I don't think it's fair to call Focus Magic a buff to poisons, as any damage you gain from it via poison procs is damage lost by some other caster in the raid who would normally be eating those charges. Thus, in terms of net DPS contribution to the raid, having poison eat charges of it doesn't really gain you anything.
One more change -- although admittedly a bigger deal in PVP, it's still pertinent in PVE as well.
It is still a huge deal in PvE anytime we have to interrupt. As it is now, if we know we have to interrupt at variable times, than we really cant do anything else (dont want to get stuck in a global cooldown or waiting for an energy tick), but with these two changes, all you really have to do is make sure that you have 10 energy (and even that isnt necessary if the cast is more than a second) and you can keep attacking.
It is still a huge deal in PvE anytime we have to interrupt. As it is now, if we know we have to interrupt at variable times, than we really cant do anything else (dont want to get stuck in a global cooldown or waiting for an energy tick), but with these two changes, all you really have to do is make sure that you have 10 energy (and even that isnt necessary if the cast is more than a second) and you can keep attacking.
Which is like what? Caribdis, Reliquary and Council (which I use Deadly Throw on anyways..)? If you lose a couple of Sinister Strikes due to trying to save globals (i.e. not spending energy), it's not a big deal since those fights aren't really DPS races anyways. Unless Blizzard plans to make interrupting an important part of a lot of fights in WotLK (which would be gimmicky/annoying) I don't see that this change really benefits us much.
Zyz a rogue in my guild arena tourney winner, Shadow Dance vid with new shadow graphics etc. I couldn't find the video on here yet.
Murder Spree isn't available yet, old stealth animations are back, shard of azzinoth!( we just got our first glaive after 7 months)
Which is like what? Caribdis, Reliquary and Council (which I use Deadly Throw on anyways..)? If you lose a couple of Sinister Strikes due to trying to save globals (i.e. not spending energy), it's not a big deal since those fights aren't really DPS races anyways. Unless Blizzard plans to make interrupting an important part of a lot of fights in WotLK (which would be gimmicky/annoying) I don't see that this change really benefits us much.
Maybe it doesn't benefit you much, but for the people who play with 400ms+ it's a very welcome change. It will make kicking much less of a headache.
I have been browsing this thread for a good portion of the morning and have yet to see (quite possible I have missed them) any posts on the raid viability of 41/25/5 or 41/26/4 for sustained damage. Looking at WWS reports, end-tier mutilate builds (41/20/0) pull around 2000 dps with about 60-65% being white swings, 30% mutilate attacks and the rest poisons, rupture, etc.
Adding 5% crit from dagger specialization adds 5% damage to both white and mutilate damage (without the considering the bonus CP generation Seal Fate). Adding 5% to 1800 dps (90% of 2000 dps) is 90 dps or 18 dps per point in dagger specialization.
Adding 20% damage to Mutilate takes it from 600 dps (30% of 2000 dps) to 720 dps which is 24 dps per point in Opportunity.
Unlike the poison talents late in the Assassination tree these abilities scale with your dps, so it could be possible with the push we have seen from Blizzard to put daggers back in the hands of rogues that skipping the new talents might be a viable option.
My first impression is that it will take 20 energy off the top end "effective" pool we work with. Assuming .5 seconds for latency + reaction time:
Current system:
Actual pool: 85 energy
Effective pool: 85 energy + 1.5 seconds of the current tick = 100 energy
New system:
Actual pool: 80 energy
Effective pool: 80 energy + .5 energy on average as a random value towards the next tick = 80.5
Given the .5 second assumption, we have a pool cap 5 energy below the current actual cap, and our effective pool cap is 19.5 (on average) below the old system. This should be even more evident in grinding situations, where you could achieve an effective pool of 115 energy before breaking stealth on a mob.
Its a nice change for energy starvation situations, but those mostly occur in PvP or when using a cycle which is highly dependent on Potency procs.
I have been browsing this thread for a good portion of the morning and have yet to see (quite possible I have missed them) any posts on the raid viability of 41/25/5 or 41/26/4 for sustained damage. Looking at WWS reports, end-tier mutilate builds (41/20/0) pull around 2000 dps with about 60-65% being white swings, 30% mutilate attacks and the rest poisons, rupture, etc.
Adding 5% crit from dagger specialization adds 5% damage to both white and mutilate damage (without the considering the bonus CP generation Seal Fate). Adding 5% to 1800 dps (90% of 2000 dps) is 90 dps or 18 dps per point in dagger specialization.
Adding 20% damage to Mutilate takes it from 600 dps (30% of 2000 dps) to 720 dps which is 24 dps per point in Opportunity.
Unlike the poison talents late in the Assassination tree these abilities scale with your dps, so it could be possible with the push we have seen from Blizzard to put daggers back in the hands of rogues that skipping the new talents might be a viable option.
Briefly:
--Having Opp and Dagger spec available to Mut builds is certainly helpful as a minimum DPS guarantee from our 10 new talent points. It's too early to say what if any deep assassination talents will be better than these options
--5% crit is less than a 5% white/mut damage increase because your current crit rate is non-zero
--We don't have nearly enough information yet to know whether the additional 10 talent points and/or the deep assassination talent will put Mut on par with combat...and we won't know until we get a lot more info about ability damage values at 80: along with gear, any mechanics changes, and having more talents actually implemented.
--Having Opp and Dagger spec available to Mut builds is certainly helpful as a minimum DPS guarantee from our 10 new talent points. It's too early to say what if any deep assassination talents will be better than these options
--5% crit is less than a 5% white/mut damage increase because your current crit rate is non-zero
--We don't have nearly enough information yet to know whether the additional 10 talent points and/or the deep assassination talent will put Mut on par with combat...and we won't know until we get a lot more info about ability damage values at 80: along with gear, any mechanics changes, and having more talents actually implemented.
Right, I forgot to include DR into the crit calc. Doh! I agree it is still very early - I just don't see a lot of scalability from the end of the Assassination tree which make me sad as I raided assassination daggers in wow classic. HfB looks promising, but unreliable without becoming energy starved.
My first impression is that it will take 20 energy off the top end "effective" pool we work with. Assuming .5 seconds for latency + reaction time:
Current system:
Actual pool: 85 energy
Effective pool: 85 energy + 1.5 seconds of the current tick = 100 energy
New system:
Actual pool: 80 energy
Effective pool: 80 energy + .5 energy on average as a random value towards the next tick = 80.5
Given the .5 second assumption, we have a pool cap 5 energy below the current actual cap, and our effective pool cap is 19.5 (on average) below the old system. This should be even more evident in grinding situations, where you could achieve an effective pool of 115 energy before breaking stealth on a mob.
Its a nice change for energy starvation situations, but those mostly occur in PvP or when using a cycle which is highly dependent on Potency procs.
Yes, no more waiting for 0.2s before next energy tick before cheap shotting, this is really only evident in PvP though. If you are waiting for '120' energy before opening in a grinding situation then you are going slower than if you just waded in.
The amount of times I've been on 23 energy or 39 and wanted to kick or sinister strike, I'd love this change.
Anyone want to take bets on how long we'll be keeping at least two pieces of t6 for the amazing set bonus? Hell, we might be killing Arthas with the belt and boots.
My guess is that the answer is "not really very long at all". Don't get me wrong, it's a great set bonus and we'll definitely hold on to 2-piece T6 longer than we otherwise would because of it... but the inevitable march of gear progression will in time swallow the benefit, I'm fairly confident.
Why? A couple of reasons. First off, if our early estimates are correct, we're going to see more of a move towards Mutilate builds, which scale less well with haste than combat builds do. So the value of the set bonus is somewhat lessened.
Secondly, the set bonus is currently worth something like 150 AP for us. Now, this is a nice bonus, to be sure, and it will scale with gear to some extent. But lets consider, for a moment, the level of gear difference we expect to see between level 70 and level 80.
So, lets see. Band of the Kirin Tor has an extra 3 agility, 9 stamina, 34 crit rating, 3 haste rating, and 42 AP. That works out to something like a 125 AP upgrade, give or take. Now, admittedly, it's an early build, and the stats may change, and so on... but the point remains, the one data point we have indicates that items that are 100+ AP upgrades are very much a reality.
As an alternate way of getting a handle on the gear inflation - consider, if you will, the new gems we've seen. The current best gems give benefits of, for instance, 10 agi. The expansion ones give twice that - 20 agi. Hence, each gem socket increases in value by around 25 AP, so the value of, say, a typical 3-socket chestpiece goes up by 70 or 80 AP from that alone. Given which, I have a hard time imagining that the new gear won't be at least that far ahead of existing gear in it's own right.
So, from the limited datapoints we have, I think it's reasonable to expect that we'll be getting 100-150 point upgrades over Sunwell loot in WotLK raid instances. Hence, how long is a 150 point set bonus - or even a 250 point set bonus - going to last? I mean, I can certainly see it surviving T7, but it seems to me pretty likely that by T8 there will be something better. Hence I seriously doubt we'll still be using it when Arthas rolls around.
Anyone want to take bets on how long we'll be keeping at least two pieces of t6 for the amazing set bonus? Hell, we might be killing Arthas with the belt and boots.
Probably into beginning level 80 raiding - Naxx gear was viable to start Kara, but not much beyond that. That's my bet - It may outlast blues, but your first purples will replace it.
As far as the energy regen goes, how does this effect rogue mechanics? The way the new system is implemented, it only seems logical that energy regen will be handled client side (thats a LOT of updates). Currently, and correct me if I am wrong, but I seemed to have read something a long time ago that energy regen was calculated server side (resulting in the occasional energy ticks of 21 - due to server lag?) Other than the obvious changes to energy pooling (which has always been a bigger portion of mutilate playstyle), how significant of a change to rogue mechanics is this?
P.S. It's nice to talk about something substantial for once. I think the last 2 beta patch notes included a grand total of one tooltip change for rogues...
Probably into beginning level 80 raiding - Naxx gear was viable to start Kara, but not much beyond that. That's my bet - It may outlast blues, but your first purples will replace it.
The T6 2pc bonus is way too good. I believe it would last a good while at 80, mostly because you can still get bonuses from the new sets and keep the 2pc T6. "Would" because they will probably change it (most likely to haste rating instead), just like they did to 3pc Trans.
Edit: Ugh, missed Ald's post. Maybe it won't last *that* long but it will be definitely a nice thing to have.
Yes, no more waiting for 0.2s before next energy tick before cheap shotting, this is really only evident in PvP though. If you are waiting for '120' energy before opening in a grinding situation then you are going slower than if you just waded in.
The amount of times I've been on 23 energy or 39 and wanted to kick or sinister strike, I'd love this change.
Depends whether or not deep combat manages to pull its shit together, especially with things that reward energy pooling (ashtongue talisman, though it obviously won't be viable at 80). I hate to see my energy at 100, because that means I've "wasted" some portion of my energy. With the new system, combat potency procs are less likely to bounce you over the energy cap, and you won't have such a large portion of "wasted" energy. Granted, with a 44+Assassination build looking the best at present, possibly even 47 from the "6% crit when someone in raid dodges/parries/blocks" talent, combat potency won't be available and the assassination equivalent is significantly less "bursty"
Again, I'm terrible at modelling energy mechanics, but I'd be interested in getting some sort of sense of, at 70 with Ashtongue and pooling energy, how much the new energy mechanic would improve my DPS (or better, how much energy I 'waste' because I'm sitting on a finisher at 60 energy and get a tick and 2 CP procs back to back nailing me past 100 nowadays).
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.
Again, I'm terrible at modelling energy mechanics, but I'd be interested in getting some sort of sense of, at 70 with Ashtongue and pooling energy, how much the new energy mechanic would improve my DPS (or better, how much energy I 'waste' because I'm sitting on a finisher at 60 energy and get a tick and 2 CP procs back to back nailing me past 100 nowadays).
I suppose it's probably "worse" for pooling with AToL, since you could throw a 5cp fnisher at the last millisecond before the 20 energy tick, thus having more energy to spend while under AToL's buff.
How much getting over the energy cap effects your DPS really depends on how often it happens, it also could be a whole energy tick or a CP proc, either way both are player-made mistakes and are easy to get rid of.
I'd like to talk about rogue consumables in WotLK. I've been thinking about this for a little bit, and while I have brought it up at a few other places, the topic doesn't seem to cause the sort of uproar that I had hoped. I would appreciate any comments or input since I respect the posters here a great deal, but the reality of it is I'm just looking for a sanity check here.
If you'll notice the next agility-based elixir in WotLK is the [Elixir of Mighty Agility]. You'll notice that it adds 45 Agility.
But if you look in your bags now, you'll notice that the [Elixir of Major Agility] that many of us currently use gives 35 Agility and 20 crit rating.
Now, is it just me or isn't the new elixir a significant downgrade across all the current builds? Maybe Agility is just going to get much more valuable than crit rating as your level approaches 80? I don't know. I don't understand this at all. It doesn't even make sense from an item level point of view! Can anyone help me?
And if someone reading this is in the beta, how about finding one of these new elixirs and hitting the ALT+Left click for some feedback of justice?
It is impossible to say whether 10 agility will be better or worse than 20 crit rating for us at level 80. We don't know enough about the base stats we would have at that gear level, since we don't know what level 80 gear looks like.
It is impossible to say whether 10 agility will be better or worse than 20 crit rating for us at level 80. We don't know enough about the base stats we would have at that gear level, since we don't know what level 80 gear looks like.
A real good point, and one I had considered. But what still gets me is that by looking at the way Blizzard itemizes, it seems to me that they consider 1 Agility to be equivalent to 1 Crit Rating. For example both the Delicate and Smooth gems have the same quantity of Agility and Crit rating respectively (including the new ones from Northrend.) If this is the case, then it would even seem like a downgrade using Blizzard's class-independent itemization system.
I guess we'll have to wait until we're deep into the expansion to be sure, but as of now I'm skeptical.
They did the same thing with [Brilliant Wizard Oil] and [Superior Wizard Oil] for casters in TBC. The readily available consumables are equivalent, though maybe not equal, to some other things you could get if you spent more time farming or farmed in an area with fewer other useful items. Basically it will come down to whether the extra .25-.4% crit you would be exchanging with 11 AP is worth farming Terocone at level 80.
2pc T6 seems to scale really well to me though, so while you may be seeing upgrades of 100-150 points on even smaller slots... 5% haste is going to be scaling that value obviously.
So while people are estimating the AP value to be something like 150 at level 70, it might be more like 300 at level 80. Possibly even more depending how weapon DPS scales.
Profession Exclusive DPS Stats Breakdown for Rogues (as of Beta 8681patch)
Alchemy (Alchemical Blood) Note: assuming 25% increase for consumables you can make
Benefits (elixirs/flasks)
- Mighty Agility(45 agi) - 11.25agi(base)
- Wrath (90ap) - 22.5ap
- Flask of Endless Rage (180ap) - 45ap
Benefits (pots in a 6 min fight scenario)
- Potion of Speed (20.83 avg haste rating) - 5.2haste rating
Blacksmithing
- ?
Enchanting
- Ring - 40 ap per ring or 20 haste rating per ring
Enginerring
- ?
Herbalism
BOP plants (6 min scenario)
- Fire Leaf - 66 ap avg
Inscription
- ?
Leatherworking
Drums (6 min scenario)
- Dark War - 18.75ap/11 sdi avg per party mem Note: not taking into account 15% movement increase effects
- Great Battle - 23.75 haste rating avg per party mem
- Percision - 23.75 hit rating avg per party mem
Equipment
- ?
Leg Armor (BOP epic vs BOE epic) Note: didn't include stam leg armor
- Wyrmscale - + 40ap/21crit rating
Jewelcrafting
BOP Gems (vs Purple epic gems) Note: BOP gems are r/y/b gems and should fill any meta gem requirement
- Bright Dragon's Eye (50ap) - +30 ap -15sta or +40ap - 10agi/15sta
Mining
- 35 sta
Skinning
- 25 crit rating
Tailoring
- not including in this list
I'm sorry if this list isn't fully complete or inaccurate. I think the stats of items listed are accurate to the best of my knowledge. I didn't include equations as there's enough clutter already and in some cases, ignored stam benefits. The Jewelcrafting weights were based on the assumption that Rogues would still use a meta gem with 2 blue gem requirements. I also decided to include both ap and agi profession specific buffs. I assume 1 agi would be better than 2 ap for all builds but didn't reflect that assumption in the list. Additionally, talent bonuses such as vitality or sinister calling are not reflected in the list.
It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for Inscription, as it would not surprise me in the slightest if that turns out to be pretty good in terms of personal benefit. However, in the meantime, let's arrange those professions in decreasing order of largest benefit, assuming agi/crit/hit/haste/etc. are all worth 2 EP and AP is worth 1 (weights won't be exact, of course, but should be good enough for a ballpark figure).
* Leatherworking: 82 personal + 48 group = 322 total group benefit.
* Enchanting: 80
* Herbalism: 66
* Alchemy: 55
* Skinning: 50
* Jewelcrafting: 30
* Mining: 0
* Tailoring: 0
Now, it'll be interesting to see what the come up with in terms of the remaining professions; but for the moment, it appears that LW is the undisputed king of professions. It has the lead based solely on personal benefit, never mind what you get for drums. For the second profession, Enchanting looks to have the early lead, but it will surprise me absolutely not at all if one or more of Inscription, Jewelcrafting, and Engineering catches up with it in time.
07/29/08, 1:39 PM
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