PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 37

• Aldriana · 08/03/08, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Keegantir

Problem is that different specs scale differently with gear. If Bliz balanced 2-3 specs to do the same DPS at one gear level, they will be different at a different gear level, and most people will pick the spec that is doing the most DPS once gear level spreads them out.

It would be great if there were 2-3 specs that could do equal DPS, and I believe that this is what Bliz wants, but the truth of the matter is that it is just not possible.

Well, I think the key point is this: there will always be a "best" setup at any given gear level - a combination of weapons, armor, and spec that will outDPS any other option. That's inevitable, and that's fine. However, one can't always achieve the ideal gear, so the relevant piece of information is how viable the alternatives are.

For instance, the problem with the current state of balance is that using swords is basically always better than using daggers - even if the daggers are two full tiers of quality higher. In the ideal world, while swords might still be better, if you have a choice between daggers from tier n or swords from tier n-1, you should be better off with the higher-tier weapons.

Now, getting balance right down to this level is of course challenging, and it remains to be seen how well they can pull it off; but I think saying that the ultimate goal is to have the specs be close in overall quality is a fair statement.

silotallaja · 08/03/08, 6:18 PM

Having all specs close to eachother, and yet keeping them so different in nature will fail hard, as it has till now. Even now the specs we have are somewhat equal, given the same tier weapons (well, not combat specs, but i mean the other trees). Only problem is that combat spec is the easiest to model and the dps output in an ideal fight is superior, but mutilate will draw a big gap ahead it on encounters where your DPE has to be high (such as mobile fights) and you can't measure dps increase a prep will give to a hemo rogue, when it has saved his ass on an encounter, where the threat of dying is high. One of such is teron, where having double vanish for his death buff will give hemo rogue a huge advantage, the other place is on ROS, where ghostly combined with evasion will enlarge the survivability alot thus dps.

I was running BT with muti build and i can tell that on half of the bosses, im beating the crap out of combat brothers and on half of them, im falling back the same ammount. The thruth is that the specs are equal if you look at the whole instance.

We will always be facing the same thing and the "highest DPS build" will be the one what will be the easiest to model.

Salamir · 08/03/08, 6:23 PM

I see the question of 2 (or more) viable raid specs differently.

Yes, if our only function is dps, then there will only ever be one best spec. Trying to balance 2 different ways to play the class and result in nearly identical dps for each gear plateau would be a daunting task.

But look at how hunters are talented. If you want to put out the most dps, BM is likely your best bet. If you want to put out good dps, while having nice group buffs that are desirable, then Survival is right for you. 2 specs, both raid viable.

That's what rogues need if they're going to have a choice of competitive specs. Otherwise, your choice is best dps, or a sacrifice for style.

• Neto- · 08/03/08, 7:34 PM

In this game, in its current form, there's always going to be a spec better than the other for PvE DPS as a rogue, period. They'd have to either change weapon specializations or give one of our other trees a highly desirable raid buff, such as Survival for hunters, otherwise scaling will always be the deciding factor.

Densor · 08/03/08, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by Doovad

The only problem is that mutilate is very suseptable to the RNG. Both ruthlessness has to proc and mutilate has to crit in order to keep that cycle going with 4 CP finishers. When one or the other dont proc, you either have to settle with less of a chance to proc relentless strikes, losing HfB, or losing the finisher chain (by mutilating again). If relentless strikes doesnt proc, then you have to settle with the choices again at the end of the next FW.

Other than bad RNG numbers, all those factors are already in my calculations. If you do get a bad string of RNGs and end up without enough energy to continue the cycle, then pool energy, use SnD instead of evis if SnD is lose or just CB the evis and refresh to a 5 stack SnD, and then return with a new pool of energy. You lose FW on at most 1 finisher, which might be SnD anyway, so it doesn't matter, and still should be able to keep your cycle.

• Vulajin · 08/03/08, 8:47 PM

Originally Posted by Densor

I fail to see why you can't use mutilate, HfB, and a finisher within 10 seconds. Total energy cost is 60 + 30 + 35 with 10 to 20 energy refunded on average from Relentless Strikes. Worst case scenario, that's 115 energy every 10 seconds, which means you need 5 Focused Attacks procs in those 10 seconds. With 1.9 speed daggers, you average 19.42 attacks in 10 seconds with SnD and WF. Thus, in the worst case scenario with a 35% crit rate, you're likely to lose 9.46 energy per finisher. However, that would only occur 10% of the time. 15% of the time, you lose 4.46 energy per finisher. 30% of the time, you lose 3.56 energy per finisher. And 45% of the time, you gain 1.44 energy per finisher.

That leaves you with an average energy debt of 2.035 for every finisher. Starting with an energy pool of 110, that means you will have problems with energy after 9 minutes. As all those calculations assume you never have to refresh SnD (due to CttC) and you never are able to use HfB for free due to a raid debuff, I don't see an issue with FW and having it up on chain finishers.

This is an unrealistic model of Mutilate cycles. Compared to running a normal 3+s/5r cycle (or, in the event that CttC becomes good, 4+r/4+e) and using Hunger for Blood at arbitrary times and sometimes losing Find Weakness uptime, there is essentially no gain to using a rigid one-Mutilate cycle as you've suggested. Actually, it's far better to stick to a rigid two-Mutilate cycle.

The real reason Hunger for Blood isn't that great is simply the fact that it requires investing a lot of energy in something that isn't Mutilate. The overall DPS gain even if you sustain the 15% buff is more like 5% compared to just not using Hunger for Blood.

(edit) Besides which, if each finisher requires more than 100 energy, using Hunger for Blood exactly once per finisher doesn't guarantee that you sustain the buff.

Rhaego_TI · 08/03/08, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by drumbum

A couple things to note:

...

2) I recall reading about the possibility of Blizzard implementing an "armor penetration rating" that would award less and less actual ArPen as your ArPen increases, supposedly at the proper calculation such that armor penetration rating becomes a linear stat relative to DPS increase. If this were to be implemented, this appears that it would solve the problem you describe, although I'm not even sure it's possible to create a stat that works perfectly linear with the current armor formula (although does anyone know if the armor formula is changing at all like it did in BC?). However, even if it's only CLOSE to linear, it would probably be effective at nullifying the "whole is greater than the sum of its part" situation with stacking armor penetration.

To be clear, I actually have no idea where I first read this -- I think it may have just been someone speculating on a way to fix the issue. So I don't mean to suggest they are even considering this idea, but I do see merit in it regardless. This change might also make some cloth classes happier in PVP, where ArPen in season 3 gear has generated a large amount of complaints.

If the Armour Penetration Rating system would be set up as a percentage value, would that be what you had in mind? Using simple numbers, having each point of ArP lower a target's "Reduces Physical Damage taken by" .05% would eliminate the increasing returns, and would also help to balance it in pvp between using it on a plate wearing target versus a cloth wearing one.

Originally Posted by kamyuen8

I am sorry if this one is being discussed before.

...

Also, another noob question, SS says my best rotation is 4s5r, my starter actually is 1s4s5r, is that the best one? Please advice

The 4s5r rotation applies throughout the fight. However, you generally want to get the Slice and Dice buff on yourself as soon as you can in that fight, so dropping a quick one or two point SnD immediately is better than building to your four point SnD first.

Densor · 08/03/08, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

This is an unrealistic model of Mutilate cycles. Compared to running a normal 3+s/5r cycle (or, in the event that CttC becomes good, 4+r/4+e) and using Hunger for Blood at arbitrary times and sometimes losing Find Weakness uptime, there is essentially no gain to using a rigid one-Mutilate cycle as you've suggested. Actually, it's far better to stick to a rigid two-Mutilate cycle.

The real reason Hunger for Blood isn't that great is simply the fact that it requires investing a lot of energy in something that isn't Mutilate. The overall DPS gain even if you sustain the 15% buff is more like 5% compared to just not using Hunger for Blood.

(edit) Besides which, if each finisher requires more than 100 energy, using Hunger for Blood exactly once per finisher doesn't guarantee that you sustain the buff.

Because of the way Eviscerate damage is calculated (x + CP*y + CP*AP*z) the damage loss from using a 3 CP Evis and a 2 CP Evis compared to a 5 CP Evis is less than if you were using Rupture, although it is still a damage loss. However, with more finishers, comes more Ruthlessness procs and you don't have lost CP that you can get with double mutilates, so it is more like comparing two 3 CP Evis's to a 5 CP Evis, or a 3 CP and a 4 CP to a 5 CP at higher crit rates. Plus, FW will be up at least 95% of the time on your Eviscerates compared to less than that (not sure how many exactly) for a 2 mutilate cycle.

It isn't something that can be compared accurately until we get spreadsheets, but it COULD be viable, which means it shouldn't be dismissed just because it doesn't work with the current mechanics. I think that with CttC, TtT, and FA, single mutilate finishers could result in better DPS than double mutilate finishers.

Current SnD/Rupture cycles for mutilate have all mutilates and rupture benefit from FW and keep SnD up at all times. Trying to expand that cycle to work with CttC starts running into problems due to issues with energy pooling. Therefore moving to a single mutilate cycle costs a bit more energy due to finishers, but also allows everything to be done under FW.

The real issue comes when adding in HfB, as that definitely hurts the cycle due to energy issues. When I did my calculations several pages back, HfB barely resulted in more DPS. However, it would be better DPS if you weren't spending as much energy to keep it up, due to debuffs you could clear.

My initial point was that HfB could be used fine without the debuffs up to make it good. Whether that is better than not using it with the same cycle or whether the cycle itself is worthless is entirely another question, which can't be determined until spreadsheets come out.

Also, I should point out that theoretical energy math and actual energy math are going to be different since refreshing HfB exactly every 10 seconds is impossible, so the cycle would go to 9.5 or 9 seconds, which would be a pretty big loss in damage, probably making it worthless.

• Vulajin · 08/03/08, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Densor

Because of the way Eviscerate damage is calculated (x + CP*y + CP*AP*z) the damage loss from using a 3 CP Evis and a 2 CP Evis compared to a 5 CP Evis is less than if you were using Rupture, although it is still a damage loss. However, with more finishers, comes more Ruthlessness procs and you don't have lost CP that you can get with double mutilates, so it is more like comparing two 3 CP Evis's to a 5 CP Evis, or a 3 CP and a 4 CP to a 5 CP at higher crit rates. Plus, FW will be up at least 95% of the time on your Eviscerates compared to less than that (not sure how many exactly) for a 2 mutilate cycle.

First, the AP coefficient is 6% per combo point spent on Rupture in Wrath, so there is no special difference between downranking below a certain CP threshold for either finisher. Even in the current implementation the damage of Rupture only especially drops off below 3 CP, but even 3 CP Ruptures are very nearly as good as 5 CP Ruptures while 3 CP Eviscerates are hardly ever worth using.

Also, be accurate: you are not comparing two 2-4 CP Eviscerates against one 4-5 CP Eviscerate because you cannot perform both using the same amount of energy. It is conclusively established (via spreadsheets) that consistently high-CP finisher cycles are superior, even with Mutliate and the chance to finish more often, even if Find Weakness doesn't necessarily always apply to the finishers.

Might I add that I have a spreadsheet that models all of this stuff other than Cut to the Chase, which isn't currently a useful talent, so I'm hardly just guessing here.

Densor · 08/04/08, 1:28 AM

Well, I'm only talking about CttC cycles here, as there is almost no other reason to have HfB or to consider using 2-4 CP eviscerates instead of 4-5 CP eviscerates. I suppose a 51/20 build without CttC might be competitive with 45/20/5+1 builds. I'm not sure.

• Vulajin · 08/04/08, 1:39 AM

The problem is CttC won't allow you to skip Slice indefinitely no matter how you use it. In its current form, you can get up to ~2 chances to Eviscerate or Envenom during a 5-CP Slice duration, then if you didn't proc CttC you have to refresh Slice or it'll drop. Repeatedly performing 2-4 CP Eviscerate components only gains you one extra chance to proc CttC per cycle, which is great, but really not worth the wasted energy which could otherwise be spent on Mutilate. The optimal cycle is something like 4+s/4+e…, where the ellipsis indicates that you repeat the 4+e component until CttC doesn't proc, then refresh Slice. In this cycle, Hunger for Blood isn't sustainable.

The funny thing is, the more energy you throw away on finishers, the less energy you'll really be able to afford to spend on Hunger for Blood. I've covered a lot of these concerns in my feedback post on the beta rogue forums, which I'm sure you've seen linked and possibly read.

Zahra · 08/04/08, 12:00 PM

Hey all long time reader first time poster, Just wanted to see what your opinions were on a talent build. From looking at all the new 51 point talents none of them seem outstanding. I just started messing with talent builds last night and one of the combat builds for pve i've came up with is this WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator I think that could be a good talent build, Any critique?

Left · 08/04/08, 12:57 PM

As a "long time reader", I would assume you've seen the discussion of the last few pages stating that it's really hard to evaluate any WotLK talent builds right now since we don't have a firm grasp of the mechanics? There is, however, some speculation on Prey on the Weak several pages back. I won't repeat it here.

What I will say is that I doubt that any build which goes 21 points into Subtlety but skips Hemo is going to be competitive.

Cally · 08/04/08, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Densor

Well, I'm only talking about CttC cycles here, as there is almost no other reason to have HfB or to consider using 2-4 CP eviscerates instead of 4-5 CP eviscerates. I suppose a 51/20 build without CttC might be competitive with 45/20/5+1 builds. I'm not sure.

I think Blizzard had the right idea with CttC but implemented it incorrectly. For one, it is too subject to the RNG and you would need a high crit chance for it to be viable. It should be more along the lines of the new Spriest talent, Pain and Suffering, where mind flay has a 100% chance of refreshing SW:P. ie. SnD needs 100% chance of refreshing.

Overall, the new talents are kind of unexciting and the rogue class is still more of a x combo points do this, x combo points use this best finisher type of play. I guess there is some sort of synergy between finishers with CttC but it would be nice if the game allowed rogues to use all their finishers in some sort of synergistic behavior. For example, rupture increases eviscerate damage by x%. And perhaps, have expose armor stack with sunder armor up to a certain cap and have expose armor apply an additional modifier for rupture/eviscerate damage. So maybe a cycle would be more along the lines of use combo point building move, SnD, x points use EA, x points use rupture, x points use eviscerate.

tortugapir8 · 08/04/08, 3:38 PM

I'm not feeling really feeling any excitement of the new tier 9/10/11 talents, they all seem pretty lackluster. While I know it's early, and like many Rogues looking the explore Mutilate again which seems like it's becoming the new top-end spec, has anyone taken a more in-depth look at the tri-spec Hemo/Sword builds? Something along the lines of 16/31/24? I've tried messing with the spreadsheet, and I do see a pretty big boost setting these talents up, but since I can't setup a possible Mutilate spec with the new expansion it's hard to put it against any frame of reference.

◊ Shaker · 08/04/08, 4:09 PM

Honestly, most of the speculation should just wait until the Rogue polish patch comes by - we're late in the cycle, for sure, but there should be some larger changes to the talents coming through, which will give us a bit better ground to talk from.

Kaveli · 08/04/08, 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by Shaker

Honestly, most of the speculation should just wait until the Rogue polish patch comes by - we're late in the cycle, for sure, but there should be some larger changes to the talents coming through, which will give us a bit better ground to talk from.

I really hope this is the case even though I haven't seen any mention of a rogue re-up polish patch. Seems like the only thing they're changing is a little here a little there.

I'm hoping they find a way to cake Duel Wield Spec and Precision into rogue passives and not talented through middle combat tree. Those talents are just to good to just slap in the middle of one tree, It will really limited us on the high end to yet another cycle of combat specs. We either should just get those talents caked in or not at all because it takes a lot of flexibility out of PVE dpsing.

Even if you're mutilate or you're going for deep sub (for god knows what reason) you'd still go into combat to get those talents, regardless.

Just doesn't seem right to me when all classes are gaining more flexibility we're still stuck with the same talents that are to good to be in the same tree or not just given to all rogues.

P.S. For goodness sake they really need to fix the top of Combat and Sub, I can't be the only person with no desire to put more points into Lightning reflexes or MOD just to get to the next tier. Rogues have to waste so much talent points to get talents worth a dang it's not even funny.

• Aldriana · 08/04/08, 5:46 PM

If I were going to ask for an ability to be made passive, I'd ask for Relentless Strikes long before I worried about Precision or DW Spec. Don't get me wrong: Precision and DW Spec are good talents, but the reason a lot of builds want to go 20 points deep in combat has little to do with the monolithic power of any one talent and more to do with the fact that there's a lot of good stuff there. Relentless Strikes, on the other hand, is singlehandedly the reason people go 11 points into assassination with all builds. It's not that the stuff before it isn't good - it is. But it's all stuff that we could do without and/or replace with other talents. But Relentless Strikes... there has never been a viable PvE build that didn't have Relentless Strikes. Not once in recorded history. So I'd be a lot more interested in seeing it made passive than the mid-combat talents, myself.

And yes, the top-end of all the talent trees suck right now. But given that there have only been two changes to rogues since the earliest alpha leak, while other classes have gotten pages and pages of them, I think it's fair to assume that they're still planning some adjustment. Particularly since uninspiring talent trees is only the beginning of the problem - one must also consider the fact that the new skills we're getting are pretty lame from a PvE perspective. The new sap is still a pale shadow of sheep, Dismantle will be at best a gimmick ability on boss fights, and Fan of Knives, while cool in theory, is in practice almost useless.

Now, of course, if another couple weeks pass and the other classes are all settling down and we *still* haven't seen anything - okay, then maybe it will be time to worry. But right now... it's very early, nothing is set in stone, and so I think any concern over the specific details at this stage is premature.

Ashere · 08/05/08, 4:01 AM

On the other hand, Relentless Strikes is easily in reach for any thought over build you may come up with, while still leaving you points to use anywhere else. DW on the otherhand leaves a lot less options for placing your talentpoints around, since the investment to reach it is higher.

Ideally, each tree would have similar DPS components on similar tiers, costing a similar amount of talentpoints to max. So Relentles Strikes would be on the same tier where DW is, for example, while another talented mechanic giving a similar DPS increase appears on the same tier in Sub. It would make balancing a LOT easier for Blizz. But at the same time, it would take half the fun out of developing your talent builds. Part of the fun IS figuring out things like dropping 10 points in one tree, adding 5 to each other one and see what happens. Especially since gear still has some effect on how things will turn out. Not as much as it used to maybe, but with the right combination of gear, odd specs may suddenly turn out viable.

Dorvan · 08/05/08, 4:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ashere

On the other hand, Relentless Strikes is easily in reach for any thought over build you may come up with, while still leaving you points to use anywhere else. DW on the otherhand leaves a lot less options for placing your talentpoints around, since the investment to reach it is higher.

Ideally, each tree would have similar DPS components on similar tiers, costing a similar amount of talentpoints to max. So Relentles Strikes would be on the same tier where DW is, for example, while another talented mechanic giving a similar DPS increase appears on the same tier in Sub. It would make balancing a LOT easier for Blizz. But at the same time, it would take half the fun out of developing your talent builds. Part of the fun IS figuring out things like dropping 10 points in one tree, adding 5 to each other one and see what happens. Especially since gear still has some effect on how things will turn out. Not as much as it used to maybe, but with the right combination of gear, odd specs may suddenly turn out viable.

Perhaps stating the obvious, but Relentless strikes prevents some otherwise potentially interesting combat/sub specs from being considered, so while it's not buried deep in the tree, it's not "in easy reach for any build" either

Iliyan · 08/05/08, 4:23 AM

Relentless is in the perfect spot... When you get relentless don't forget your getting 5% crit, 2% dmg against anything relevant, 60% chance per finisher to gain a cp OR 30% BS crit chance, and 20% per CP chance to gain 25 energy after doing a finisher... In my opinion that is worth it...

Oh, and here are some( in my opinion) cookie cutter builds:

PvP:
29/0/42
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

16/0/55
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

53/0/18 (HfB Mutilate, pvp)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

46/0/25
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

PvE:
44/27/0 --> My spec
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

17/54/0 Fist/Sword spec
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

19/52/0 --> "Cookiest" cutter of them all
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

15/51/5 --> Combat Daggers, might be quite good, now that it reaches lethality..
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

11/39/21 ( Trispecc hemo without Deadliness but with 4/5 Potency)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

21/0/50 ( I guess this *could* work)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
alternatively 11/10/50 ( probably better)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

51/20/0 (HfB PvE, has potential, no CttC, cycle issues)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

There may be more, but I can't think of any atm.

EDIT: Not sure if anyone noticed, but Ruthlessness specifically states meele finishing moves, yet it works for Deadly Throw( a ranged finishing move)

• Aldriana · 08/05/08, 4:55 AM

I think you're underestimating slightly just how essential Relentless Strikes is. Declaring Relentless Strikes to be a reasonable analog of DW Spec is fallacious. Relentless Strikes - the single talent point - is, from a PvE perspect, better than *all 5 points* of Precision, and comparable to 3 points in DW Spec *by itself* for most builds. When I say that there hasn't been a single viable build without it, I mean it in the strictest sense of the words: dating back to MC days, if you look at all the remotely talent specs that people have played with, they *all* have Relentless Strikes. While DW Spec is certainly good, and common, it's just not in the same league, and there *have* been reasonable builds without it (30/8/12+1 pre-exp, 43/0/18 post-exp - note that these aren't necessarily *top* builds, but they at least see some play).
So what are the implications of this? Well, for one, it means combat/subtlety builds are DOA - for instance, 40/21 at current, and 50/21 (or maybe 49/22) in the expansion both look like potentially interesting/good talent specs - except that the loss of Relentless Strikes just cripples them.

I agree that all talent trees should have something good in them to create trade-offs between various options. The problem right now is that the single most valuable talent point in existent is 11 points deep in assassination, and not exactly buried under 10 points of useless filler. And what that means is that at current, there is no viable build that does not take those 11 points, which tosses the whole notion of "choice" right out the window. And given that this has been true for... going on 4 years, it strikes me as fairly reasonable to suggest it might be ripe for changing.

DW Spec and early combat is not so much overly good; it's just that it's the best filler. Early assassination you've already taken (as it's essential), and early Subtlety is just this side of useless until you get to Hemo (Serrated Blades is nice, but that's 3 talent points out of 20). So for lack of anything better, after taking your defining talent points (whatever they are) and the essential assassination block, by process of elimination early combat is how you finish out. So while I certainly wouldn't *mind* having them untalented, I think they're a less likely candidate for that treatment than Relentless Strikes is.

Edit: Note, for instance, that of the 10 talent specs that Iliyan proposes, all 10 of them have Relentless Strikes and only 5 have any Combat at all. Not that I necessarily think those are the best possible talent specs - though they're not bad - but I think it's highly illustrative of my point.

Iliyan · 08/05/08, 5:09 AM

Well, the very nature of relentless strikes makes EVERYONE and their mothers want to have it... its that good, and I agree that there will NEVER be a good build without it.

I do not agree, however, that it should be reduced, if you would reduce it, the only option is to put it in the t2 section, so you would have 6+/20+/xx+ builds that would become the stub of pve, and lets face it, it isn't all that different from 11+/20+/xx+ In full combat builds, there isn't anything to do any more once you reach 51.. you go full assassination after that, so that stays the same, you only get to pick your poison, so to speak. Assassination builds take it to the top anyway.. so again, no change.

The only place where that relentless strikes change you are proposing would make ANY difference is the new attempt at a full sub BS/Ambush build, I've tried making one, but I agree it is too hard, so I came up with 11/10/50 I do not think the build would work all that great though... who knows, maybe the reduced energy cost of BS will make up for it..

• Aldriana · 08/05/08, 5:50 AM

If you'll note, the context of the discussion was a proposal that certain combat talents be converted to trained abilities, and a counterargument that Relentless Strikes would be a better choice. I agree that reducing Relentless Strikes in tier or moving it to a different tree wouldn't solve the problem; having it as a trained ability, on the other hand, would have definite benefits to the class.

That said, we are sort of straying into the realm of meaningless speculation at this point, so we should probably put a stop to this line of inquiry. If they make one or more of our abilities trained, great. If not, hopefully we'll get some other good stuff instead. Either way, we'll have to wait and see what they come up with.

VeeV's · 08/05/08, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by Iliyan

Well, the very nature of relentless strikes makes EVERYONE and their mothers want to have it... its that good, and I agree that there will NEVER be a good build without it.

I do not agree, however, that it should be reduced, if you would reduce it, the only option is to put it in the t2 section, so you would have 6+/20+/xx+ builds that would become the stub of pve, and lets face it, it isn't all that different from 11+/20+/xx+ In full combat builds, there isn't anything to do any more once you reach 51.. you go full assassination after that, so that stays the same, you only get to pick your poison, so to speak. Assassination builds take it to the top anyway.. so again, no change.

The only place where that relentless strikes change you are proposing would make ANY difference is the new attempt at a full sub BS/Ambush build, I've tried making one, but I agree it is too hard, so I came up with 11/10/50 I do not think the build would work all that great though... who knows, maybe the reduced energy cost of BS will make up for it..

Well at this point in the beta we can suggest basically anything as we havent been polished yet.

The cornerstone status of Relentless Strikes in PvE wont be solved by moving it between tiers exactly like you say, (unless it gets into T1) as you basically have to get it no matter what or where it is.

There are two solutions to this problem:

One is make it trainable, and thus make it available universally. (though making it cost gold only would be a balancing issue)

Two ditch it as a talent and move it to inscription as a Greater Glyph that you can equip in your Glyph Slots. (thus making it balanceable in any way the devs see it fit)