• Vulajin

Crits have no special increased threat factor other than dealing more damage, but as a rogue your TPS is directly based on your DPS. Omen does not compensate for latency in any fashion, it simply reports your threat. TPS calculations aren't necessarily accurate, though, since they're instantaneous calculations and depend on whether your DPS suddenly spikes up or down.

 

• Aldriana

As far as I know, rogue threat should only be affected by total damage + direct threat modifying ability (Salvation, Feint, etc.). Under the assumption that you have the same buffs and you're doing more damage, you *should* be generating more threat. I guess the first question I'd ask is: who gets aggro first (if the tank dies or whatever)? I.e., is it a display bug in Omen, or is he actually generating more threat?

 

Dontmindme

It could also be possible that the particular version of Omen isn't properly negating Mace stuns for mobs that are immune. I believe the stun itself has a threat component and maybe this is being erroneously added to his threat.

 

drumbum

Another potential source of threat is certain types of heals, including Prayer of Mending and the final heal of Lifebloom. Both of these appear in your combat log as though the heal was cast by yourself (i.e., you would be credited with the healing, not the priest or druid), but I'm not sure if they also generate threat on the person being healed as well. If it does, that could mean the other rogue was simply getting healed with more of these types of spells to bring him above you on the threat table.

 

madman

That is a very welcome change. If totems do not become raid-wide, or if there are few shammies in the raid, we will be less dependent on WF, which causes a LOT of frustrations today since it's such a huge buff.

 

• Feist-Mok

Yea, he's also 5 or 6 positions higher up on the threat meter (Often riding the 110% line in fact), which is what baffles me.

I'll have to pay a bit more attention our next few wipes and maybe try to avoid vanishing quite so proactively.

 

Luuca

I agree with your premise here, but your syllogism is flawed. Equal time in either area does not net the same gains. If they did, your assumptions would be valid.

Let's take a moment and consider basic advantages of the sets:

PvE gear > PvP gear inside of instances
PvP gear > PvE gear inside of arenas
PvE gear = PvP gear in world PvE (negligible advantage)
PvP gear > PvE gear in world PvP (huge Advantage)

I feel your assertion that PvE gear actually helps you kill world PvE mobs any more efficiently than PvP gear is absurd. The difference between the performances of these sets on world PvE mobs is so slight that it is insane to try and quantify it. In fact, one could argue that due to PvE sets being gemmed with raid buffs, boss stats, and limited damage taken in mind that the Raid PvE set is actually worse than the PvP set for world PvE. Most gemming for rogues PvP sets are set up for max benefit for DpS with no buffs, and against equal level mobs. Most raiding PvE sets have much less health than their PvP equals. There is no real advantage for a PvE set over a PvP set in world PvE.


I guess your missing my point. If serious PvPers had a huge advantage in the BGs and Arenas, and I had a huge advantage in raids and instances, but we both had equal advantages in the areas we share(the rest of the world), I probably wouldn’t have any issues at all. What has developed is a definite advantage in world PvP and PvE for those who spend their time in BGs and Arenas. Who hasn't run into the bored PvPer, with 400 resil, and more health than your MT, who constantly ganks you with no problem at all? Being dead, time and time again, negates any advantage my PvE set may have had. Besides.. do players in PvP gear have less of a chance to mine a node or pick and herb?

I feel what you should have said was: The system favors those who PvP. Period, end of sentence. I could spend 40 hours a week in Heroics and raids. I could get full T6 and Sunwell gear and badge loot, and still end up some S2 casuals bitch while trying to do dailies. When you have a class of players with this huge of an advantage in 2/3 areas of the game, it's imbalanced and unfair. Add to that the fact that Blizz seems to think that balancing the PvE abilities and talents around PvP and arenas is a good idea, and you end up with a subclass with a serious disadvantage.

I don’t have the answers, but I can definitely see the problems. Am I alone here?

edit: quote error

 

◊ Shaker

I just have to say, as someone in full T6, if a S2 casual jumped me, he'd get his ass handed to him pretty handily. If a full S4 rogue jumped me, it'd be a good fight and while definitely in his favor, more because he got the jump on me than because of gear. I can stand toe to toe in my pve gear with a rogue in his pvp gear. The gear is reasonably well balanced in this way (you lose a little dps, and gain a little survivability, but without a healer in the situation, the fight won't go long enough for it to make a huge difference).

Honestly, looking at your gear, if you're getting killed by solo rogues in S2 gear, you're probably just not the best pvper. While that's certainly an issue for YOU, it's not an issue for the rogue class in general.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

Ulthwithian

I don't post here very much, but I feel competent enough to post on this particular subject.

My guild is a small 'casual' guild, particularly by the standards of the people who frequent these forums. We are currently undergoing a debate on exactly this issue of PvP vs. PvE gearing. Since we are too small to raid, the consensus is basically that gaining the PvP gear available to us is much easier, requires less coordination, and is superior to PvE gear available to us, with the possible exception of our tank.

This is of concern to a few members of my guild. We can follow theorycraft, but are not very proficient in performing our own. (Aldriana might remember a conversation we had a while ago.)

In any event, I will be following at least this side discussion fairly closely.

 

Luuca

Ok, true, the diparity of gear 1v1 for rogues FullT6 vrs Full S2 would probably not make a difference; however, the PvP rogues spec will give him a definate edge. I can't tell you how many times a Shs Cheat-reality rogue has been at 2% and gotten away only to prep, come back and finish me off. I suck at pvp, thats true, but the huge advantage even casually PvP arenas,a nd speccing gives you in the shared world is insane.

Someone I know suggested I take a month off from raiding and only PvP with my time. He claims I'll never go back to raiding. I dunno. Just frustrated that I feel like I'm being squeezed out of end-game raids by "Utility" players, Blizz seems PvP-centric at this time, and my only option is to rework my charater and start building another end-game set.. PvP set that is.

I know.. QQ more.

 

Saldivar

I agree with your friend. As a rogue (overpowered) I really do find pvp much more fun/entertaining/absorbing than most pve - not to mention the far superior pvp "loot system" (you get X arena rating for X points per week which will get you exactly the gear that you want after X weeks - no Dragonspine BS).

Also, while I try to stay away from unbased claims and I haven't tested this because my pve set is way better than my pvp one, I believe a good pvp set is superior to a good pve set for world pve for a rogue. You'll only have (need) 5 or 6% hit, and most world pve mobs are 70 or under, so having 300+ hit for encounters is an enormous waste of stats that would be much better used in your pvp set toward ap/agi and crit. Not to mention you'll fare better on a pvp server in a populated farming spot when you have to engage in pvp to keep farming :P

 

◊ Shaker

Eh, I find that a solid combat spec for raiding does just fine for minimal PvP - granted, I'm on a PvE server, but I do PvP regularly in BGs and Arenas. Things like undodgable KS, being able to burst with AR/BF are very solid Rogue vs Rogue abilities.

Honestly, you just need more practice. If this is that large a concern for you, take a few hours a week and go do battlegrounds, fix your keybindings so you have quicker access to the things you need, and just prepare yourself for the realities of PvE on a PvP server.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

◊ Shaker

This is 100% untrue. Hit rating up to 300 (19% + 5% precision) is effective against even level targets, at which point you're capped. More than that is ineffective, yes, but having 300 is not an enormous waste of stats.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

Maaras

I have a slight disagreement with the part of the quote bolded above, and it is personally my biggest gripe about Blizzard's treatment of PvP. Several times during TBC, the best PvE weapons I could have had were only attainable via Arenas. I'm not good at PvP, I'll admit it. But I play on a PvE server for a REASON. S3 swords being the best endgame PvE weapons outside of the Warglaives (pre-Sunwell) seemed bass-ackwards to me.

Also, boss fights that forced me to farm up my PvP trinket to get out of fear/conflag/whatever kinda irked me. There has definitely been a shift in Burning Crusade to make PvP more desirable, or even required to do certain PvE things.

 

• Aldriana

Well, the first thing I'd note is that there's nothing stopping you from respeccing to a PvP spec for farming yourself. I don't think it's necessarily a good idea, but you could try it.

Second, regarding your earlier point about PvP vs PvE gear for farming; well, it's true that PvP rogues are more used to planning things out for unbuffed combat... but they're also somewhat operating under the assumption that they're getting healed through the damage input of another character, and so forth. Thus, PvP gear and socketing tends to spend an awful lot of itemization budget on stamina and resilience, which really does nothing in world PvE - in my PvE gear I kill stuff fast enough that I can literally go for an hour without needing to stop and heal, because nothing lives long enough to do significant damage to me. Thus, any defensive stats at all are just wasted, and I'm fairly confident that, optimized for buffed or not, I still do more damage than a S3 rogue would, and thus farm faster.

Lets be clear: most of my experience is on PvE servers, and what alts I have on PvP servers aren't to the point where they're doing endgame content, so I can't really comment on the world PvP situation. So it's entirely possible that world PvE is more unequal than I would expect. On the other hand, I have had former guildmates that made it rather high up the arena rankings wearing only minimal PvP gear (like, the trinket and the MH sword, and that's about it), so I have reason to believe that PvP in PvE gear can work and is not totally unbalanced. So I would say the situation is something like this: PvE gear is much stronger than PvP in instances; in PvP, both world and arena, PvP gear holds some advantage, but a smaller one. In world PvE, they're pretty close, but PvE gear probably does have the advantage.

So, that said, is their some favoritism towards PvP gear? Probably by a bit on PvP servers, but not on PvE servers (and in either case, I don't think the problem is necessarily that large, though I may feel otherwise when my PvP alt reaches 70). On the other hand, even if there is something of an advantage to PvP gear on a PvP server... well, you *did* choose to play on a PvP server, which implies a certain willingness to play the PvP game... so if you try to avoid it entirely, I guess it's not too surprising that that works against you.

I agree... to some extent. They're not as entirely separate as they might be, which is sort of an unfortunate situation. The OH situation requiring PvP to compete was not ideal, and I hope it's not repeated. And the need for a PvP trinket is somewhat irksome as well (though there's actually not that many fights that truly require it - I've done every fight in the game short of M'uru without using it). On the other hand, PvE spills back into PvP to some extent as well - there's a number of pieces of PvE gear that are quite good for arena (Berserker's Call being the first example that springs to mind). So I do think it would be nice if the separation was a little more pronounced - for instance, making good weapons for all PvE specs available via badges rather than needing to arena for them. On the other hand, the amount of PvP required to actually be completely viable in PvE is relatively small, so I'm not sure how big of a problem it really is at the moment.

 

Luuca

Yes, I did choose a pvp server, and short of the OP warlocks just prior to TBC and Cloak of Shadows, pvp was never as imbalanced and one-sided as it is today. The pvp *game* as you call it used to be pretty even out there in the world when I started WoW. The fact that the PvP mechanics and abilities have changed around me does not mean I chose them. There is, in my opinion, two games going on in WoW right now. Blizzard has used PvP to lock in its "E-Sport" position and it is not going away. The PvE aspects, I feel, are now a drudgery to the designers and are there simply there as a backdrop at this point. I mean, seriously, our new tanking class uses a 2-hander.

This has gotten waaaay off topic and I apologize for derailing this thread.

Yes, some sort of raid utility and raid synergy may convince me not to throw up my hands, respec, and start the S4 grind.

 

Leesh

Hi,
This is in regards sword procs with Non-sword MH/sword OH posted here: PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion I'd quote the whole post but its big.
I'm looking to clarify what I'm reading to make sure I get it or don't. Sorry as I know this has come up a few times but I want to make sure I got it and your patience is appreciated.

From that post:
So non-sword MH *does* get procs from the OH sword. Are the proc's always performed by the MH?
WWS here:
Wow Web Stats

Snippet:

 

• Aldriana

Yes. An OH Sword will generate SS procs; all SS procs are performed by the MH, regardless of weapon type or which hand triggered them. So if you're MH fist, OH sword, your OH sword will proc MH fist hits.

 

• Vulajin

Yes, and your combat log snippet is consistent with this.

(edit) Wait, what? The procs are caused by regular swings performed by a sword. The proc results in an extra swing which is always performed by the main hand. But a proc can only occur in the first place on a swing performed by a sword.

 

Katria

Well, this is true for autoattack but not for specials. For sinister strike you only need 5% hit for a level 70 mob. While raiding, your white damage is a huge contribution to your dps. For grinding...your special attacks account for a larger percentage of your damage output. So pushing those to the limit with more AP/agility/crit instead of boosting white damage with more +hit is going to do more for you when farming.

In my gear (S2 swords, badge gear, kara/ZA epics), I kill most mobs in 10 seconds or less. When fights are that short, the math is far different from raiding where you beat on a boss for 5 minutes. Might be interesting to run a WWS on an hour of grinding just to see what % of my damage actually is white damage, just out of curiosity...but it'll be no where near ~60% like it is when raiding.

 

Eyegore

I do not have the source at hand presently, perhaps someone will recall where this is from, but I do specifically recall reading an interview or statement from someone at Blizzard where they acknowledge that the raiding game has been less rewarding that other aspects (pvp) of late, and that they intend to address this in wrath. Just because they have swung the balance a bit much toward the pvp side of the game, and remember that arena and resilience were a big addition (the shiny new thing as it were) in BC so they did get a bit too much love, it does not necessarily mean that they have abandoned all interest in pve.

How effective they are in balancing the return on time investment in pve vs pvp going forward remains to be seen. But, would it not have sucked more for the game to have them introduce this new aspect of the game (arena) and the associated gear and have it be unrewarding? They over corrected (pretty badly in my opinion), but they got people into it and it is now an established aspect of the game.

All we can do at this point is wait and see what wrath brings, jumping to the conclusion that they "don't care about raiding" because they gave a bit more attention to the new kid this time around seems premature.

 

• Aldriana

Hit is certainly somewhat less valuable in grinding, although that has as much to do with the fact that you're unbuffed as fight duration, I suspect. In reality, I suspect one maximizes farming DPS by stacking AP. But as neither PvP nor PvE gear holds an overwhelming advantage in that regard, I suspect the usually-higher DPS gear (PvE stuff) still wins.

 

Fqubed

While grinding on my rogue (ShS using kara badge gear, S2 equivalents with mongoose) my damage is 60+% white with specials closing the gap. I recall as the rogue was lvling that all of 69 (mutilate using blues) my mutilate/ambush damage was around 70% with 3% for poisons and the rest white (ambush / gouge / muti / KS Mut Mut loot)

 

Wanny

I apologize if this is a repeat reply, I did not read all of the replies to the post. I've been a huge fan of mutilate since it was released and played it for quite some time early on in BC (through T4 content). Unfortunately I got stuck playing my Shaman when I entered into T6 content, so my experience with rogue raiding logistics may be a bit outdated.

I recently checked up on the projected talents for the next xpac and really liked what I saw. Does anybody see the new talents being implemented as a possible way for Assassination to supercede Combat's dominance over raid environments? Deadly Brew and Devious Poisons seem to be significant increases to poison effects and Focused Attacks combined with Cut to the Chase seem to rival some of the perks in the Combat tree. I intend to play Mutilate in WotLK and wonder if others see it becoming far more popular.

 

• Aldriana

That topic has been discussed a fair amount around pages 5-10 in this thread, as well as in the Mutilate thread. Consensus seems to be that Mutilate builds are looking like one of the stronger options at the moment, but without knowing more about the gear, damage ranges on new skill ranks, and so forth, we can't really comment on what's going to be tops. Once we get a little closer to launch - hopefully sometime during the beta - we should be able to make better estimates.