spreadsheet so it averages my total haste and AP gained from these 4 buffs out over a whole fight, thus forcing the spreadsheet to consider such buffs as stacked, or perhaps the spreadsheet already does this? Anyone know?

 

Qworf

Could it be that a group with 3-5 rogues or dualwielders with the Honor among Thieves talent would be absolutely devastating?
If Eviscerate is really that much buffed as it seems, you could eviscerate the whole time and just keep SnD up.
Or am i somewhat off here?


edit: nm, its just abilities, not autoswing, would have been too nice.

 

Saldivar

I just have a question about the rogue pve dps article. It says in there:

Without doing the math myself, I can see how this logically makes sense. I was surprised, however, when I went to confirm this with Dontmindme's dps spreadsheet. I currently am fist specced DWing the badge fists, but I had forgotten until today about the line in your article quoted above, considering that the S2 offhand is now even easier to obtain. I went to the spreadsheet and was happy to see a fairly significant increase in the dps shown when I replaced my fist of savagery with the s2 offhand. However, out of curiosity, I then inserted the s2 mainhand sword as well, and saw another fairly significant dps increase. Why is this? I do not know exactly what that spreadsheet takes into account. Is it because you can drop the points in fist spec and put them into vile poisons instead? You lose that extra crit, though. More procs of the sword spec? Is the spreadsheet even right? It seems like the fist should be a far better choice, offering agility, more attack power, and haste, as well as a slightly higher-based damage range (the damage range on the fist goes to down 23 lower than the s2 offhand, while the high limit is 30 higher) and is also .1 faster, more procs...

 

Professor Hurt

I'm almost positive this has to do with the way DMM has implemented the Windfury buff calculations. Recent discussions on Windfury mechanics have changed the way we think about it, however, and I'm not sure DMM has updated his sheet to account for that. I suggest cross referencing the other sheets (Aldriana's and Vulajin's) and if they still echo DMM's findings, it must be true

 

Coffin Burier

I finally created my first WWS parse. What do you think about it?

The WWS parse: Wow Web Stats

My armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

 

Professor Hurt

You are capable of much higher DPS based on the gear you have, but your spec and weapon choice (sword MH, dagger OH) really doesn't bode well in PvE. If you knew that already, nevermind, if not, check out the rogue theorcraft thinktank article written up by Vulajin. Also, no Windfury? I see only one Shaman so that's understandable, but suggest to your raid leader you pick up a few more. Without Windfury you should also be running a different poison selection (I don't see any deadly ticks, unless I am blind). Again, read the theorycrafting thinktank article for tips.

With all that in mind, your WWS looks reasonable given what I mentioned above.

 

Coffin Burier

I've tryed to post this parse in the DPS Spreadsheet, but it have been moved. I've discussed this spec in the paste.

This is just the first WWS parse and I hope to bring you some new one as soon as possible. Leo is not the right boss to compare my dps to a combat rogue one's.

I dind't save any link of the discussion about my Seal Fate Hemo spec. It have been proved how Rupture is superior to SnD with this spec. With the spreadsheet I've found out how crit rating becomes better then hit rating with this spec. Even in BT, I still have higher dps then my rogue mates. Look at their Armory... they are pretty well equipped, too. I may change guild to maxize my dps and compare it to better skilled combat sword rogues.

P.S.
I also have some Combat Sword items in my bank. This is just my Seal Fate Hemo equip. And with this spec, a dagger is not different from a sword. :P

P.P.S.
The Spreadsheet says I should gain 75 dps with a classic combat sword spec, without activating the Hemo Debuff in the Options (I usually keep it unchecked).

 

Ismail

Intresting melee group. Looks like you guys ran a roguex3, feral druid, and ret pally group. Is this a typical group set up for your raids?

 

Coffin Burier

We usually have the dudu feral. Sometimes we also have the pala retry, sometimes we have a hunter or a warrior prot in dps equip. We never ever had a shammy enanchement. I can easily reach 1000-1100 dps without it (with this equip and spec). The crit bonus from the leader of the pack aura is great for me: considering my AEP as 1 AP = 1.8 crit rating, the LOTP grants me like 200 extra AP. More important, it makes Seal Fate proc more, generating combos and dps exponentially. I usually run a 4r/5s cicle, which can become 5r/5s with a Seal Fate proc. Just to give you some more informations: in my AEP 1 hit rating is equivalent to 1.4 AP, so a rogue in ideal combat sword spec, wouldn't have the same results I have with mine. I'm focussed on AP, Crit Chance and Armor Penetration (which is not as good as for a Combat Sword Rogue: 1 Armor Penetration = 0.25 AP).

Indidh, Combat/Subtlety Rogue, Hakkar EU

 

Professor Hurt

Yes sorry I meant if you switch to combat your weapon choice wouldn't work well. You're right about the hemo build thing.

 

rpnguyen

At WWI Paris, Blizzard said Dagger Specialization will be improved in WOTLK, with no other details.

I for one would like to see Combat Daggers be the hands-down superior raiding dps spec (by around 5% maximum), mainly because of the positional requirement plus the fact that they are gimped outside of raids compared to swords/fists. Also I'm pretty nostalgic about the days of Perd/CHT and then Death's Sting/Pugio...

I haven't raided on my rogue in a while (not since about June 2007, when my guild at the time cleared The Eye). I had a mix of T4/T5 with Fang of Vashj/Merc Shiv, standard 15/41/5 spec. I even tried out Mutilate 41/20/0 for a while with Fang/Malchazeen. I would have switched to Swords if I had more luck with Talon/when I had enough points to buy the Slicer, as S2 had just started. While I have zero experience raiding T6 zones as a rogue, I do have some BT/MH exp on my druid.

I haven't kept up with the latest developments in Rogue raiding strats, but I still do play WoW on/off and I pay attention to Rogue changes. I know Blizzard tried to buff Combat Daggers by adding Backstab to Aggression. Then, Blizzard tried to provide an alternative for dagger rogues by changing Improved Backstab to add Mutilate crit chance.

This didn't address any of the the main problems with Dagger Spec: The +5% crit chance granted by Dagger Spec is inferior to Sword Spec, along with inferior combo point generation which limits the use of finishers. Also, the introduction of fast-speed OH swords only increased the gap between Dagger Spec and Sword Spec. Another big problem is that you have to split your talents across 3 trees since Opportunity is a must, and that means losing points in Assassination, missing out on full Ruthlessness/Lethality.


How do you think Blizzard will go about buffing Combat Daggers? I would think that they would have to address the combo point generation somehow, either by providing a means to reduce the cost of backstab or increasing the combo point gains, or by some other inventive means. Also, I'm assuming they will buff the core talent itself. What do you think would be an acceptable change to the current 5% additional crit chance? I have a lot of ideas, none that are really well thought out, but maybe something like increasing the energy return of Combat Potency while using Daggers?

 

Ashere

Dagger (and also fist) spec will share a synergy with the new Prey on the Weak talent. It probably won't be enough to make dual dagger or dual fist builds catch up, but a Fist MH / Sword OH build may well turn out to be the best choice for full-combat rogues, given a choice between identical weapons of different types.

 

nosille

Blizzard seems to be trying to improve daggers with the WOTLK expansion. However, combat daggers does not appear to be the target of the buffs. Instead the deep assassination and subtelty trees recieved some interesting talents that favor fast weapons, poisons, and crit. These are all things that traditionally favor daggers.

In assassination it is now possible to boost IP and DP damage by (20% with vile poison and 20% more with Devious Poison), and the application rate for all poisons can be increased by 25% with improved poisons. Best of all, deadly brew allows one weapon to apply 2 poisons, so it is now possible to run with 4 poisons. Focused attacks returns energy on melee crits, and cut to the chase provides a full duration slice and dice everytime eviscerate or envenom crits. The 51 point assassination talent, Hunger for Blood is a 5% enrage that will stack 3 times.

Subtelty now has Honor Among Thieves where crits by members of your party give you combo points, and it is possible to reduce the energy cost of backstab and ambush by 15. The 51 point subtlety talent, shadow dance, will allow 3 openers in less than 9 seconds every 2 minutes.

There is also a rumor saying that the way stats work will change. Poisons are suppose to benefit from melee stats such as crit. This should give poisons a way to scale. Something that has always been lacking.

 

taichibear

I have read this thread for a while, and was wondering as to what people think the likely effects of the upcoming talents are going to be.

Mutilate seems to be gaining the most from the new talents... but without re-allocation in all the trees that was almost inevitable, as it stood to gain the most from simply having 10 additional talents points in picking up Blade Flurry, 5/5 Opportunity, and 4/5 Dagger Specialisation, if the new talents didn't stack up.

It seems to me that with the buff to poisons Mutilate will want the fastest possible off-hand to take advantage of the up to 45% chance to apply both instant and deadly poisons to your target, as well as the energy recovered from Focused Attacks.

Unfair Advantage is a very strange talent. Our class leader saw it as a pvp option for rogues, whereas my first reaction was to see it as some manner of off-tanking talent. Could it be possible that the full-avoidance shenanigans rogues have been proven capable of are actually being validated in Wrath?

If the new talents once again come to the live servers before the expansion proper, this is the spec I was planning on testing for our raids:
Rogue - Talents - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

I am sorry my mathcraft not being quite at a level where I can fully back up all of this with calculations.

 

Luuca

I think you’re missing the fact that everything in this game is now being balanced around the PvP that occurs in the vacuum of arenas. Using the arenas as their litmus test, Blizz sees how well rogues do in small-scale, multi-player PvP combat situations, using their Sub Spec, and likely thinks that all is well and right in the world.

While it’s true that even with the ever-annoying Cheat Death talent, Cloak of Skill, and Shadow Step, one must actually have some ability to PvP as a rogue, it is also true that much of what makes a rogue desirable and viable in PvP does not translate well into PvE. There is no more a need for 300+Hit Rating in PvP than there is a need for 300+Resil in BT. The same spiky-burst damage and stun-lock abilities that are desirable in arenas will get a rogue (and possibly the raid) killed in PvE raiding. Balancing the PvE raiding abilities and system around the very limited and sterile PvP information is tantamount to applying Monopoly rules to play Risk. It doesn't work.

In an effort to attract and keep the casual player who could not get into Molten Core to get epics, Blizz created the PvP epics and arenas. While it has allowed the average Joe with ~10 hours a week to burn to get his purplez and pwn, I believe it has created sort of silent penalty that is being imposed upon a new sub-class of player- The Casual Raider. Casual Raiders who raid end-game content, play 3-5 hours a day, 3-4days a week, barely have time to farm the mats for consumables and do dailies prior to raiding, much less spend 2+ hours in arenas or BGs. How is this penalty? Simple: The gear from arenas is designed specifically for PvP. The stats and resil on this gear apply out in the world the same as in an arena. This fact gives a distinct advantage to those who PvP in arenas/BGs over those who choose not to. The time and effort it took to get in there and get T6 all add up to me being a sitting duck for anyone with decent resil, the right spec, and as low as S2 gear. Make Hit Rating act as Resiliency outside of instances, and I may have a chance. I know, the next post will be something about me rolling on a RP server or something. To that, I can only respond that world PvP used to be pretty even. Now, it’s a joke, and that joke is spilling over into our raiding.

In conclusion, the success and popularity of the PvP arenas and its welfare epics has dimmed the light on the raiding aspects of this game. Blizz over-corrected and now has an imbalance that permeates the PvP realms. They continue to use the arenas as their “lab”, and create more and more imbalance outside of their “lab” environment. As long as they have their blinders on, our hopes of some sort of “Raid Synergy” will only happen if it makes sense in 5-mans.

 

• Aldriana

I guess I don't really agree with your complaint. The situation at the moment is basically that if you want to excel in either aspect of the game (PvP or PvE), then you have to do "endgame" content of that type. You get the best PvP gear by being a high end arena player, and the best PvE gear by being a high-end raider. If you don't PvP at all, you're going to be at someone of a disadvantage relative to someone who does so regularly. Seems reasonably sensible on the whole.

The only issue, I suppose, might be that PvP is to some extent unavoidable. If you're on a PvP server, sooner or later, you're going to get ganked, and it would be convenient to be able to fight back. This is, of course, a valid point, however, while it's true that PvP is to some extent inevitable, it's also true that PvE is to some extent inevitable; if you want to make money, or get your epic mount, or any such thing, you do need to farm, and generally PvE gear is superior for that sort of thing. And if you're not farming for such things... well, you're not getting ganked, either.

So what does this mean for the casual raider? Well, if you spent a bit of time on PvE and none on PvP, yes, you're going to be at a disadvantage relative to someone who PvPs casually and doesn't raid. They spend time doing PvP; this seems totally reasonable. However, between the PvP encounters, you're going to be farming faster due to your PvE gear, so it balances out on all but the most world-PvP heavy servers. You're also going to be at a disadvantage relative to serious PvEers, but, again: they've put more time in, so that sort of makes sense too.

I guess my ultimate point is this: the system does favor those who play more over those who play less... and that's fine. If the 40 hour a week players and the 4 hours a week players were on equal footing, no one would play 40 hours a week. Your strengths and weaknesses will be relative to what you spend your time doing, which seems entirely reasonable to me. So I don't really agree that there's any real PvP/PvE imbalance going on right now.

 

• Feist-Mok

So, Something thats baffled me of late:
I'm typically top DPS Rogue on DPS race encounters like Brutallus, and when watching my threat meter, I see threat numbers that reflect that - one of our other rogues however, while generally 1-200dps behind me, somehow, manages to put out over 400 TPS more than me according to Omen. He attributes this to being Mace Specced and critting harder, but that flies in the face of what I thought I had understood about threat, which is that it's a direct function of damage done - crits = more threat because they hit harder, not because they get some kind of bonus threat for being crits. The other possible explanation is that he plays with transatlantic latency, and that perhaps Omen is somehow highballing his threat to ensure he doesn't pull aggro due to out of sync communications.

Any thoughts?