Which version of the notes are you looking at? Vile Poisons currently increases Envenom damage, and Wowhead's WoLK talent calculator confirms that this hasn't changed... maybe a typo on the notes that you read?
Both World of Raids and MMO-Champion's BETA patch notes indicate the Evis change.
Vile Poisons (Assassination) reduced to 3 ranks, now increases damage of poisons and Eviscerate by 7/14/20% and increases dispel resistance by 10/20/30%.
Both Wowhead and MMO-Champion's BETA talent calculators still have the Envenom increases.
Easiest way to figure this out would be to have someone just take a SS of the talent screen in-game.
I have seen no math or indications at all to support any percentage that tank threat will be buffed at.
Straight from the Warrior beta patch notes:
Defensive Stance now increases threat by 45%
That makes up for the missing 30 % given that Defensive stance currently increases threat generation by 15%... for warriors at least. As it seems Feral instincts has been changed from an increase in threat Bear form to a 5/10/15% damage increase of swipe.
Now I'm really confused - I just now took the link that you posted and checked out vile poisons, makes no mention of eviscerate for me, with 0, 1, 2, or 3 points in it.
*Edit* In the Wowhead beta patch notes, the description says eviscerate, but mousing over the link for vile poisons still says envenom. I submit that this is a typo in the notes.
Now I'm really confused - I just now took the link that you posted and checked out vile poisons, makes no mention of eviscerate for me, with 0, 1, 2, or 3 points in it.
*Edit* In the Wowhead beta patch notes, the description says eviscerate, but mousing over the link for vile poisons still says envenom. I submit that this is a typo in the notes.
Yeah I made my own error :'(. I meant to say envenom, pretty terrible while mentioning their error indeed.
Currently, there are only a few pieces of gear with expertise and because of that we have to pick which couple of pieces to go after without going over the cap. In WotLK, it seems that they have added alot of new types of gem stat combos along with the change of spell hit/ melee hit to the same thing. Now, I was just wondering, what will be the primmary stats to gem for? I mean, Haste seems like it will always be a dps increase, while hit and expertise will cap eventually, and such.
It doesn't, because you can't skill defiance anymore (which were 15% bonus thread). So all you get are 3 more skillpoints but no extra threat.
Threat changes aside, it’s pretty much the same now and to come. Right now, Salvation is a useful tool to help us manage our threat; however, it still takes focus and attention to balance our Dps vs. threat. Dpsing too early, agro drops by boss abilities, etc all have forced us to learn where that edge is on a Tank- by-Tank and Boss-by-Boss basis. These changes just highlight our need to watch our threat.
With the changes to raid buffs, threat mitigation, increased damage from finishers, etc... it is clear that the gap between good and great rogue raiding Dps is getting wider. Tighter and tighter cycles, positional DpS specs becoming viable (if not leading) and this new emphasis on personal threat management, all make the days of sloppy sinister striking while PMing on Yahoo and eating a hot pocket an endangered species. (come on.. I’m not the only one.)
Extreme examples aside, I’m glad to see our “job” becoming more demanding in order to excel. What would be really awesome (Warning: Sarcasm Ahead) is if Blizz would give us some sort of raid synergy or raid-wide Boss de-buff to help ensure our raid slots.
Originally Posted by EJ Moderator
You have received an infraction at Elitist Jerks.
Reason: Useless Post
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I'm not going to say he didn't deserve that, but it doesn't make your post any less useless.
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Currently, there are only a few pieces of gear with expertise and because of that we have to pick which couple of pieces to go after without going over the cap. In WotLK, it seems that they have added alot of new types of gem stat combos along with the change of spell hit/ melee hit to the same thing. Now, I was just wondering, what will be the primmary stats to gem for? I mean, Haste seems like it will always be a dps increase, while hit and expertise will cap eventually, and such.
I think it's a bit early to say. The short answer is: should hit/expertise remain among the top stats, one will probably do what you do now: socket them until you're near the cap, and then use one of the other good stats (currently agi) to finish out.
The main way I could see this changing is if they make an ArPen gem, as I suspect that if such a thing existed one might be able to stack ArPen until it was the best stat. But we'll have to wait until we have all the information and can spreadsheet it out before saying for sure.
I think it's a bit early to say. The short answer is: should hit/expertise remain among the top stats, one will probably do what you do now: socket them until you're near the cap, and then use one of the other good stats (currently agi) to finish out.
The main way I could see this changing is if they make an ArPen gem, as I suspect that if such a thing existed one might be able to stack ArPen until it was the best stat. But we'll have to wait until we have all the information and can spreadsheet it out before saying for sure.
Here is a link to the gems, the first page are epic quality and the recipe page has some uncommon and rare quality gems.
They do have an ArPen gem, as well as some good combos with it that seem to lean on more of a PvP side. One gem that really interests me though is the deadly Flawless Ametrine, which is 10 agi/ 10 crit, since mutilate builds lean on crit for better CP generation, wouldn't that make this more useful for assassination over an agi/hit gem?
It's entirely possible that crit/agi type gems will rise to prominance; but again, it's just too early to say. Until we have a full list of items, all the numbers for the new abilities, base stats at level 80, and all the other pieces of the puzzle, we just can't make reasonable estimates on what stats are going to rise to the top of the heap. I imagine it will also be somewhat spec dependent, more so than it currently is.
Right now, Salvation is a useful tool to help us manage our threat; however, it still takes focus and attention to balance our Dps vs. threat. Dpsing too early, agro drops by boss abilities, etc all have forced us to learn where that edge is on a Tank- by-Tank and Boss-by-Boss basis. These changes just highlight our need to watch our threat.
This is my view as well. If anything, the nerf to Salv will improve the rogues' value to the raid, because we will be a high DPS class which doesn't need Salv in order to be effective and stay below the threat cap. For once, there will be a DPS buff that other classes need to leech more than we do.
Perhaps my view is colored by my own experiences (top 5 DPS in a T6 guild), but I know that for the vast majority of boss fights now, I wait about 2 seconds, then go all out for the remainder of the fight. More often than not I don't even need to vanish, but if the need arises, I do it lackadaisically whenever it is convenient for me after I hear the Omen warning.
This change might even make Feint a requirement for maximum raid DPS, even if it doesn't get buffed. Let the locks and shadow priests fight over the Salv rotation. We'll be forced to use vanish. And if that isn't enough, we'll use Feint (since the alternative are to stop attacking entirely, or pull aggro). Even if it "sucks", good rogues will still use it to maximize their personal DPS within the context of rDPS, and we'll feel like our class is more challenging to play well to boot.*
* Note that I'm not positive that using Feint isn't a worse use of energy than just stopping attacking and energy pooling, but if it is, then let's hope that they buff it at least to the point where it is not.
Neither of the classes you mentioned will need salv with any urgency.
Shadow priest group mana regen is already slated to be ~50% of what it is in TBC, and docking an extra 10% off that is just silly. Plus, between the changed shadowform (-30% threat) and their original talent, i can't see them whining about salv. Destro warlocks may have more trouble managing threat due to spiky crits with ruin, but bliz seems to be moving the class towards affliction and demonology, so a single soul shatter per fight is likely enough.
Don't forget that any "nerf" to dps due to threat for caster classes will not be relevant to hunters, potentially bringing them up yet another notch.
* Note that I'm not positive that using Feint isn't a worse use of energy than just stopping attacking and energy pooling, but if it is, then let's hope that they buff it at least to the point where it is not.
Feint, no matter how pathetic the aggro reduction, will always be better than just not doing damage, for the simple reason that it actually lowers your threat. "Doing less damage" is equivalent to just burning energy (or some other damage source) - you spend 20 energy to get absolutely no damage. Feint, on the other hand, spends that 20 energy to do absolutely no damage... and lower your threat, which increases the amount of time before you have to waste energy (or another damage source), thus increasing your DPS. Hence, if you are in an aggro-limited situation, it is always better to feint than to stop attacking or otherwise lower your DPS.
Neither of the classes you mentioned will need salv with any urgency. [...]
Don't forget that any "nerf" to dps due to threat for caster classes will not be relevant to hunters, potentially bringing them up yet another notch.
Well, I'm not in a position to argue, because I don't have a beta key (yet?), and I don't really follow other class skills in beta much either. On the other hand, while I appreciate that you're using the information we have now to the best of your ability, we're early enough in the process that I'll bet there is still substantial amounts of tuning to come, so I wouldn't want to form too many concrete conclusions.
As to hunters, I agree they would be in a similar boat as rogues, which is why I didn't include them. On the other hand, DPS Warriors also have the possibility of threat capping. So I guess I'm saying the limited availability of threat reduction buffs will have the effect of improving the relative desirability of classes that have mechanics to control their own threat as compared to those that don't, regardless of whether they are ranged or melee, caster or physical, DPS or healing.
Extreme examples aside, I’m glad to see our “job” becoming more demanding in order to excel. What would be really awesome (Warning: Sarcasm Ahead) is if Blizz would give us some sort of raid synergy or raid-wide Boss de-buff to help ensure our raid slots.
Other than damage, and in gimmicky fights which involve interrupts and mana drains, rogues bring nothing else to the table. Due this fact, raids have not been called if a rogue or a few rogues misses the raid. The same cannot be said of a survival hunter, destro lock, arms warrior, shadow priest, or any other class that provides useful group/raid buffs. So I agree that there should be at least one rogue spec that high-end raids cannot do without.
Some of the existing rogue mechanics are already there to provide this but Blizzard just has to expand on it. In light of the threat changes, perhaps vanish can be modified to give all party members within 20 yards an aggro drop. Another idea would be to have expose armor stack with sunder armor but up to a certain cap. Or have mind numbing poison reduce attack speed in addition to it reducing casting speed and have it work on all bosses.
My raid group is preparing to make attempts at Kael soon and since the encounter provides us with two legendary weapons, i have been considering a spec that would use both of them well, rather then just grabbing one that best fits your current spec. My plan with this build would be only for kael of course and i think it works out well, its a combat dagger/sword build. My only concern is how my dps would fare before getting the weapons.
Uh, the 2.0 speed offhand wielded dagger isn't really worth putting points into dagger spec for. (In fact, it may be well worth switching back to your normal offhand during phase 5 so long as everyone doesn't do it.)
Edit: Actually, looking at the spec... Even if it were worth it, you did it wrong, and skipping relentless strikes for 5/5 lethality is borderline insane.
This is so incredibly wrong that I don't really know where to start.
Spec cookie cutter. Wield the dagger OH and the Sword MH. Go reread the TTT article and try to understand WHY it's a bad idea - I'll give you a couple hints. You're wielding a.. what, 2.8 speed offhand? With no relentless?
(Editted, misread the spec)
I am specced cookie cutter currently, i was wondering if for, kael only, speccing backstab with dagger MH and sword OH would work out to be better only because of the fact we get legendary weapons. I thought it may work but it has a couple issues, you already mentioned some of them. If you got what i meant, then I'll stick with the norm and thanks for the advice. If not, then help with the talent build would be great, i think the combat tree is the best it can be for this but how/where for assassination is a different story.
Try a friendly neighborhood spreadsheet. But my advice: don't respec for Kael at all. You don't need to. The fight is about control, precision, coordination, and not being stupid, not about damage. For this fight, you will be perfectly fine with the sword mainhand and dagger offhand, no matter what spec you choose (Mutilate included).
Try a friendly neighborhood spreadsheet. But my advice: don't respec for Kael at all. You don't need to. The fight is about control, precision, coordination, and not being stupid, not about damage. For this fight, you will be perfectly fine with the sword mainhand and dagger offhand, no matter what spec you choose (Mutilate included).
Yes, and you don't even have to use the dagger in your OH until Phase 4 anyways (assuming you've got a fury warrior doing it). And in addition to that, when you ARE using the dagger OH, you're probably running around shivving off the MC a lot of the time so it doesn't even matter how much damage you're doing. So in conclusion, stay with your current spec.
07/23/08, 6:56 AM
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