After having read the changes the blue poster mentions there, having seen the conversion table whiteknight created and well thinking a second about itemisation on leather without +hit ... Am i the only one seeing us rogues in trouble there if we have to massively socket for +hit where druids could socket for dps stats because they need like 17% less hit which would be around 560 hit rating at 32.79 rating per hit% at lvl 80?
After having read the changes the blue poster mentions there, having seen the conversion table whiteknight created and well thinking a second about itemisation on leather without +hit ... Am i the only one seeing us rogues in trouble there if we have to massively socket for +hit where druids could socket for dps stats because they need like 17% less hit which would be around 560 hit rating at 32.79 rating per hit% at lvl 80?
Well one solution could be the bumping of Precision from 5% to 10% to sweeten the situation.
Even tough they changed itemization budgets so there is more room for much more statpoints, this could become a problem. It would be lovely to see that they dump Throwing Spec and introduce a new talent that addresses the + hit problem we will have. (or rework the Dual Wield mechanics)
Reworking the dw-mechanics would also affect Fury-Warriors and Enhancement-Shaman who already don't need the massive amounts of +hit like Combat-Rogues do.
While the idea of increasing dw-spec to 10% sounds good, I think we really have to wait until we see how all the changes work out at 80 with lvl80 blues/ first raid tier epics.
Reworking the dw-mechanics would also affect Fury-Warriors and Enhancement-Shaman who already don't need the massive amounts of +hit like Combat-Rogues do.
While the idea of increasing dw-spec to 10% sounds good, I think we really have to wait until we see how all the changes work out at 80 with lvl80 blues/ first raid tier epics.
Well what Im really saying is, that if they want to rework dual wield this is the opportunity to do so.
The mechanic is tailored to vanilla wow and we all know how bad it got in BC until they introduced SWP T6 items. Since blizzard is committed to WoW, and WotLK wont be the last expansion according to them, this problem will persist and possibly bite them in the rear in the future.
It would be nice if Beta Playing Rogues could take a long hard look on the gear progress from 70-77, and share some info about what direction Blizz is going towards to.
With the unification of Hit, Haste and Crit for spells and melee, this would be the perfect time to adjust the amount of hit needed for Melee %, so it's the same amount as a % of spellhit needs.
I think it's too early to worry about blizzard's comment on hit. Even if the core pieces contain "low" amounts of hit, it is likely that your weapons, trinkets, rings, neck and cloak will be more rogue (or at least dw) specific, so you could make up the hit there.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
After having read the changes the blue poster mentions there, having seen the conversion table whiteknight created and well thinking a second about itemisation on leather without +hit ... Am i the only one seeing us rogues in trouble there if we have to massively socket for +hit where druids could socket for dps stats because they need like 17% less hit which would be around 560 hit rating at 32.79 rating per hit% at lvl 80?
I think you're missing the point. Hit IS a dps stat, if agility was better we'd be socketing for agility. We have a higher miss rate because we have the advantage of dual wielding (which is clearly a good trade off) which druids don't have. Given that, we just socket the stat that increases our DPS the most, which may be hit, and it also may not be.
After having read the changes the blue poster mentions there, having seen the conversion table whiteknight created and well thinking a second about itemisation on leather without +hit ... Am i the only one seeing us rogues in trouble there if we have to massively socket for +hit where druids could socket for dps stats because they need like 17% less hit which would be around 560 hit rating at 32.79 rating per hit% at lvl 80?
To paraphrase my response to the last person who expressed this ill-conceived concern...when did hit rating become something other than a DPS stat?
Vulajin, the concern about hit rating is valid. It stands to reason that Blizzard's stated desire to limit hit rating on item base-stats so that our leather is usable by more classes will disadvantage us, all other things held equal. It is a reasonable assumption that items will still have 1-2% to hit, 2-3 sockets and given the hit gems we've seen, that we'll have to focus on this in order to cap ourselves.
Regardless of whatever the prevailing raid spec turns out to be, it bears mentioning that the "other guys" will be able to use their socketing to cap out on armor pen and expertise, since hit is trivial for them to gain. No other class currently benefits as much as we do from hit stacking, and that all adds up to us being at a disadvantage from stat balancing. I'm also not a fan of having to defend ourselves against even more people vying for leather pieces.
I think you're missing the point. Hit IS a dps stat, if agility was better we'd be socketing for agility. We have a higher miss rate because we have the advantage of dual wielding (which is clearly a good trade off) which druids don't have. Given that, we just socket the stat that increases our DPS the most, which may be hit, and it also may not be.
Mutilate rogues currently socket for agility. If all current signs remain, and mutilate is going to be king in Wrath, then agi is the preferred dps stat. As well, there is a drum for hit rating - If we socket to be near the cap, the hit rating drum will give you wasted hit.
The other thing to bear in mind is that hit might not be as good for us in the expansion. Consider: what are the three largest factors that cause hit to be just plain better than other stats?
* Windfury. Windfury is perhaps the single biggest factor in the powerful scaling of hit rating, for the reason that damage done by WF (which is considerable) scales quadratically with hit. With the change to WF totem, while it's still a considerable source of damage, it no longer double-passes on hit rating, hence the value of hit is lowered somewhat.
* Combat Potency and Sword Spec. This comes down to the fact that combat builds reign supreme right now; in the expansion, it's appearing that we might be moving more towards assassination builds for which hit is less essential.
Now, without having the final itemization, talents, skills, etc. it is of course impossible to say what the ultimate balance point is going to be. But I do think it's reasonable to assume the value of hit may diminish somewhat, so that having less of it on our itemization will not be crippling.
That said, I do think having low hit on gear directly will be a problem, since unless I quite miss my guess the optimal gemming strategy for almost everyone will be to stack ArPen gems (though again, we'll have to wait for the final numbers to be sure).
Blizzard can easily avoid any issues by simply including a lot more gem sockets in gear than they previously did. Imagine if most of your gear had 3 gem sockets -- and you could place a 20 hit gem in each (which is what the Wrath epic gems give). It won't really be an issue, IMO.
That said, it's not even clear that hit rating will actually be the best stat for rogues. However, at least one blue post did suggest that they wanted rogues to socket for hit rating. But do keep in mind that Wrath will include gems that give expertise, armor penetration, and haste rating -- three options that were not previously available, and that we might find superior to hit rating when all the proper calculations are made.
Vulajin, the concern about hit rating is valid. It stands to reason that Blizzard's stated desire to limit hit rating on item base-stats so that our leather is usable by more classes will disadvantage us, all other things held equal. It is a reasonable assumption that items will still have 1-2% to hit, 2-3 sockets and given the hit gems we've seen, that we'll have to focus on this in order to cap ourselves.
Regardless of whatever the prevailing raid spec turns out to be, it bears mentioning that the "other guys" will be able to use their socketing to cap out on armor pen and expertise, since hit is trivial for them to gain. No other class currently benefits as much as we do from hit stacking, and that all adds up to us being at a disadvantage from stat balancing. I'm also not a fan of having to defend ourselves against even more people vying for leather pieces.
As I said before, there's nothing wrong with socketing for hit if we have to. You worry about your DPS, if hit gives more dps then you socket for it, if not then socket agility/armor penetration/whatever. If we socket hit in the expansion pack while they socket armor penetration, it's because hit is BETTER than armor penetration for us. We're not losing anything by not being able to socket armor penetration while they get to -- the stats themselves don't matter, your DPS does. There is nothing that says we have to cap out on hit rating either.
Blizzard can easily avoid any issues by simply including a lot more gem sockets in gear than they previously did. Imagine if most of your gear had 3 gem sockets -- and you could place a 20 hit gem in each (which is what the Wrath epic gems give). It won't really be an issue, IMO.
The issue with increasing the number of sockets like this is that it makes the ArPen strategy even more powerful. The problem is this: ArPen is a stat that gets better the more you have. Right now, this is controlled, as there are only so many items that give it, not all of which are actually very good. Hence, you're limited in practice to around 600-1000 ArPen in a good set of gear as a rogue.
In the expansion, however, every single socket can be used to give you ArPen. Imagine, if you will, that there was an ArPen gem right now that gave 70 ArPen. You could stick it in 8 or 10 sockets and boost yourself by a good 600 ArPen above what you already have, which pushes it fairly strongly into increasing returns territory. The fact that you can now specifically choose to stack ArPen without worry about the tradeoffs in terms of having to use good or bad items is a powerful advantage - I'm actually surprised that Blizzard put in an ArPen gem for exactly this reason.
Originally Posted by Arindelest
As I said before, there's nothing wrong with socketing for hit if we have to. You worry about your DPS, if hit gives more dps then you socket for it, if not then socket agility/armor penetration/whatever. If we socket hit in the expansion pack while they socket armor penetration, it's because hit is BETTER than armor penetration for us. We're not losing anything by not being able to socket armor penetration while they get to -- the stats themselves don't matter, your DPS does. There is nothing that says we have to cap out on hit rating either.
This is to some extent true, but also a bit misleading. Yes, if we socket for hit, it will be because it's best; if we socket for ArPen, it will be because *that's* best. However, having to choose which of two very important stats to get screwed on is not exactly a desirable place to be. If the items are designed with the idea in mind that most other classes get all the stats they need and can customize using their favorite choice of sockets, and we *have* to use hit gems to make the gear at all functional - that removes a lot of flexibility in our itemization.
Now, the fact is, we don't know if it is going to be as important - it probably won't be. So it's also entirely possible that we'll just be able to function with less hit and it'll be fine. But if we can't, that's a concern.
Of course, what I suspect will ultimately happen is sort of what we have right now. There will be some items with agi/hit/etc. on him that will be designed to be better for rogues; there will be items with str/crit/etc. on them that will be better for ferals; and there will be items with agi/ArPen/AP that will be good for both. They'll probably have more of the last category than they do at current, but I don't believe for an instant that there won't be at least a few pieces of gear with desirable rogue stats on them.
The issue with increasing the number of sockets like this is that it makes the ArPen strategy even more powerful. The problem is this: ArPen is a stat that gets better the more you have. Right now, this is controlled, as there are only so many items that give it, not all of which are actually very good. Hence, you're limited in practice to around 600-1000 ArPen in a good set of gear as a rogue.
In the expansion, however, every single socket can be used to give you ArPen. Imagine, if you will, that there was an ArPen gem right now that gave 70 ArPen. You could stick it in 8 or 10 sockets and boost yourself by a good 600 ArPen above what you already have, which pushes it fairly strongly into increasing returns territory. The fact that you can now specifically choose to stack ArPen without worry about the tradeoffs in terms of having to use good or bad items is a powerful advantage - I'm actually surprised that Blizzard put in an ArPen gem for exactly this reason.
A couple things to note:
1) It's always possible that Blizzard will remove the armor penetration gems. I wouldn't be surprised if they did this.
2) I recall reading about the possibility of Blizzard implementing an "armor penetration rating" that would award less and less actual ArPen as your ArPen increases, supposedly at the proper calculation such that armor penetration rating becomes a linear stat relative to DPS increase. If this were to be implemented, this appears that it would solve the problem you describe, although I'm not even sure it's possible to create a stat that works perfectly linear with the current armor formula (although does anyone know if the armor formula is changing at all like it did in BC?). However, even if it's only CLOSE to linear, it would probably be effective at nullifying the "whole is greater than the sum of its part" situation with stacking armor penetration.
To be clear, I actually have no idea where I first read this -- I think it may have just been someone speculating on a way to fix the issue. So I don't mean to suggest they are even considering this idea, but I do see merit in it regardless. This change might also make some cloth classes happier in PVP, where ArPen in season 3 gear has generated a large amount of complaints.
As I said before, there's nothing wrong with socketing for hit if we have to. You worry about your DPS, if hit gives more dps then you socket for it, if not then socket agility/armor penetration/whatever. If we socket hit in the expansion pack while they socket armor penetration, it's because hit is BETTER than armor penetration for us. We're not losing anything by not being able to socket armor penetration while they get to -- the stats themselves don't matter, your DPS does. There is nothing that says we have to cap out on hit rating either.
The problem is not that we will be gemming the best stat. That is arbitrary. The actual problem is that currently hit is worth more to rogues than Blizard's itemization costs for hit. Blizard's formula puts 1 hit equal to 2 AP, but for rogues it is actually .9 hit is equal to 2 AP. While this may change, currently rogues get more, per item level, for hit, than for many other stats, at least in comparison to other classes wearing the same gear. If you take the hit off and replace it with stats that benefit the other classes more than us, then they will be getting more, per item level, than we are. The fact is that Bliz is changing rogue gear to be better for other classes than it is for ourselves comparatively.
This may be a pointless discussion if hit becomes worth less and actually falls in line with Blizard's itemization cost, which may be the case if the highest DPS is Mutilate.
The other thing to bear in mind is that hit might not be as good for us in the expansion. Consider: what are the three largest factors that cause hit to be just plain better than other stats?
* Windfury.
* Combat Potency and Sword Spec.
That said, I do think having low hit on gear directly will be a problem, since unless I quite miss my guess the optimal gemming strategy for almost everyone will be to stack ArPen gems (though again, we'll have to wait for the final numbers to be sure).
I am aware of the reasons why hit is currently our most efficient dps stat, Aldriana, and also quite aware of the math behind it which the rogue community has so thoroughly refined. I didn't mention it explicitly, but the armor pen issue is the exact thing I had in mind. What I'm saying is that the other dps classes will get to have their cake and eat it, too. If Blizzard wants to completely change dynamics, then we'll have to see what they produce, but the alarming declaration by their item team to starve rogues on hit simply so that our gear can be used by more classes is a blatant statement that they have no idea exactly what this will do in terms of our relative placement by comparison. It's not "how much do we get?" It's "how much do we get in comparison to the other guys?" It doesn't matter if you put more sockets on our gear, that's simply giving *the other guy* more flexibility and ability to stack even more stats. If they want to remove the DW penalty for rogues, then you're talking an entirely different ball game.
Allowing the non-dw physical dps classes to take full advantage of all the offensive stats will simply give them a marked advantage. Sure, they could change the way our formulae work to skew it heavily in favor of stacking other stats, but the fact is they have revealed no such plans and those they *have* shared point to their failure to comprehend how things work for us. This is my main concern.
Just to echo other statements I've seen on this issue, but what EXACTLY is the problem with other classes getting to socket for their best DPS stats, and us getting to socket for ours? If ArPen is better than hit, we'll socket it and be in the same situation that an Enhance shaman is in now - sure, you miss, but you don't care because you're doing more dps regardless.
This is a completely silly thing to worry about. Aldriana's gone over it time and time again, even when you're not hit capped for specials, the value of hit doesn't increase that much more than it is after you are hit capped for specials. There's no magic +hit number. NONE. So we'll either gem for it, or we won't, and it won't be the end of the world. :P
(Obviously, this is all subject to change, but worrying about how it might change is even sillier still.)
Remember also that only 8 pieces of gear you wear are leather. Thus, the 8 leather slots can be itemized as balanced for both druids and rogues, while your rings, trinkets, necks, backs, and weapons are itemized for DW classes. Hunters don't need much hit rating, while Enhancement shaman can benefit from extra. Warriors and DW DK's (if they exist) won't complain about extra hit rating, while paladins and 2H DK's don't need much. So, for every armor level, leather, mail, and plate, there are classes or specs that won't look for hit rating AND classes or specs that are going to want more hit rating. As such, there's a good chance that miscellaneous gear slots and the weapon slots will have good items stacked with hit rating.
Allowing the non-dw physical dps classes to take full advantage of all the offensive stats will simply give them a marked advantage. Sure, they could change the way our formulae work to skew it heavily in favor of stacking other stats, but the fact is they have revealed no such plans and those they *have* shared point to their failure to comprehend how things work for us. This is my main concern.
Now that BC is winding down and with the final numbers rolling around in terms of DPS placement, I think we may already see this. BM hunters have completely replaced rogues in the top DPS showings for Brutallus, save for a few rogues. This is due to the fact that they have much more itemization options due to the lower threshold for their hit cap and the ability to wear rogue leather as well as their own mail armor options. Seeing a BM hunter in rogue leather and gemming completely for agility simply because the rogue pieces had already enough +hit for them to cap is commonplace.
As such, this places a rogue at a disadvantage by relying on a warrior's battleshout and a shammy's unleashed rage to bring their attack power up to par. Nevermind the fact that hunters can boost their own attack power via AotH and HM.
The whole point of the change was to make cat druid itemization in Wrath better than it is in BC. It sounds like the argument some of you are making is that cat druids will be able to benefit from rogue gear more than they currently can, while rogues don't really gain anything from the change -- this is exactly Blizzard's intention.
Blizzard has stated already that they want to reduce the number of types of gear. They made a HUGE change by combing spell damage and healing into the same stat. This is really just more of the same idea.
If rogues really find themselves lacking in DPS compared to cat druids, they can just buff rogue abilities or talents. There's no need for rogues to benefit more from the same piece of gear compared to a cat druid.
08/01/08, 5:02 AM
in 
Similar Threads
