For Kael, I actually set up macros to equip the dagger in my offhand when i hit shiv for mind controls, and to switch back to my offhand sword when I hit SS to resume DPS.
Sword spec and combat potency gains from using a faster sword offhand are enough to offset the dps loss from the legendary dagger. As long as the fury warriors keep their dagger equipped for the spell damage debuff, you're good to go.
This is my view as well. If anything, the nerf to Salv will improve the rogues' value to the raid, because we will be a high DPS class which doesn't need Salv in order to be effective and stay below the threat cap. For once, there will be a DPS buff that other classes need to leech more than we do.
I may have missed something, but with the boring uniformization of the classes, I don't see how rogues are now anything special in the threat managment department.
Every single class except hunter will have passive threat reduction equal to the rogue (if factoring in the range buffer), and many of them also have threat dump.
Sure, rogues have a more manageable threat than warriors, chamans and shadowpriest, but they are only half better than warlock, and equal to mage and hunters (probably much worse than hunters, in fact, after 30 sec in the fight).
Of courses things have time to change. I'm only speaking about what is on the table at the moment.
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
Do you guys have any opinion on a possible 53/0/18 build? I wonder what the numbers would be when getting both Blood Splatter and Serrated Blades together with mangle and trauma. Although I think it would be much more viable with some tweaks to CttC to encourage a Rupture/Envenom cycle.
I may have missed something, but with the boring uniformization of the classes, I don't see how rogues are now anything special in the threat managment department.
Every single class except hunter will have passive threat reduction equal to the rogue (if factoring in the range buffer), and many of them also have threat dump.
Sure, rogues have a more manageable threat than warriors, chamans and shadowpriest, but they are only half better than warlock, and equal to mage and hunters (probably much worse than hunters, in fact, after 30 sec in the fight).
Of courses things have time to change. I'm only speaking about what is on the table at the moment.
Hunters have better threat dumps than rogues, although last I heard they don't have a passive threat reduction like rogues do so need to pay someone more attention to it than we do. Meanwhile, while it's true that other classes have threat dumps, it's also true that ours is one of the better ones, and that we have a threat management ability outside of the dump. So while our threat management isn't necessarily a *lot* better than most classes, it's still among the strongest of all the classes. Also, the list of our primary competitors for raid slots - fury warrior, ret pally, enhancement shaman, feral druid (i.e., the other melee DPS classes) reads a lot like the list of classes without a threat dump. In the melee space, our aggro management really is a lot better. So I do think it's fair to say that threat-limited encounters work in the favor of rogues, on the whole.
Originally Posted by gia
Do you guys have any opinion on a possible 53/0/18 build? I wonder what the numbers would be when getting both Blood Splatter and Serrated Blades together with mangle and trauma. Although I think it would be much more viable with some tweaks to CttC to encourage a Rupture/Envenom cycle.
I'm not going to say it's completely inviable, but it does seem weak. It appears that Rupture may no longer be the undisputed king of finishers, so stacking +rupture talents may not actually gain you much (actually, it never gained you that much in the first place given that Rupture is only about 5% of your DPS at the moment, but that's quite a separate issue). And in order to get those 18 points in subtlety, you're giving up a lot of powerful abilities in combat.
On the whole, it's going to have the same relation to 51/20 that 43/18 and 41/20 have at the moment - that is, 41/20 is better in most circumstances. And when you factor in that 51/20 is not necessarily even the strongest Mutilate build in the expansion... well, I'm inclined to say that 53/0/18 is going to wind up back in the pack.
On the whole, it's going to have the same relation to 51/20 that 43/18 and 41/20 have at the moment - that is, 41/20 is better in most circumstances. And when you factor in that 51/20 is not necessarily even the strongest Mutilate build in the expansion... well, I'm inclined to say that 53/0/18 is going to wind up back in the pack.
Yes I'm aware of the current state of 41/20 and 43/0/18, I was just playing around trying to come up with possible mutilate builds for wotlk and this sparked my interest. I was also toying with a mutilate/preparation/dirty deeds/deadliness build for arena but I guess this is off topic for this thread.
Playing around with the talent calculator I came up with this and this. Seems like these would be very strong Mutilate builds, grabbing the poison talents and dagger spec seems like it would add significant dps. It's unfortunate that Cut to the Chase doesn't really seem that good right now, there doesn't seem to be much reason to go beyond the 41 talent point threshold in Assassination for raid dps.
You're overestimating the value of Dagger spec, at least in TBC terms. It's possible that finisher damage may be buffed enough to make it significantly better if you're using envenom a lot, but otherwise Opportunity represents a larger damage increase. Right now the big known seems to be whether there are enough decent deep assassination talent to justify skipping out on Opportunity and Blade Flurry in order to grab HfB. My current best candidates are 44/22/5, 41/25/5, and 51/20/0.....though I'm particularly uncertain about the points in the 51/20 build, I just ballparked the talents based on a recent Gorefiend parse and an assumption the poison damage will increase about 3x relative to other damage (due to the addition of 2x IP). Obviously there are serious problems with this approach, but it's a starting point.
On the whole, Turn the Tables doesn't strike me as particularly strong. It should be up most of the time, but the fact that it doesn't apply to our white damage or poisons would seem to really hurt it...even at 2% crit per talent point. Again, a significant buff to envenom and its inclusion as a regular part of our rotations seem the best arguments for a change of assessment, but we'll have to wait and see.
I have a couple things I was hoping to get clarification/instruction on, hopefully they are concise.
1. With the removal of Blessing of Salvation, aren't we simply going back to the position of pre-TBC horde guilds, where feint and vanish were both used to control rogue threat levels?
2. Currently, gear itemization on expertise is arranged so that we have fairly large amounts of the stat on only a few pieces of gear. With the introduction of both gems and enchants, it seems that we'll have a lot more chances to tweak the stat to where we want it in the upcoming expansion. Does the parry/dodge chance of trash versus bosses spike like the miss chance does? Or is it a flat .5% per level of mob over our character level?
I have a couple things I was hoping to get clarification/instruction on, hopefully they are concise.
1. With the removal of Blessing of Salvation, aren't we simply going back to the position of pre-TBC horde guilds, where feint and vanish were both used to control rogue threat levels?
2. Currently, gear itemization on expertise is arranged so that we have fairly large amounts of the stat on only a few pieces of gear. With the introduction of both gems and enchants, it seems that we'll have a lot more chances to tweak the stat to where we want it in the upcoming expansion. Does the parry/dodge chance of trash versus bosses spike like the miss chance does? Or is it a flat .5% per level of mob over our character level?
1. I would say it's a little too early to assume how often we will be using Feint and so on. Tanks threat is getting buffed with WotLK too, so while we definitely might have problems with threat I wouldn't hold my breath.
2. I believe it is a flat .5% per level above yours.
Do you guys have any opinion on a possible 53/0/18 build? I wonder what the numbers would be when getting both Blood Splatter and Serrated Blades together with mangle and trauma. Although I think it would be much more viable with some tweaks to CttC to encourage a Rupture/Envenom cycle.
I too would like to numbers around this build asked this previously though no one seems to want to try such a build. I understand there is a lot drawbacks from not going down the combat tree, but like you I am just curious.
I put this together and I wonder if anyone could crunch a few numbers around it please. I'm sorry, but I don't fully understand the mechincs of equations you guys all put together. If any could spend a few minutes, it would be greatly appreciated.
So, the first thing to note is that we don't really have any numbers on *any* specs right now, because there are just too many unknowns. Without having a good handle on what gear and buffs at 80 are going to look like, we can't do damage estimates. Without having all the new skill ranks in (notably envenom and poison), we can't do damage estimates. Hence, our ability to run numbers on specs as a whole is basically nil. We can make some estimates around specific talents, but that's about it.
That said, looking at your proposed spec, it does have some issues. The major one is that CttC just isn't very good, and you're dropping some talents points that are better in order to get it. This is particularly true since the presence of Blood Spatter and Serrated Blades imply that you expect to Rupture a lot with this build, which makes CttC almost totally useless. Similarly, with hit gear applying to poisons, Master Poisoner is a pretty minimal benefit. So I'd drop those 6 talent points and get, say, the last 2 points of Focused Attacks and 2/2 Fleet Footed. The last two points I don't have any good numbers around to say what's clearly best, but my guess would be that the answer is either the last two points in Improved Poisons, 2/2 Quick Recovery, or the last two points of Turn the Tables.
So, will the resulting spec be any good? Possibly. I feel confident in saying it'll be behind the 41/21/5+4 family of builds, and probably 51/20/0 as well, but by how much it's simply too early to say.
Note that it's expertise rating and not pure expertise and remember that as you level up to 80 the amount of expertise rating required for pure expertise will go up. I'm not sure, but I think we don't have any solid numbers at this point how much expertise rating is required for 1 expertise. Like hit rating, and while we do have talents for +hit, we still have to stack hit rating somewhat in order to get a decent +hit. I'd imagine this may be the case for expertise as well but probably not to such a drastic extent.
Vulajin and I made some estimates during the alpha; our best guess is that it's going to be about 7.567 expertise rating to the expertise at 80. Thus, assuming the mob dodge rate doesn't change (which is far from certain), it would take 122.5 expertise rating past WEx to hit the Expertise cap. With enchants and gems giving it, I wouldn't expect that to be too hard to do - but we'll see.
That said: it's entirely reasonable that Blizzard might change the mob dodge rate. At the moment it's fairly low and thus easy to cap, which limits their ability to use Expertise as a general stat on gear like they do hit, crit, etc. So it wouldn't totally surprise me to see the mob dodge rate bumped up a ways, to make Expertise a more itemizable stat. We'll have to wait and see how things look at 80.
I think we should hold off on posting builds, especially Mutilate, until Blizzard releases their plans for poisons. It seems like it will have a significant effect on what talents we would take, especially if poison damage is changed to scale with our gear.
On a side note, I don't see the point in taking Turn the Tables without taking Cut to the Chase. Since most in this thread seem to be rather unimpressed with CTTC, it doesn't seem that TTT will be a viable option either.
1. Will it break sheep and other CC?
2. Will it engage enemies that are not currently engaged?
3. Does it interrupt your swing timer?
4. Will it try to attack immune targets? (banished or whirlwinded targets)
On expertise its also possible that some bosses will have higher dodge than others. Actually the more one thinks about it, and devs wanting to make fights more dynamic. Having a boss P2 and gain 20% dodge/parry (have they fixed the parry /haste mechanic) sort of a MotheS for melee. Until we see any of the raid loot fights many things are just pure speculation.
Ok, I've been trolling this for a long time and I need to know some info if I could..
I've always been the standard cookie cutter combat sword spec until the badge fists came out (I had ToA/S2), since then I upgraded to the fists and changed my spec around to fit (cookie cutter combat fists). Now I've been reading that Aldriana's spreadsheet incorrectly modeled sword spec and undervalued it. Obviously doing the best I can in a raid is very important to me so I'm a bit concerned. So I punched in all my gear on Vulajin's sheet and came up with the following:
ToA/S2 = 2113.40 Vanir/Vanir = 2084.18 (spec was changed for each weapon type as well).
Ok, so the spreadsheet says it's higher.. but the problem I run into is switching back to swords I lose some stats (I lose 27ap, 4.36% crit, and the one I'm concerned about the 23(1.46%)haste rating but I gain 9 hit). The haste on the OH and passive attack speed on the MH fist is what concerns me about switching back to swords. With SnD going my attack speeds are as follows: ToA/S2 = 2.00/1.11 Vanir/Vanir = 1.8/1.08.
My question is, with everything added together (attack speed, crit, bit of ap) does sword spec still give enough of an advantage in DPS over dual vanir for myself?
(Wow Web Stats a link to a recent WWS, this was before I had T6 2pc, I had Swiftstrike shoulders on and this is fist spec)
Well the s/sheet calc will include the effect of the stats, so yes it looks like the swords are better as it includes all the latest mechanics as the Rogue community currently understand them to operate (and improving that understanding was what led to the Sword advance).
Hunters have better threat dumps than rogues, although last I heard they don't have a passive threat reduction like rogues do so need to pay someone more attention to it than we do. Meanwhile, while it's true that other classes have threat dumps, it's also true that ours is one of the better ones, and that we have a threat management ability outside of the dump. So while our threat management isn't necessarily a *lot* better than most classes, it's still among the strongest of all the classes. Also, the list of our primary competitors for raid slots - fury warrior, ret pally, enhancement shaman, feral druid (i.e., the other melee DPS classes) reads a lot like the list of classes without a threat dump. In the melee space, our aggro management really is a lot better. So I do think it's fair to say that threat-limited encounters work in the favor of rogues, on the whole.
Well, hunters don't have passive threat reduction, but they have the ranged buffer, which is almost as good. And anyway, they can FD quickly and very often, so they only have to pay attention for like the first 10-20 secondes into the fight (except for fights with lots of threat reset).
And though I recognize that rogues are a tiny bit better than most classes due to feint and instant reset, it's still very marginal, and not enough to be truly appart others in aggro management.
"a bit better", ok, but even something as "favored" feels a strong word for so little gain.
Originally Posted by Dorvan
You're overestimating the value of Dagger spec, at least in TBC terms. It's possible that finisher damage may be buffed enough to make it significantly better if you're using envenom a lot, but otherwise Opportunity represents a larger damage increase.
Note sure about that. Opportunity only works on the yellow attacks, while the dagger spec works on everything but poisons and rupture, and adds chances to get cp.
Seems pretty on-par to me.
Additionnally, dagger spec helps with the energy-restoring procs if you take Focused Attacks, even though it seems quite unimpressive for now and I don't think it's worth the talent points in it.
The best candidate I can think of for now is 43/28/0.
Of course, as many said, it's still lots of speculation, considering we don't know what the gear will be and how rogues will play with the new talents, but as extrapolation go, it feels like doing quite well.
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
I'm not sure anyone has considered this yet but with respect to Deadly Brew, Instant Poison is only a 20% proc rate while Deadly is 30%. Since there is no Deadly -> Instant included with the talent we should consider the reduction in proc rate for Deadly while using Instant and Deadly Brew. Being able to have Instant on both weapons will make up for this and it will be a dps increase but it's effectively reducing Deadly application rate by 33% per weapon resulting in an effective application rate of 36% I believe. This will have significant affects on Envenom, which could reduce the effectiveness of the finish significantly if you're regularly waiting on Deadly to stack up while you're full on combo points and even worse full on energy.
Admittedly, I have little experience with a Mutilate build, do people find they frequently lack the Deadly stack to Envenom if they don't have Deadly on both weapons?
07/24/08, 1:41 PM
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