1) I still don't think posting speculative talent builds is very productive at this stage; things are extremely likely to change yet, as we haven't received our review yet.
2) Focused Attacks is significantly weaker than Combat Potency, particularly with a slow weapon (such as a sword) MH; CP runs up around 3 energy per second, while Focused Attacks in a sword build would be under 1. So I don't think that build works at all.
why not try something like this... you got SF, you get AR, 4/5 Expose weakness( since 1 pt in EW is worse then 1 pt in Aggresion), Deadly Brew with 4/5 Imp poisons...
I suspect this *could* work, doesn't mean it *should*.
Also, while we can kick, we are forced to pool energy and slow down with dps to do it. On the other hand, enhancement shamans can use their Earth Shock ability to interrupt as it's only taking a small portion of their mana pool, and it's on a shorter cooldown thus making it actually a better alternative as shaman actually does nothing except Stormstrike every ten seconds along with auto attacking and eventually totem twisting.
So no, can't agree we are already bringing something to raids. We're naked. I believe we should get more utility, but something in a form of a buff to melee classes which we'd benefit from aswell.
Enhancement shamans aren't the best interruptors to count on, since their interrupt requires spell hit to be completely reliable. In WoLK, this will be a moot point, but in BC, this is very relevant. Rogue/warrior interrupts are far more reliable because they can't be resisted like earth shock.
As far as utility goes, I like to think that the various random talents that we have contribute to a number of different "utilities" that we have, that most rogues don't use. How many rogues gouge whirlwinding raid trash? Not enough. I can't remember the amount of times our main tank had died and a rogue from our guild has evasion tank for just long enough for a kitty to go bear and tank the last 10% of a boss. In an effort to become more utility oriented, a rogue in our guild solo-interrupts Reliquary of Souls Phase 2 (Deadly Throw + PvP gloves = overpowered). Try tossing up a blade flurry+evasion in ZA on the dismounting trash to the Bear - I bet your healer wont take aggro and die.
I don't expect rogues to go out there and start to do all kinds of crazy stuff (like avoidance tanking. I've done it - it's not really viable past funsies). What we can do is use our versatility to our advantage. As much as anyone can, we can make the rest of the raid's jobs easier.
I searched the thread for "distract" and didn't find anything, so here's my question : Is there a way to influence distract resisted rate ? Is +hit of any influence (current theory in my guild) ?
Enhancement shamans aren't the best interruptors to count on, since their interrupt requires spell hit to be completely reliable. In WoLK, this will be a moot point, but in BC, this is very relevant. Rogue/warrior interrupts are far more reliable because they can't be resisted like earth shock.
As far as utility goes, I like to think that the various random talents that we have contribute to a number of different "utilities" that we have, that most rogues don't use. How many rogues gouge whirlwinding raid trash? Not enough. I can't remember the amount of times our main tank had died and a rogue from our guild has evasion tank for just long enough for a kitty to go bear and tank the last 10% of a boss. In an effort to become more utility oriented, a rogue in our guild solo-interrupts Reliquary of Souls Phase 2 (Deadly Throw + PvP gloves = overpowered). Try tossing up a blade flurry+evasion in ZA on the dismounting trash to the Bear - I bet your healer wont take aggro and die.
I don't expect rogues to go out there and start to do all kinds of crazy stuff (like avoidance tanking. I've done it - it's not really viable past funsies). What we can do is use our versatility to our advantage. As much as anyone can, we can make the rest of the raid's jobs easier.
Come Wotlk, there will be only one type of hit rating which will affect both magic and melee hit rate, so as you said, shamans will turn out to be better than us for interrupting. You mentioned DT with PvP gloves as an interrupt which is basicaly a huge loss of dps, aren't we brought to raids to do damage? I know we have abilities (pvp ones mainly, though) to gain control over trash/adds, but doesn't that differ from what we should do in first place? Also, if everyone is doing their job, mainly there won't be situations where rogue can help a lot to make job easier for the rest of the raid, and anyway why would we jump all around, use energy for CC abilities thus gimping our personal dmg contribution for such small gain?
What I would like to see in the next expansion is better usage of some abilities that are now useless in raids:
Sap : Until now I never had to use sap in a raid because of 3 reasons : wrong type of mob, immunity to sap, or stealth detection on the mob.
This meant no crowd control utility for a rogue throughout BC raiding instances.
Distract : Never used it in raids. Why would I in the first place? In heroics I use it to not get detected while trying to sap. But in raid there is no sap, and hence no need for distract as well.
I would like to see utility in the order of getting a partial pull.
I.e. suppose you have a pack of 5 mobs, and you distract 1, you pull 4 mobs, and leave the ‘distracted’ mob not involved in the fight.
This way a rogue could ‘split’ up difficult pulls.
Disarm Trap: I don’t think anyone used this ever in a raid, because there is nothing to disarm. I only tried (and note the word ‘tried’) to use it in Blood furnace, to dismantle the bomb thingies the mobs drop there. But most of the time I ended up getting too close and eating the damage anyway, or it just took too long to sacrifice DPS for it.
I hope there will be places that are hard to pass without disarming skills.
Lock picking: Never used it in raids. Only 5-man content showed utility for it (locked chests, the door in Shattered Halls to avoid the oozes, and the door in Scarlet Monastery)
Why not provide chests in raids that drop decent stuff? Why not provide something like shortcuts that are accessible through lock picking? (Just like the door in Shattered Halls)
I also would like to see less trash, but with higher HP.
Reason:
In raid rogues only tend to excel in boss fights, because that is the place a rogue can get a decent rupture cycle going.
In trash fights I tend to ‘Eviscerate’, because the mobs most of the time don’t stay alive long enough to get the whole duration of a rupture. (Most of the time you don’t even have the time to build up the points to get it going in the first place)
I know trash is not that important, but still other classes seem to be better at trash killing, even single target.
But I also know there has to be some difference in class roles, and I won’t lie awake from this one.
What I would like to see in the next expansion is better usage of some abilities that are now useless in raids:
SAP : Use it in sunwell all the time. Not mandatory but helps the mages a lot.
Distract: Use it to stop patrols and give us extra seconds before a boss pull. Hyjal is a great example. The sunwell scouts another.
Lockpicking, useless agree. Needs more utility. Like Shattered Halls has to get some shortcuts.
Disarm trap was useful / mandatory in BWL.
It's got the occassional use in BT, but you'd have to be a "very" fast rogue to disarm those traps the trash puts down. Generally it's impossible.
Ask your tanks to put 2 targets next to each other, use blade flurry often, use adrenalin on trash.
You'll see rogues can do quite a bit of DPS even on trash.
Last edited by Zurgat : 08/25/08 at 9:09 AM.
-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.
What I would like to see in the next expansion is better usage of some abilities that are now useless in raids:
Lock picking: Never used it in raids. Only 5-man content showed utility for it (locked chests, the door in Shattered Halls to avoid the oozes, and the door in Scarlet Monastery)
Why not provide chests in raids that drop decent stuff? Why not provide something like shortcuts that are accessible through lock picking? (Just like the door in Shattered Halls)
This would present some problems conceptually. At the moment, Lockpicking is basically an added secondary profession that only rogues can pick up, much like Poisons. You could technically level a rogue to 70 without picking a single lock or using a single poison. Granted, you'd be a dumbass for doing so, but I digress...
Implementing dungeon/raid content that requires a party member to have skilled up an optional tradeskill would be extremely difficult and require a fair amount of diligence.
Requiring a Rogue to Disarm/Lockpick, even if it's only to make things 'easier' runs directly counter to blizzards new philosophy of " You should be able to bring any group comp so long as you've got tank/healer/dps ratio's right" - they don't want any class to be mandatory for any fight. I'd wager the new Instructor Razuvious will be set up w/ a Mind Control orb to eliminate the need for priests, etc. etc.
I think Lockpicking is doomed to be our bane while idling in cities, much as portals and food/water are for mages at this point. Disarming traps meanwhile, is at this point, a legacy ability, that was put in at the start because it 'made sense' and only later did dev's realize that there's no good way to make it useful without unnecessarily punishing non-rogues.
Implementing dungeon/raid content that requires a party member to have skilled up an optional tradeskill would be extremely difficult and require a fair amount of diligence.
I find this argument rather specious. Raids drive profession development, if there were a significant reason to max lockpicking for raids then every raiding rogue would do it. Just like the vast majority of warlocks and mages leveled tailoring to use the early raiding DPS sets, just like the vast majority of first brut clears entailed many raid memebers picking up leatherworking to be a drummer, just like tanks horde ironshield pots. The reason lockpicking is an often neglected secondary profession is because it serves no real purpose. If it had a real purpose, if there were a recurrent and tangable reason to max it out, raiders would do so.
As far as utility goes, I like to think that the various random talents that we have contribute to a number of different "utilities" that we have, that most rogues don't use. How many rogues gouge whirlwinding raid trash? Not enough. I can't remember the amount of times our main tank had died and a rogue from our guild has evasion tank for just long enough for a kitty to go bear and tank the last 10% of a boss. In an effort to become more utility oriented, a rogue in our guild solo-interrupts Reliquary of Souls Phase 2 (Deadly Throw + PvP gloves = overpowered).
Your point on Gouging mobs is too true. It's sad how few rogues actually try it on things like WWing mobs or mobs channeling spells that are otherwise not kickable. That said, this isn't a reason enough to take a rogue. Why WW Blade Furys in BT when you can sheep them just fine on the pull?
Sapping in Sunwell was already pointed out, but even in early BT, sapping naga on pulls with Coilskar Generals (who break CC) is probably the best display of Sap's strength. As the only non-combat CC, it made those multi mob pulls trivial back in the progression days. I still remember the discovery of that fondly and loved pairing rogues up with mages for CC.
Emergency tanking? Hmm, I remember tanking Kalecgos for 30s until our last surviving tank got out of the demon realm and picked him up. I remember being fairly surprised that I lasted that long with the Sunwell Radiance debuff... but this is certainly not the reason I was selected for that raid (ignoring the fact that I'm an RL).
Solo interrupts on RoS? I guess it's no different than solo interrupting on Council but simply put: why? Any raid that is carrying a rogue is also carrying a dps warrior and the 2 of them can lock RoS down without either of them completely throwing their dps away. Again, not a reason to bring a rogue, we're just particularly adept at this role but warriors (tank included) can do this.
None of those examples answer the point articulated earlier in the thread: When has a raid in TBC ever been called because there were no rogues on? I can point to many nights I had to call our raids because we were missing every other class / spec, or only had 1 of them on when we relied on the presence of 2+. The rogue's gimmicky tricks pointed out above are not reason alone to make sure there are 1 or even 2.
I find this argument rather specious. Raids drive profession development, if there were a significant reason to max lockpicking for raids then every raiding rogue would do it. Just like the vast majority of warlocks and mages leveled tailoring to use the early raiding DPS sets, just like the vast majority of first brut clears entailed many raid memebers picking up leatherworking to be a drummer, just like tanks horde ironshield pots. The reason lockpicking is an often neglected secondary profession is because it serves no real purpose. If it had a real purpose, if there were a recurrent and tangable reason to max it out, raiders would do so.
Touche my good man, touche indeed.
It seems the other poster who touched on this idea going against Blizzard's new philosophy of not gimping raids based on class-necessity makes more sense as a counter-argument.
Requiring a Rogue to Disarm/Lockpick, even if it's only to make things 'easier' runs directly counter to blizzards new philosophy of " You should be able to bring any group comp so long as you've got tank/healer/dps ratio's right" - they don't want any class to be mandatory for any fight. I'd wager the new Instructor Razuvious will be set up w/ a Mind Control orb to eliminate the need for priests, etc. etc.
I think Lockpicking is doomed to be our bane while idling in cities, much as portals and food/water are for mages at this point. Disarming traps meanwhile, is at this point, a legacy ability, that was put in at the start because it 'made sense' and only later did dev's realize that there's no good way to make it useful without unnecessarily punishing non-rogues.
Why must it be perceived as a punishment? Is it a punishment running Heroic Sethekk Halls without a druid simply because you can't summon Anzu? Is it a punishment running Heroic Mana Tombs without a Revered/Exalted Consortium person with a key to unlock whatever-its-name-is? They're rewards, not penalties.
The Heroic Shattered Halls door is a nice reward in that it spares you some time, but you sacrifice a chest in that ooze tunnel (which is something most people are quite ok with). Why not have us unlock a special boss? Or what about giving us a passive ability to find a secret door / passageway that lets our party bypass a gauntlet or a lengthy trash clear (I know Blizzard is shortening instances, but what if?). Or what if you link the 2? Bypass a gauntlet in exchange for fighting 1 exceptionally difficult extra boss?
Who remembers when Heroic Durneholde pre-nerf? My guild called it Heroic Metal Gear: Solid because with a rogue, it became trivial. Stealth planting the bombs would basically reduce the slave area into 2x 4 mob pulls and then the boss... so much easier than the wandering dog packs that summoned 2 elites which aggro'd onto the first thing they saw.
Buffs
The only way to promote rogues (if needed) and give each guild a certain flexibility in general when the times comes to fill the spots of a raiding team is to nerf the group buffs.
Let's say limit them to 5 or 8.
Then you would have to select what suits you for the upcoming raid (or boss) and there will always be room for flexibility.
For example, currently you need to have at least 2 paladins (doesnt matter if they tank, heal, retri) in any kind of raid (10man included), why cant remove the "have to have" logic from buffs. That's 20% in the 10man raids.
Same logic can be used for debufs.
Roles
We have one of the most boring classes (with warlocks and mages) doomed to do one thing and we have been nurfed from it too.
For most of the classes when people are bored from their role they can switch (re-spec) to a different one even for one night's fun (without any proper gear). Although most of them are gearied pretty good using the "off spec need" excuse.
(Btw this is double loot isn't it?)
For rogues even when re-spec they still have the same role (dps, dps, dps). Our talent tree is a joke (Combat-PVE-dps, Sub-PVP-dpsmurder, Assasination-Are you kidding?) as we can only use 2 out of 3 for one role.
If it was up to me I would push Assasination talents to the other 2 builds and create a 3rd supporting built called Poison Mastery or something.
WOTLK Expectations
I am not an end game rogue (I have raided ZA 2-3 times) but even though I love the background and history of our class (shadow, sneeky killers) I think I will quit to go with a more versatile and needed class.
Most of you guys posting belong to a guild that knows and appreciates you and have a long playing history together, but do you know how difficult is to find a spot in raid with this class if you dont know the right people?
Buffs
For example, currently you need to have at least 2 paladins (doesnt matter if they tank, heal, retri) in any kind of raid (10man included), why cant remove the "have to have" logic from buffs. That's 20% in the 10man raids.
Same logic can be used for debufs.
They removed Blessing of Salvation and are buffing tank threat as a result, unless I read that incorrectly. Blizzard has their eye on this issue and I hope they find the proper solutions.
Originally Posted by dargel
Roles
We have one of the most boring classes (with warlocks and mages) doomed to do one thing and we have been nurfed from it too.
For most of the classes when people are bored from their role they can switch (re-spec) to a different one even for one night's fun (without any proper gear). Although most of them are gearied pretty good using the "off spec need" excuse.
(Btw this is double loot isn't it?)
For rogues even when re-spec they still have the same role (dps, dps, dps). Our talent tree is a joke (Combat-PVE-dps, Sub-PVP-dpsmurder, Assasination-Are you kidding?) as we can only use 2 out of 3 for one role.
If it was up to me I would push Assasination talents to the other 2 builds and create a 3rd supporting built called Poison Mastery or something.
I disagree that our class is boring. I can't imagine how our warlocks do it with literally hitting 1 button the entire fight. The difference between how a top performing rogue (note: not top raiding rogue) plays and how a mediocre rogue plays is pretty stark. I keep a mental inventory of multiple ICD's, have a UI that lights up like a Christmas Tree reporting as many as a dozen buffs / procs, and have to watch what's going on around me. That doesn't change in 5 mans, 10 mans or 25 mans. I'm concentrating hard in instances and I'm pretty mentally spent when I'm done.
A debuff / raid buffing spec sounds like an interesting option for rogues, though. I'm just not exatly sure how Blizzard could concoct this.
Originally Posted by dargel
WOTLK Expectations
I am not an end game rogue (I have raided ZA 2-3 times) but even though I love the background and history of our class (shadow, sneeky killers) I think I will quit to go with a more versatile and needed class.
Most of you guys posting belong to a guild that knows and appreciates you and have a long playing history together, but do you know how difficult is to find a spot in raid with this class if you dont know the right people?
Well, for what it's worth, I almost quit the game in my attempt to become a raider. I was guilded in small family type guilds and solo pugged my tier 0.5 set at enormous personal expense. I flasked entire 5 and 10 mans, provided full elixir stacks and multiple stacks of health / mana pots to every person in order to successfully get a green/blue crew through the 45 minute baron run and killing Lord Valthalak. I suffered countless group kicks before I even got there because I was a rogue and they found a mage. I apped and was rejected by every raiding guild there was on the basis of my krol blade, felstriker and t0.5. It wasn't until, as luck would have it, I ran a raider's alt through Mauradon and he invited me to a Saturday morning aq20 clear. There I was pitted up against t2, t2.5 and t3 players and demolished them on meters, resulting in an invite to their farm BWL team. The rest is history.
Come Wotlk, there will be only one type of hit rating which will affect both magic and melee hit rate, so as you said, shamans will turn out to be better than us for interrupting.
Apologies for a small tangent, but to clarify, the likelihood of enhancement shaman reaching the spell hit cap in WotLK is looking pretty darn slim if it stays at 16%. And even at spell hit cap, we still have 1% resist rate. It's my understanding that Kick acts as other physical specials and can have miss eliminated from the attack table.
It will most likely remain a smaller disturbance of our combat cycle than Kick is for rogues, but when push comes to shove, rogues are more reliable for interrupting successfully and will likely continue to be so.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
SAP : Use it in sunwell all the time. Not mandatory but helps the mages a lot.
Distract: Use it to stop patrols and give us extra seconds before a boss pull. Hyjal is a great example. The sunwell scouts another.
Lockpicking, useless agree. Needs more utility. Like Shattered Halls has to get some shortcuts.
Disarm trap was useful / mandatory in BWL.
It's got the occassional use in BT, but you'd have to be a "very" fast rogue to disarm those traps the trash puts down. Generally it's impossible.
Ask your tanks to put 2 targets next to each other, use blade flurry often, use adrenalin on trash.
You'll see rogues can do quite a bit of DPS even on trash.
Yeah I must agree with you on this. I use it to stop the bosses, so that the mana department has time to drink.
I never did pre TBC raiding (not level 60 when TBC came out) And I never reached sunwell, so that is also something I don't know.
But still, Kara, ZA, SSC, TK and BT are very poor on sap ability. If only sunwell has some usage, then i would like to see that continued.
For trash killing : I do use AR and BF on trash (actually I use it as soon as it comes off cooldown, and the fight is not ending yet)
In the 'makes things easier' part, you also take 3+ mages to MH, to sheep the necromancers, and to provide AoE.
While it isn't 'necessary' (you can also take locks for the AoE) , it is higly recommended because it makes the trash killing there a lot easier. Why not provide something like that for rogues in the form of lockpicks?
In the 'makes things easier' part, you also take 3+ mages to MH, to sheep the necromancers, and to provide AoE.
While it isn't 'necessary' (you can also take locks for the AoE) , it is higly recommended because it makes the trash killing there a lot easier. Why not provide something like that for rogues in the form of lockpicks?
We never do this. We usually have one or maybe two mages who are focusing on doing AOE damage. The 2 rogues and our dps warriors usually run up, get aggro on the necros, and drag 'em back into the AOE mess while interrupting their shadow bolts.
Theres lots of situations rogues can provide extra utility just by saying "Hey, I can handle this" when discussing how certain pulls are going to be handled.
While I certainly have no problems with Blizzard coming up with extra things for us to do to help out a raid, lockingpicking doesn't sound all that exciting. "Ok, now...go pick that lock" <button click> "Ok, lets go."
The thing that makes Kick so powerful really, is that it has the highest lockout:cooldown ratio of any interrupt in the game, at 5 seconds/10 seconds meaning 2 rogues interrupting provides a perfect rotation - the only other interrupt with the same ratio is Shield Bash, but generally, tanks have other demands for their rage bar and their attention. Any comments regarding missrate and resist chances, are secondary to that.
Apologies for a small tangent, but to clarify, the likelihood of enhancement shaman reaching the spell hit cap in WotLK is looking pretty darn slim if it stays at 16%. And even at spell hit cap, we still have 1% resist rate. It's my understanding that Kick acts as other physical specials and can have miss eliminated from the attack table.
It will most likely remain a smaller disturbance of our combat cycle than Kick is for rogues, but when push comes to shove, rogues are more reliable for interrupting successfully and will likely continue to be so.
It's true, kick misses can be pushed down from the table. The removal of the GCD adds into the strength of kick. Earthshock keeps its GCD but the new 71+ ranks will have a 8-9% base miss chance (like all other new Ranks of all spells in WotLK) like a good enhancer friend of mine told me. This is easily capped I think.
Originally Posted by gwystyl
I thought they were removing the 1% spell resist minimum?
Never heared anything like that though...
And to add to the discussion: I think(hope) that Blizzard makes its promises come true and make it possible to invite good friends rather than the needed classes to a raid. This would make the "what brings the rogue to the table?"-discussion obsolete, because the rogue should bring enough as he is your friend... you get the point... I hope :|
Maybe I'm just losing my mind in the flood of hearsay / wotlk change announcements. I was hoping someone definitively knew if I was just flat-out wrong about Blizzard's intention to remove the 1% minimum spell resist. Seeing as how nobody has come forward and said "yes, that's right," I think it's best to conclude that "no, that's wrong." My apologies!
Regarding bringing friends, that has always been the spirit of casual play. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making sure casual play endures and that the game remains a *social* game. But as long as there are raid instances set as tier upon tier of difficulty, there will be people competing for the accolades of first world / region / server / faction.
The people who play in that venue also need to have their needs addressed and it is certain that every progression minded raid team will take the optimal choice.
No disrespect (you are much more geared than me and obviously play your class well) but maybe you were brought along (the za runs) because they were short on talent and needed a space filled. Or perhaps you are friends with those going. I am by NO MEANS dogging you but to be part of a raid because we 'help out a bit' and we might be relegated to the 'phone answering' class.. alot of other classes clear trash mobs alot better. kinda sucks. ( i am just speculating on what others are saying about wotlk and our role) - so I want to move away from this thought process that we can be brought along cause we can kick or somesuch. I can't wait for the whispers after a raid "man, you kick real well. Glad we brought you along. Btw can you stop by the vendor and pick some things up for us..." :-)
I run with a ZA group that is typically pretty caster heavy, and my DPS generally shows it - but I still place on the meters, and frankly, a bear run is at least as much about the trash as the bosses, and short CDs like BF significantly close the gap. It's certainly true that my ZA spot was primarily earned by knowing how to play my class and a sort of expectation inertia where they think about my 25 man DPS, but if they replaced me with a caster, he would have to be the caster group pariah and his DPS would suffer too. My point being that even though my DPS is much less than it could be, group composition makes it so that other classes wouldn't actually be in a better postion.
I think everyone acknowledges that this expansion, mages were generally behind warlocks - and yet, even in guilds leading progression, mages were able to make it to progression fights. All this whining about whether or not we will be able to make it to raids is absolutely silly, because even in the situation that we are surpassed by other classes, we will still be earning raid spots.
A little off topic, but actually, the more I have thought about ZA, the more I really admire the great balance that went into it. I've done ZA with many different compositions, and been able to succeed. To my observation, player skill, knowledge of the instance, and gear play much more of a role in success than class composition.
Originally Posted by Vissa
We never do this. We usually have one or maybe two mages who are focusing on doing AOE damage. The 2 rogues and our dps warriors usually run up, get aggro on the necros, and drag 'em back into the AOE mess while interrupting their shadow bolts.
Theres lots of situations rogues can provide extra utility just by saying "Hey, I can handle this" when discussing how certain pulls are going to be handled.
While I certainly have no problems with Blizzard coming up with extra things for us to do to help out a raid, lockingpicking doesn't sound all that exciting. "Ok, now...go pick that lock" <button click> "Ok, lets go."
Yes, exactly. Handling necros and pulling them into AoE doesn't just make the pulls go faster, but it also allows melee to do something other than lament their inability to do AoE.
Rogues have a pretty significant toolkit, and there are more ways for us to contribute to a raid than just DPS. Certainly, I personally hope that our ability to provide buffs/utility is expanded in WotLK, but to say that we provide nothing other than DPS even now is overstating a little bit.
08/25/08, 3:21 AM
Similar Threads
