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Old 07/22/08, 1:46 PM   #706
Left
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Paladin
 
Darkspear
Yeah, you basically hit the key points. Mostly normalization kills it for daggers.

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Old 07/22/08, 1:52 PM   #707
path411
Von Kaiser
 
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Undead Death Knight
 
Bonechewer
Okay, thanks. Wanted to make sure I didn't overlook something.

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Old 07/22/08, 2:36 PM   #708
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Interesting news of the day: in Wrath, all ranks of Rupture gain 6% of your AP per combo point across the duration of the ability (currently 4% for 1CP, 10% for 2CP, 18% for 3CP, 21% for 4CP, 24% for 5CP). All ranks of Eviscerate gain 3% of your AP per combo point on the minimum damage, and 7% of your AP per combo point on the maximum damage, for an average of 5% of your AP per combo point (currently 3% per CP). All ranks of Envenom gain 7% of your AP per combo point (currently 3% per CP). All ranks of Garrote gain 42% of your AP across the duration (currently 18%).

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 07/22/08, 2:52 PM   #709
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Human Rogue
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Yeah, you basically hit the key points. Mostly normalization kills it for daggers.
Well, that and if you don't have DW Spec, that would just obliterates its damage.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

Kurisu's BSG Reference Sheet

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Old 07/22/08, 3:06 PM   #710
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Interesting news of the day: in Wrath, all ranks of Rupture gain 6% of your AP per combo point across the duration of the ability (currently 4% for 1CP, 10% for 2CP, 18% for 3CP, 21% for 4CP, 24% for 5CP). All ranks of Eviscerate gain 3% of your AP per combo point on the minimum damage, and 7% of your AP per combo point on the maximum damage, for an average of 5% of your AP per combo point (currently 3% per CP). All ranks of Envenom gain 7% of your AP per combo point (currently 3% per CP). All ranks of Garrote gain 42% of your AP across the duration (currently 18%).
As expected, they're making finishers a higher portion of our damage; what this means is that good cycle selection and management is more important - gone are the days where one can reach 93% of our damage potential with SnD alone.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, if Rupture is 6/12/18/24/30 now, that means it's 1.5/2.4/3/3.43/3.75 percent of your AP per tick, as opposed to the current 1/2/3/3/3. The immediate implications of this is that it makes using undersized ruptures somewhat less desirable than it currently is, but removes the current discontinuity where 3 point ruptures are significantly more worth using than the smaller ones.

Secondly, in a raid-buffed environment, we have Mangle boosting our rupture damage, and mitigation from armor does not apply. Hence, in practice it's 7.8% of our AP to each point, or 9.36% with Blood Spatter, or 10.14% with Serrated Blades. Meanwhile, Eviscerate gets up to +21% damage from Talents, plus 1.4x (or so) from the chance to crit, mitigated by perhaps a factor of .8 by armor. Hence, in practice, the 5% per point works out to something closer to 6.5%. And Envenom has +20% from Talents, and 1.4x from crit, and is not subject to armor, so gives us something like 11.5% in practice. So my guess would be that at low gear levels Rupture is still probably the way to go, but at higher gear levels it seems likely that Envenom will catch up. However, we'll need some better numbers on what raid-buffed crit/AP/ArPen/etc. look at level 80 before we can work out all the details.

Speaking of which: do we have numbers on the base (non-AP) damage of the finishing moves? That would be helpful for making comparisons.

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Old 07/22/08, 3:15 PM   #711
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Eviscerate
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft
Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft

All ranks of Eviscerate keep the exact same damage range but gain 4% of your AP per CP on the high end, increasing the overall damage by 2% of your AP per CP.

Envenom
Rupture - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rupture - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rupture - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rupture - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rupture - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rupture - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rupture - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rupture - Spell - World of Warcraft
Rupture - Spell - World of Warcraft

All ranks of Rupture keep the exact same base damage but increase by portions of your AP.

Envenom:
Envenom - Spell - World of Warcraft
Envenom - Spell - World of Warcraft

For example, the current rank of Envenom loses 32 damage per CP but gains 4% AP per, meaning you gain damage if you had 800 AP or more.

Last edited by Vulajin : 07/22/08 at 3:30 PM.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 07/22/08, 3:24 PM   #712
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
So, to clarify: there are currently two new ranks of Eviscerate and Rupture, but no new rank of Envenom? That's... surprising. Hopefully they'll add in a new Envenom rank or two, or the AP changes may proved to be for naught.

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Old 07/22/08, 3:28 PM   #713
 Maestroquark
What Would You Have Me Do?
 
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Ramala
Orc Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Bah, too slow on spell ranks.

Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, to clarify: there are currently two new ranks of Eviscerate and Rupture, but no new rank of Envenom? That's... surprising. Hopefully they'll add in a new Envenom rank or two, or the AP changes may proved to be for naught.
Don't trust poisons yet. There's no new poisons at all past 70, and that's suspicious to say the least. My hope is that they're making poisons scale, and just reworking all the base numbers and thus aren't in yet.

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Old 07/22/08, 3:29 PM   #714
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Mal'Ganis
There are also no new ranks of any poisons, so I'm pretty confident it's an oversight, or else they just haven't gotten around to it, rather than intentional omission.

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 07/22/08, 3:46 PM   #715
Eulenspiegel
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Whisperwind
A quick aside from the current conversation - I've been trying to follow some of the threat changes in Wrath, and wondered what impact they may have on rogues in WoLK. First of all, and most significantly, Blessing of Salvation is GONE, replaced with Hand of Salvation.

"Blessing of Salvation renamed Hand of Salvation, which reduces total threat of the target by 2% per second for 10 seconds while also reducing all damage and healing done by 10%. 2 minute cooldown."

Also, no more tranquil air totem (I'm not sure how much this was used anyway):

"Tranquil Air Totem has been removed. (Threat is being addressed by modifications to the base threat of players and/or "baked" into tanking abilities.)"

This means that no class will have the party passive threat reduction option either. Salvation will be an emergency cast from the paladins (probably going to warlocks often because of the shadow threat coefficient). I've heard mention of tanks getting increased threat in the xpac (see above), but no actual figures on how much buffing they will get. As far as people wanting rogues to be more viable in end game, I would think that classes that can easily drop aggro would be more desirable than in TBC. I seriously doubt that Blizzard is going to arbitrarily increase tank threat by 30% to eliminate that Salv requirement, especially with the new Hand of Salv (which will probably be used on CD).

Also, there are two new ranks of feint available in the expansion (still questionable if the reduction will even be worth having it on your bar, as it is essentially worthless at the moment).

Anyone else have any other input on how threat changes may impact the end game viability of rogues?

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Old 07/22/08, 3:51 PM   #716
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
I seriously doubt that Blizzard is going to arbitrarily increase tank threat by 30% to eliminate that Salv requirement, especially with the new Hand of Salv (which will probably be used on CD).
What would lead you to believe this? What possible reason would they have to remove Blessing of Salvation and Tranquil Air Totem from the game, and then not buff tank threat by 30% to accommodate that change? In what sense is a 30% tank threat compensation buff "arbitrary"?

Originally Posted by Enervate
Yep, still a fucking idiot.

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Old 07/22/08, 4:03 PM   #717
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
It's not immediately clear whether or not tanks will get a full 30% increase, but I bet they get pretty close to that. It seems to me the major purpose of this change is to reduce the paladin requirement in raids by one. Currently, you really want 3-4 pallies in raids to get all the blessings; now that can be reduced by one to 2-3, which is more in line with the "2.5 members of each class" number.

They might also make threat a bit more gear-dependent, causing a more complex itemization picture for tanks with tradeoffs between aggro and survivability, which I could see being interesting/good.

However, I suspect at the high end they won't tighten the aggro situation by more than 5 or 10%, since doing more would be annoying at best and crippling at worst.

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Old 07/22/08, 8:43 PM   #718
Eulenspiegel
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
What would lead you to believe this? What possible reason would they have to remove Blessing of Salvation and Tranquil Air Totem from the game, and then not buff tank threat by 30% to accommodate that change? In what sense is a 30% tank threat compensation buff "arbitrary"?
I have seen no math or indications at all to support any percentage that tank threat will be buffed at. For all we know, Blizz could plan on doubling the amount of threat that tanks can generate in the Xpac. Yes, to a point this is somewhat of speculation as opposed to hard math - but the entirety of this thread goes hand in hand with some speculation.

If Blizzard removes the threat reduction skills (Salv, Tranquil) from the game and then buffs all tanks' threat by 30%, 5 man groups would be a different game altogether. I don't think this is the way they will change the fundaments of this game. Rather, I think the new focus on raid wide buffs as opposed to party buffs will increase tank threat because they are getting more dps buffs (i.e. shaman dps totems without having to have a enhancement shammy in the tank group). This will add into proposed tank talents that provide extra threat. I still seriously doubt that Blizzard will simply increase tank threat gen by some amount (akin to a rogue's passive threat reduction).

No matter what, tanks will never generate more aggro than they have to - if they are generating on the whole 30% more than their raid ever can get, then they will adjust their spec/gear for more survivability or maybe even non-threat modified dps.

Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
It's not immediately clear whether or not tanks will get a full 30% increase, but I bet they get pretty close to that... However, I suspect at the high end they won't tighten the aggro situation by more than 5 or 10%, since doing more would be annoying at best and crippling at worst.
This is more the idea of what I'm referring to - say that on the whole, tanks can generate 15-20% more threat compared to TBC, but now the raid doesn't have the 30% reduction of Salvation. Instead, we get Hand of Salv - which in a rotation is useful for perhaps the 3-5 people on the top of the threat list. People who weren't close to the main tank before are now closer to him, and have to pay attention - with a in-game threat meter that Blizzard has planned, this will allow threat management to be much more exact. With everyone closer to the tank, and the top 3-5 people being watched by the pallies, people with threat dropping talents become more useful - if your top dpser is a rogue, and you don't have to waste cooldowns and mana reducing their threat for them like you might have to for a shadow priest, you can use that threat reduction on the next person on the threat list.

Aside from this, I'm still curious as to the point of 2 new ranks of Feint. No one I know uses it, as it is ineffective, wastes dps, and Vanish does it all, really. Does Blizzard actually intend us to use it? Anyone know how much it is being buffed?

Last edited by Eulenspiegel : 07/22/08 at 8:49 PM. Reason: Because enhancement shamen don't throw lightning...

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Old 07/22/08, 8:54 PM   #719
Thx_138
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Eldre'Thalas
Is the +20% damage bonus to Eviscerate on Vile Poisons a misprint in the notes? I dont seem to see anyone talking about it...and it seems very out of place to have an eviscerate bonus on a poison talent. Not that im complaining if its legit.

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Old 07/22/08, 9:01 PM   #720
Eulenspiegel
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by Thx_138 View Post
Is the +20% damage bonus to Eviscerate on Vile Poisons a misprint in the notes? I dont seem to see anyone talking about it...and it seems very out of place to have an eviscerate bonus on a poison talent. Not that im complaining if its legit.
Which version of the notes are you looking at? Vile Poisons currently increases Envenom damage, and Wowhead's WoLK talent calculator confirms that this hasn't changed... maybe a typo on the notes that you read?

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