Crits have no special increased threat factor other than dealing more damage, but as a rogue your TPS is directly based on your DPS. Omen does not compensate for latency in any fashion, it simply reports your threat. TPS calculations aren't necessarily accurate, though, since they're instantaneous calculations and depend on whether your DPS suddenly spikes up or down.

It could also be possible that the particular version of Omen isn't properly negating Mace stuns for mobs that are immune. I believe the stun itself has a threat component and maybe this is being erroneously added to his threat.

Another potential source of threat is certain types of heals, including Prayer of Mending and the final heal of Lifebloom. Both of these appear in your combat log as though the heal was cast by yourself (i.e., you would be credited with the healing, not the priest or druid), but I'm not sure if they also generate threat on the person being healed as well. If it does, that could mean the other rogue was simply getting healed with more of these types of spells to bring him above you on the threat table.

That is a very welcome change. If totems do not become raid-wide, or if there are few shammies in the raid, we will be less dependent on WF, which causes a LOT of frustrations today since it's such a huge buff.

I agree with your premise here, but your syllogism is flawed. Equal time in either area does not net the same gains. If they did, your assumptions would be valid.

Let's take a moment and consider basic advantages of the sets:

PvE gear > PvP gear inside of instances
PvP gear > PvE gear inside of arenas
PvE gear = PvP gear in world PvE (negligible advantage)
PvP gear > PvE gear in world PvP (huge Advantage)

I feel your assertion that PvE gear actually helps you kill world PvE mobs any more efficiently than PvP gear is absurd. The difference between the performances of these sets on world PvE mobs is so slight that it is insane to try and quantify it. In fact, one could argue that due to PvE sets being gemmed with raid buffs, boss stats, and limited damage taken in mind that the Raid PvE set is actually worse than the PvP set for world PvE. Most gemming for rogues PvP sets are set up for max benefit for DpS with no buffs, and against equal level mobs. Most raiding PvE sets have much less health than their PvP equals. There is no real advantage for a PvE set over a PvP set in world PvE.


I guess your missing my point. If serious PvPers had a huge advantage in the BGs and Arenas, and I had a huge advantage in raids and instances, but we both had equal advantages in the areas we share(the rest of the world), I probably wouldn’t have any issues at all. What has developed is a definite advantage in world PvP and PvE for those who spend their time in BGs and Arenas. Who hasn't run into the bored PvPer, with 400 resil, and more health than your MT, who constantly ganks you with no problem at all? Being dead, time and time again, negates any advantage my PvE set may have had. Besides.. do players in PvP gear have less of a chance to mine a node or pick and herb?

I feel what you should have said was: The system favors those who PvP. Period, end of sentence. I could spend 40 hours a week in Heroics and raids. I could get full T6 and Sunwell gear and badge loot, and still end up some S2 casuals bitch while trying to do dailies. When you have a class of players with this huge of an advantage in 2/3 areas of the game, it's imbalanced and unfair. Add to that the fact that Blizz seems to think that balancing the PvE abilities and talents around PvP and arenas is a good idea, and you end up with a subclass with a serious disadvantage.

I don’t have the answers, but I can definitely see the problems. Am I alone here?

edit: quote error

I just have to say, as someone in full T6, if a S2 casual jumped me, he'd get his ass handed to him pretty handily. If a full S4 rogue jumped me, it'd be a good fight and while definitely in his favor, more because he got the jump on me than because of gear. I can stand toe to toe in my pve gear with a rogue in his pvp gear. The gear is reasonably well balanced in this way (you lose a little dps, and gain a little survivability, but without a healer in the situation, the fight won't go long enough for it to make a huge difference).

Honestly, looking at your gear, if you're getting killed by solo rogues in S2 gear, you're probably just not the best pvper. While that's certainly an issue for YOU, it's not an issue for the rogue class in general.

I don't post here very much, but I feel competent enough to post on this particular subject.

My guild is a small 'casual' guild, particularly by the standards of the people who frequent these forums. We are currently undergoing a debate on exactly this issue of PvP vs. PvE gearing. Since we are too small to raid, the consensus is basically that gaining the PvP gear available to us is much easier, requires less coordination, and is superior to PvE gear available to us, with the possible exception of our tank.

This is of concern to a few members of my guild. We can follow theorycraft, but are not very proficient in performing our own. (Aldriana might remember a conversation we had a while ago.)

In any event, I will be following at least this side discussion fairly closely.

I agree with your friend. As a rogue (overpowered) I really do find pvp much more fun/entertaining/absorbing than most pve - not to mention the far superior pvp "loot system" (you get X arena rating for X points per week which will get you exactly the gear that you want after X weeks - no Dragonspine BS).

Also, while I try to stay away from unbased claims and I haven't tested this because my pve set is way better than my pvp one, I believe a good pvp set is superior to a good pve set for world pve for a rogue. You'll only have (need) 5 or 6% hit, and most world pve mobs are 70 or under, so having 300+ hit for encounters is an enormous waste of stats that would be much better used in your pvp set toward ap/agi and crit. Not to mention you'll fare better on a pvp server in a populated farming spot when you have to engage in pvp to keep farming :P

Eh, I find that a solid combat spec for raiding does just fine for minimal PvP - granted, I'm on a PvE server, but I do PvP regularly in BGs and Arenas. Things like undodgable KS, being able to burst with AR/BF are very solid Rogue vs Rogue abilities.

Honestly, you just need more practice. If this is that large a concern for you, take a few hours a week and go do battlegrounds, fix your keybindings so you have quicker access to the things you need, and just prepare yourself for the realities of PvE on a PvP server.

This is 100% untrue. Hit rating up to 300 (19% + 5% precision) is effective against even level targets, at which point you're capped. More than that is ineffective, yes, but having 300 is not an enormous waste of stats.

Well, the first thing I'd note is that there's nothing stopping you from respeccing to a PvP spec for farming yourself. I don't think it's necessarily a good idea, but you could try it.

Second, regarding your earlier point about PvP vs PvE gear for farming; well, it's true that PvP rogues are more used to planning things out for unbuffed combat... but they're also somewhat operating under the assumption that they're getting healed through the damage input of another character, and so forth. Thus, PvP gear and socketing tends to spend an awful lot of itemization budget on stamina and resilience, which really does nothing in world PvE - in my PvE gear I kill stuff fast enough that I can literally go for an hour without needing to stop and heal, because nothing lives long enough to do significant damage to me. Thus, any defensive stats at all are just wasted, and I'm fairly confident that, optimized for buffed or not, I still do more damage than a S3 rogue would, and thus farm faster.

Lets be clear: most of my experience is on PvE servers, and what alts I have on PvP servers aren't to the point where they're doing endgame content, so I can't really comment on the world PvP situation. So it's entirely possible that world PvE is more unequal than I would expect. On the other hand, I have had former guildmates that made it rather high up the arena rankings wearing only minimal PvP gear (like, the trinket and the MH sword, and that's about it), so I have reason to believe that PvP in PvE gear can work and is not totally unbalanced. So I would say the situation is something like this: PvE gear is much stronger than PvP in instances; in PvP, both world and arena, PvP gear holds some advantage, but a smaller one. In world PvE, they're pretty close, but PvE gear probably does have the advantage.

So, that said, is their some favoritism towards PvP gear? Probably by a bit on PvP servers, but not on PvE servers (and in either case, I don't think the problem is necessarily that large, though I may feel otherwise when my PvP alt reaches 70). On the other hand, even if there is something of an advantage to PvP gear on a PvP server... well, you *did* choose to play on a PvP server, which implies a certain willingness to play the PvP game... so if you try to avoid it entirely, I guess it's not too surprising that that works against you.

I agree... to some extent. They're not as entirely separate as they might be, which is sort of an unfortunate situation. The OH situation requiring PvP to compete was not ideal, and I hope it's not repeated. And the need for a PvP trinket is somewhat irksome as well (though there's actually not that many fights that truly require it - I've done every fight in the game short of M'uru without using it). On the other hand, PvE spills back into PvP to some extent as well - there's a number of pieces of PvE gear that are quite good for arena (Berserker's Call being the first example that springs to mind). So I do think it would be nice if the separation was a little more pronounced - for instance, making good weapons for all PvE specs available via badges rather than needing to arena for them. On the other hand, the amount of PvP required to actually be completely viable in PvE is relatively small, so I'm not sure how big of a problem it really is at the moment.