PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion - Page 49

• Aldriana · 07/22/08, 9:30 PM

Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel

If Blizzard removes the threat reduction skills (Salv, Tranquil) from the game and then buffs all tanks' threat by 30%, 5 man groups would be a different game altogether. I don't think this is the way they will change the fundaments of this game. Rather, I think the new focus on raid wide buffs as opposed to party buffs will increase tank threat because they are getting more dps buffs (i.e. shaman dps totems without having to have a enhancement shammy in the tank group). This will add into proposed tank talents that provide extra threat. I still seriously doubt that Blizzard will simply increase tank threat gen by some amount (akin to a rogue's passive threat reduction).

I suspect that part of the answer for this is simply that they'll have tank threat scale more with buffs than it currently does. Right now, the only stats that effect threat in a significant way are hit and expertise, which there are really no buffs for. Hence, tanks don't gain a whole heck of a lot of threat from raid buffs - AP will increase their threat slightly, but given that a lot of their threat comes from passive +threat on moves like Devastate and Shield Slam, they don't scale as well as DPSers do with raid buffs. Hence, one solution might be to have them scale significantly better with buffs, such that in 5 man situations (where salv is currently uncommon) things don't change excessively, while in raid situations, their threat scales significantly to overcome the loss off universal salv.

Mode · 07/22/08, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel

People who weren't close to the main tank before are now closer to him, and have to pay attention - with a in-game threat meter that Blizzard has planned, this will allow threat management to be much more exact. With everyone closer to the tank, and the top 3-5 people being watched by the pallies, people with threat dropping talents become more useful - if your top dpser is a rogue, and you don't have to waste cooldowns and mana reducing their threat for them like you might have to for a shadow priest, you can use that threat reduction on the next person on the threat list.

The comment about shadowpriests will not be true WOTLK. Along with balance druids and ele shaman, they're getting a -30% threat talent. What those three specs have in common is they lack a threat dump. Tank threat is definitely being increased somewhat, but The Vision(tm) probably includes all DPS classes with threat dumps being expected to use it at least once per fight.

choumarin · 07/23/08, 4:15 AM

Sorry if the question's already been asked: in my mut cycle, if I only get 4cp after my double mut, should I either rupture (with 4pts and 10% dmg increase) or mut again to ensure 5cp (but loose 10% dmg increase) ?

neekgan · 07/23/08, 4:39 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

As expected, they're making finishers a higher portion of our damage; what this means is that good cycle selection and management is more important - gone are the days where one can reach 93% of our damage potential with SnD alone.

Amen to that. Puts a smile on a mutilate rogue's face.

Oscarvil · 07/23/08, 5:54 AM

Originally Posted by choumarin

Sorry if the question's already been asked: in my mut cycle, if I only get 4cp after my double mut, should I either rupture (with 4pts and 10% dmg increase) or mut again to ensure 5cp (but loose 10% dmg increase) ?

Well it _is_ in the TTT article. But it's pretty easy to see why. Rupture rank 9 gets (217 + 0.0375 * AP) * 8 damage when you spend 5cp and (199 + 0.03428571 * AP) * 7 when you spend 4cp.

So notice that a) the base damage of 5cp is really close to 10% higher than 4cp and b) that you get an extra tick with 5cp over 4cp. These two things should give you a clue.

Substituting in for some realistic AP number (2800 raidbuffed because I'm me) shows that the total damage from a 4cp rupture is 2065 damage, while the damage from a 5cp rupture is 2576, so that's nearly 25% more damage using a 5CP rupture over a 4cp one, which is more than the bonus damage FW gives.

Xaoc · 07/23/08, 5:56 AM

Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel

Which version of the notes are you looking at? Vile Poisons currently increases Envenom damage, and Wowhead's WoLK talent calculator confirms that this hasn't changed... maybe a typo on the notes that you read?

Both World of Raids and MMO-Champion's BETA patch notes indicate the Evis change.

Vile Poisons (Assassination) reduced to 3 ranks, now increases damage of poisons and Eviscerate by 7/14/20% and increases dispel resistance by 10/20/30%.

Both Wowhead and MMO-Champion's BETA talent calculators still have the Envenom increases.

Easiest way to figure this out would be to have someone just take a SS of the talent screen in-game.

Vodrin · 07/23/08, 6:44 AM

Originally Posted by Xaoc

Both World of Raids and MMO-Champion's BETA patch notes indicate the Evis change.

Both Wowhead and MMO-Champion's BETA talent calculators still have the Envenom increases.

Easiest way to figure this out would be to have someone just take a SS of the talent screen in-game.

I saw this and just assumed it was a clerical error, makes no sense to have eviscerate on vile poisons.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator This also has it as envenom and was updated last night.

e: fixed evis->envenom is last line >.<

Ends · 07/23/08, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel

I have seen no math or indications at all to support any percentage that tank threat will be buffed at.

Straight from the Warrior beta patch notes:

Defensive Stance now increases threat by 45%

That makes up for the missing 30 % given that Defensive stance currently increases threat generation by 15%... for warriors at least. As it seems Feral instincts has been changed from an increase in threat Bear form to a 5/10/15% damage increase of swipe.

Suran · 07/23/08, 9:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ends

Straight from the Warrior beta patch notes:

Defensive Stance now increases threat by 45%

That makes up for the missing 30 % given that Defensive stance currently increases threat generation by 15%... for warriors at least.

It doesn't, because you can't skill defiance anymore (which were 15% bonus thread). So all you get are 3 more skillpoints but no extra threat.

Eulenspiegel · 07/23/08, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Vodrin

I saw this and just assumed it was a clerical error, makes no sense to have eviscerate on vile poisons.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator This also has it as eviscerate and was updated last night.

Now I'm really confused - I just now took the link that you posted and checked out vile poisons, makes no mention of eviscerate for me, with 0, 1, 2, or 3 points in it.

*Edit* In the Wowhead beta patch notes, the description says eviscerate, but mousing over the link for vile poisons still says envenom. I submit that this is a typo in the notes.

Vodrin · 07/23/08, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel

Now I'm really confused - I just now took the link that you posted and checked out vile poisons, makes no mention of eviscerate for me, with 0, 1, 2, or 3 points in it.

*Edit* In the Wowhead beta patch notes, the description says eviscerate, but mousing over the link for vile poisons still says envenom. I submit that this is a typo in the notes.

Yeah I made my own error :'(. I meant to say envenom, pretty terrible while mentioning their error indeed.

AeonNightmare · 07/23/08, 1:19 PM

Currently, there are only a few pieces of gear with expertise and because of that we have to pick which couple of pieces to go after without going over the cap. In WotLK, it seems that they have added alot of new types of gem stat combos along with the change of spell hit/ melee hit to the same thing. Now, I was just wondering, what will be the primmary stats to gem for? I mean, Haste seems like it will always be a dps increase, while hit and expertise will cap eventually, and such.

Luuca · 07/23/08, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Suran

It doesn't, because you can't skill defiance anymore (which were 15% bonus thread). So all you get are 3 more skillpoints but no extra threat.

Threat changes aside, it’s pretty much the same now and to come. Right now, Salvation is a useful tool to help us manage our threat; however, it still takes focus and attention to balance our Dps vs. threat. Dpsing too early, agro drops by boss abilities, etc all have forced us to learn where that edge is on a Tank- by-Tank and Boss-by-Boss basis. These changes just highlight our need to watch our threat.

With the changes to raid buffs, threat mitigation, increased damage from finishers, etc... it is clear that the gap between good and great rogue raiding Dps is getting wider. Tighter and tighter cycles, positional DpS specs becoming viable (if not leading) and this new emphasis on personal threat management, all make the days of sloppy sinister striking while PMing on Yahoo and eating a hot pocket an endangered species. (come on.. I’m not the only one.)

Extreme examples aside, I’m glad to see our “job” becoming more demanding in order to excel. What would be really awesome (Warning: Sarcasm Ahead) is if Blizz would give us some sort of raid synergy or raid-wide Boss de-buff to help ensure our raid slots.

• Aldriana · 07/23/08, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by AeonNightmare

Currently, there are only a few pieces of gear with expertise and because of that we have to pick which couple of pieces to go after without going over the cap. In WotLK, it seems that they have added alot of new types of gem stat combos along with the change of spell hit/ melee hit to the same thing. Now, I was just wondering, what will be the primmary stats to gem for? I mean, Haste seems like it will always be a dps increase, while hit and expertise will cap eventually, and such.

I think it's a bit early to say. The short answer is: should hit/expertise remain among the top stats, one will probably do what you do now: socket them until you're near the cap, and then use one of the other good stats (currently agi) to finish out.

The main way I could see this changing is if they make an ArPen gem, as I suspect that if such a thing existed one might be able to stack ArPen until it was the best stat. But we'll have to wait until we have all the information and can spreadsheet it out before saying for sure.

mako · 07/23/08, 1:45 PM

There is an ArPen gem in beta.