PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 283

Reizors · 11/12/08, 12:10 AM

Hey guys, I've been following this thread up until around just after 3.0 came out, i'm about 12 pages out of date now,
just wondering if anyone has posted the hit minimums/caps / expertise caps for 80.

Just looking a simple layout of:

Hitcap
Hitcap w/ Prec
Poisons.. etc..

I realise Hit is not worth going for as the ultimate stat anymore, just good to know these things to balance ourselves around.

Thanks.

drumbum · 11/12/08, 12:22 AM

Hit caps at level 80 can be found here: http://elitistjerks.com/956961-post3931.html

Reizors · 11/12/08, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by drumbum

Hit caps at level 80 can be found here: http://elitistjerks.com/956961-post3931.html

Thanks heaps mate.

Soulvex · 11/12/08, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

Anyone, please feel free to link to or fix this as appropriate. Please.

PvE Mutilate, fast and flawed advice
Daggers of nearly the same DPS? Use the faster ones.
Two good daggers of different speeds? Faster in the Mainhand.
Mainhand Instant Poison, Offhand Deadly Poison.

Rotation:
* Before combat, get 3 stacks of Hunger for Blood up.
* Start up Slice and Dice however you please, really.

1. Mutilate to 4+ Combo Points
2. Make sure Hunger for Blood isn't going to drop soon. Refresh it if it will.
3. Is Rupture up? If yes, Envenom. Go to step 1.
4. Does Slice and Dice have >12 seconds left? If no, Envenom. Go to Step 1.
5. Rupture. Go to Step 1.

PvE Combat, fast and flawed advice
Mainhand a sword or fist weapon of generally slow speed.
Offhand a sword, dagger or fist weapon of generally fast speed.
Spec appropriately, 4/5 sword spec is fine if you take Close Quarters Combat.
Mainhand Deadly Poison, Offhand Wound Poison.

Rotation:
* Start up Slice and Dice however you please, really.

1. Sinister Strike to 5 Combo Points.
2. Slice and Dice.
3. Sinister Strike to 5 Combo Points.
4. Rupture.
5. Sinister Strike to 5 Combo Points.
6. Does Slice and Dice have >12 seconds left? If yes, Envenom. If no, Go to Step 2.
7. Go to Step 1.

And no, it's not perfect or ideal. If you want real numbers that mean more to you it means you're going to have to put your gear/gems/enchants/spec into one of the readily available spreadsheets and find out for yourself. This however will keep you from embarrassing yourself until you do.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I'm seeing some contradictory examples of cycles re: mutilate. I've noticed some people saying, for example, garrote 1CP, SnD, build 4+CP then rupture, whereas others are saying the same thing but envenom first to get CttC proccing (4+n, 4+r). To me, the latter makes more sense since, if my brain napkin math is in the ballpark, you would not have enough time in the 12 seconds (I think) of SnD to envenom for CttC after you used your energy on the rupture because you have to mutilate two more times after said rupture.

Pyriana · 11/12/08, 1:25 AM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

Anyone, please feel free to link to or fix this as appropriate. Please.

PvE Mutilate, fast and flawed advice
Daggers of nearly the same DPS? Use the faster ones.
Two good daggers of different speeds? Faster in the Mainhand.
Mainhand Instant Poison, Offhand Deadly Poison.

Rotation:
* Before combat, get 3 stacks of Hunger for Blood up.
* Start up Slice and Dice however you please, really.

1. Mutilate to 4+ Combo Points
2. Make sure Hunger for Blood isn't going to drop soon. Refresh it if it will.
3. Is Rupture up? If yes, Envenom. Go to step 1.
4. Does Slice and Dice have >12 seconds left? If no, Envenom. Go to Step 1.
5. Rupture. Go to Step 1.

PvE Combat, fast and flawed advice
Mainhand a sword or fist weapon of generally slow speed.
Offhand a sword, dagger or fist weapon of generally fast speed.
Spec appropriately, 4/5 sword spec is fine if you take Close Quarters Combat.
Mainhand Deadly Poison, Offhand Wound Poison.

Rotation:
* Start up Slice and Dice however you please, really.

1. Sinister Strike to 5 Combo Points.
2. Slice and Dice.
3. Sinister Strike to 5 Combo Points.
4. Rupture.
5. Sinister Strike to 5 Combo Points.
6. Does Slice and Dice have >12 seconds left? If yes, Envenom. If no, Go to Step 2.
7. Go to Step 1.

And no, it's not perfect or ideal. If you want real numbers that mean more to you it means you're going to have to put your gear/gems/enchants/spec into one of the readily available spreadsheets and find out for yourself. This however will keep you from embarrassing yourself until you do.

For combat there are exceptions where wound poison is more optimal in the mh instead of the offhand, basically you want wound poison whichever hand attacks more. So say you have a 1.6 off and a 2.5 mh (I know these are way less than optimal speeds) it may in fact be better to have wound poison in the main hand.

• Vulajin · 11/12/08, 1:43 AM

Update regarding the PvE DPS article...I'll be working on it furiously tomorrow and hope to be able to release a very rough Wrath version of it before Wrath actually launches. However, I don't genuinely expect to meet that goal, so expect to wait for at least a week while I get to 80 before I have time to finish it up.

Same goes for the Roguecraft Spreadsheet.

jorysaywut · 11/12/08, 8:34 AM

You could argue Sub is just as mechanical as Combat. Even as HaT, you're basically waiting for 5 combo points and following the same rules as Combat or Mut. You keep Slice up, keep Rupture up, Eviscerate(instead of SS/Mut) otherwise. You can weave in things like vanish for MoS buff and shadowstep but your energy is never variable like it is with the other two specs. Sure you can shadow dance but how's that any different from other CD abilities like AR, BF or KS in terms of CD management. So while it might be fun having a different spec, I don't see the playstyle dynamic being so different other than having Prep. That said, I'm not against it being viable; I've already mentioned it'd be awesome if HaT was viable. There's just so many downsides that have been mentioned. Your DPS plummets when your teammates die, same for when you can't craft an optimal crit group for whatever reason(raid attendance/raid strategy).

Thanks for all your work Vulajin.

path411 · 11/12/08, 9:27 AM

Originally Posted by Maurice2u

Ultimately the trouble with deep Subtlety is directly coupled to HaT. While the mechanic is something different for rogues, and as such welcome, it's balance in the Subtlety tree is poorly implemented. I summarize this in two points:

1) HaT comprises far too much of Subtlety's maximum theoretical DPS.

coupled with

2) HaT is completely dependent upon the other 24 members of the raid.

When these two things are grafted atop each other you end up with a build that shines under optimal conditions, dare I say even much stronger than traditional PvE specs, but is equally skewed to the other side of the spectrum, to the level of near-obsolete in challenging situations. In short, the problem is variability.

In a fight of trivial content, with a raid geared to maximum or near-maximum capabilities, HaT receives excellent contribution from his party's crit rate. Due to the overcompensation of HaT into Subtlety's DPS it provides a constant stream of combo points to such extent that all the rogue does is spam finishers. Well that sounds great (and is in that circumstance), but what happens in progression?

In any circumstance where the raid is not optimally geared, there is a encounter design that splits up on-target time among players (running around doing different tasks or spamming CC), difficult encounters where a few raid-members can reasonably expect to die, or (worse) a combination of any of those factors, HaT begins to significantly decline. Since the tree has to be somewhat balanced assuming optimal contribution from HaT not making the rogue overpowered, that means essentially that there is direct proportionality to the difficulty of the fight making the rogue weaker. This is a horrible catch 22. Instead of the rogue being the last DPS standing & bursting all his damage to down the boss' last 1% (old Gruul fights?), if a HaT rogue ever gets to that point his damage has decreased to such an extent that the tank (under wrath mechanics) is probably doing just as much damage.

HaT needs a significant nerf (in proc rate I suspect) in order to reduce it's variability in output. However, that means the rest of Subtlety will need a significant buff in terms of more consistent damage sources in order to be reliable and on par with more traditional PvE specs.

So in conclusion: Deep Subtlety (HaT) is beautiful for fun fighting in content you've already got on farm, but is far and away the worse PvE choice for challenging content and/or progression.

I horribly disagree with this post.

1. HaT, though hard to perfectly model, simply comes down to average group ability crits/second.
2. HaT is group only not the entire raid. Spreadsheets have always assumed optimal situations. Pre 3.0 for example, group buffs were key for a rogue, a single member dying could lead to a significant decrease in a rogue's DPS. This is the same for HaT.

People have in the least been pushing very close dps as HaT as combat, many pushing even more dps. With group buffs being almost a thing of the past, a raid can easily afford to set up any HaT rogues with optimal groups and with further testing of what classes are the most beneficial this can only improve.

HaT doesn't receive some "special bonus" for outgearing the encounter, it's the level of gear you are at. When these gear levels are reached again, in wrath, HaT will likely be viable. Also, HaT being sub, gives you several additional survivability talents that are helpful in learning new fights while progressing.

Also, PS to others: Stop referring to shadow dance in any serious HaT spec. 43-44 points are the most you should ever pick up in Sub if you are serious about raiding as HaT.

Troisloeil · 11/12/08, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Update regarding the PvE DPS article...I'll be working on it furiously tomorrow and hope to be able to release a very rough Wrath version of it before Wrath actually launches. However, I don't genuinely expect to meet that goal, so expect to wait for at least a week while I get to 80 before I have time to finish it up.

Same goes for the Roguecraft Spreadsheet.

Urraaah! Thanks! I appreciate your work!

Anybody know what the criteria was on the gear fiasco yesterday? Rogues seemed to get the stink eye. My Priest on the other hand got both Merciless sets (Moon & Soul), plus some of the Guardian jewelry. Woulda been nice if one of the rings or something was available. Flesh out a few slots with that AP and Crit.

It's not like I don't have the honor to buy them anyway, or already don't have better, but y'know, free! lol

"Folks, the horde of Evil Minions will be here any second. Now's your last chance to get a Horde Minion Hunting Permit."

drumbum · 11/12/08, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Troisloeil

Anybody know what the criteria was on the gear fiasco yesterday? Rogues seemed to get the stink eye. My Priest on the other hand got both Merciless sets (Moon & Soul), plus some of the Guardian jewelry. Woulda been nice if one of the rings or something was available. Flesh out a few slots with that AP and Crit.

It's not like I don't have the honor to buy them anyway, or already don't have better, but y'know, free! lol

The realms were taken down last night to correct the problem, and all items that were purchased for free or without the required rating were removed from the characters who purchased them.

Troisloeil · 11/12/08, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by drumbum

The realms were taken down last night to correct the problem, and all items that were purchased for free or without the required rating were removed from the characters who purchased them.

Just had the Blue post come through.

Realm Maintenance 11/12/2008

".....Once the maintenance concludes, players who obtained such items will notice them removed from their inventory. However. any tokens or arena/honor points spent on said gear will be appropriately refunded. -Cinterome"

At least if you actually bought something you won't get screwed. I know a couple of my guildee's bought some of their Brutal gear yesterday.

I have a feeling for the next week the game is going to be...interesting, in the Chinese way.......

MasterDinadan · 11/12/08, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Troisloeil

Just had the Blue post come through.

Realm Maintenance 11/12/2008

".....Once the maintenance concludes, players who obtained such items will notice them removed from their inventory. However. any tokens or arena/honor points spent on said gear will be appropriately refunded. -Cinterome"

At least if you actually bought something you won't get screwed. I know a couple of my guildee's bought some of their Brutal gear yesterday.

I have a feeling for the next week the game is going to be...interesting, in the Chinese way.......

And what if you wasted money on gems and enchants for these items? I'm not talking about the ones that were received for free, but for people who actually spent the honor or arena points buying the items AND the gold to gem and enchant them, only to have the items taken away. Even if you get the honor and arena points back, you still have to gem and enchant them again.

Demi9OD · 11/12/08, 4:53 PM

Rogue PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion

Kjallstrom · 11/12/08, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by drumbum

Hit rating caps at level 80 with 5/5 Precision and either Improved Faerie Fire or Misery

Mob level	Specials	White	Poisons
80	0	623	0
81	17	640	0
82	33	656	0
83+	132	755	237

A quick addendum to these lookup tables: if you're Alliance, there's a fairly good chance you'll have a Draenei with Heroic Presence in your raid (and as of 3.0.2, this is a single buff from all Draenei classes giving +1% to both melee and spell hit). Depending on raid composition, it may be possible for you to be grouped with a Draenei, which would allow you to swap out some hit (admittedly, only ~33 hit rating) for something else.

Hit rating caps at level 80 with 5/5 Precision, a Draenei in your raid group (and within 30 yards), and either Improved Faerie Fire or Misery

Mob level	Specials	White	Poisons
80	0	591	0
81	0	607	0
82	0	623	0
83+	99	722	210

Shaker · 11/12/08, 4:55 PM

Need a Draenei in the GROUP, not just in the raid.