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Old 07/23/08, 1:45 PM   #736
AeonNightmare
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I think it's a bit early to say. The short answer is: should hit/expertise remain among the top stats, one will probably do what you do now: socket them until you're near the cap, and then use one of the other good stats (currently agi) to finish out.

The main way I could see this changing is if they make an ArPen gem, as I suspect that if such a thing existed one might be able to stack ArPen until it was the best stat. But we'll have to wait until we have all the information and can spreadsheet it out before saying for sure.
Here is a link to the gems, the first page are epic quality and the recipe page has some uncommon and rare quality gems.

Profession - Jewelcrafting

They do have an ArPen gem, as well as some good combos with it that seem to lean on more of a PvP side. One gem that really interests me though is the deadly Flawless Ametrine, which is 10 agi/ 10 crit, since mutilate builds lean on crit for better CP generation, wouldn't that make this more useful for assassination over an agi/hit gem?


Edit: Just noticed this one, seems like they wanted to make our job a bit easier.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...lcraft_122.jpg

Last edited by AeonNightmare : 07/23/08 at 2:03 PM.

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Old 07/23/08, 2:17 PM   #737
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
It's entirely possible that crit/agi type gems will rise to prominance; but again, it's just too early to say. Until we have a full list of items, all the numbers for the new abilities, base stats at level 80, and all the other pieces of the puzzle, we just can't make reasonable estimates on what stats are going to rise to the top of the heap. I imagine it will also be somewhat spec dependent, more so than it currently is.

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Old 07/23/08, 2:34 PM   #738
dinesh
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Dalaran
Originally Posted by Luuca View Post
Right now, Salvation is a useful tool to help us manage our threat; however, it still takes focus and attention to balance our Dps vs. threat. Dpsing too early, agro drops by boss abilities, etc all have forced us to learn where that edge is on a Tank- by-Tank and Boss-by-Boss basis. These changes just highlight our need to watch our threat.
This is my view as well. If anything, the nerf to Salv will improve the rogues' value to the raid, because we will be a high DPS class which doesn't need Salv in order to be effective and stay below the threat cap. For once, there will be a DPS buff that other classes need to leech more than we do.

Perhaps my view is colored by my own experiences (top 5 DPS in a T6 guild), but I know that for the vast majority of boss fights now, I wait about 2 seconds, then go all out for the remainder of the fight. More often than not I don't even need to vanish, but if the need arises, I do it lackadaisically whenever it is convenient for me after I hear the Omen warning.

This change might even make Feint a requirement for maximum raid DPS, even if it doesn't get buffed. Let the locks and shadow priests fight over the Salv rotation. We'll be forced to use vanish. And if that isn't enough, we'll use Feint (since the alternative are to stop attacking entirely, or pull aggro). Even if it "sucks", good rogues will still use it to maximize their personal DPS within the context of rDPS, and we'll feel like our class is more challenging to play well to boot.*

* Note that I'm not positive that using Feint isn't a worse use of energy than just stopping attacking and energy pooling, but if it is, then let's hope that they buff it at least to the point where it is not.

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Old 07/23/08, 2:40 PM   #739
mako
Don Flamenco
 
mako's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
<Bad>
Dragonmaw
Neither of the classes you mentioned will need salv with any urgency.

Shadow priest group mana regen is already slated to be ~50% of what it is in TBC, and docking an extra 10% off that is just silly. Plus, between the changed shadowform (-30% threat) and their original talent, i can't see them whining about salv. Destro warlocks may have more trouble managing threat due to spiky crits with ruin, but bliz seems to be moving the class towards affliction and demonology, so a single soul shatter per fight is likely enough.

Don't forget that any "nerf" to dps due to threat for caster classes will not be relevant to hunters, potentially bringing them up yet another notch.

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Old 07/23/08, 2:41 PM   #740
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
* Note that I'm not positive that using Feint isn't a worse use of energy than just stopping attacking and energy pooling, but if it is, then let's hope that they buff it at least to the point where it is not.
Feint, no matter how pathetic the aggro reduction, will always be better than just not doing damage, for the simple reason that it actually lowers your threat. "Doing less damage" is equivalent to just burning energy (or some other damage source) - you spend 20 energy to get absolutely no damage. Feint, on the other hand, spends that 20 energy to do absolutely no damage... and lower your threat, which increases the amount of time before you have to waste energy (or another damage source), thus increasing your DPS. Hence, if you are in an aggro-limited situation, it is always better to feint than to stop attacking or otherwise lower your DPS.

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Old 07/23/08, 3:11 PM   #741
dinesh
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Dalaran
Originally Posted by mako View Post
Neither of the classes you mentioned will need salv with any urgency. [...]
Don't forget that any "nerf" to dps due to threat for caster classes will not be relevant to hunters, potentially bringing them up yet another notch.
Well, I'm not in a position to argue, because I don't have a beta key (yet?), and I don't really follow other class skills in beta much either. On the other hand, while I appreciate that you're using the information we have now to the best of your ability, we're early enough in the process that I'll bet there is still substantial amounts of tuning to come, so I wouldn't want to form too many concrete conclusions.

As to hunters, I agree they would be in a similar boat as rogues, which is why I didn't include them. On the other hand, DPS Warriors also have the possibility of threat capping. So I guess I'm saying the limited availability of threat reduction buffs will have the effect of improving the relative desirability of classes that have mechanics to control their own threat as compared to those that don't, regardless of whether they are ranged or melee, caster or physical, DPS or healing.

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Old 07/23/08, 4:20 PM   #742
Cally
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Terokkar
Originally Posted by Luuca View Post
Extreme examples aside, I’m glad to see our “job” becoming more demanding in order to excel. What would be really awesome (Warning: Sarcasm Ahead) is if Blizz would give us some sort of raid synergy or raid-wide Boss de-buff to help ensure our raid slots.
Other than damage, and in gimmicky fights which involve interrupts and mana drains, rogues bring nothing else to the table. Due this fact, raids have not been called if a rogue or a few rogues misses the raid. The same cannot be said of a survival hunter, destro lock, arms warrior, shadow priest, or any other class that provides useful group/raid buffs. So I agree that there should be at least one rogue spec that high-end raids cannot do without.

Some of the existing rogue mechanics are already there to provide this but Blizzard just has to expand on it. In light of the threat changes, perhaps vanish can be modified to give all party members within 20 yards an aggro drop. Another idea would be to have expose armor stack with sunder armor but up to a certain cap. Or have mind numbing poison reduce attack speed in addition to it reducing casting speed and have it work on all bosses.

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Old 07/23/08, 7:58 PM   #743
impossible!
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Kel'Thuzad
Blue post from Korma in a thread asking whether or not the exclusion of new poison ranks was intentional.

Doing some changes to poisons, should see them in an upcoming build.
Needless to say, waiting with bated breath.

e: WoW Forums -> No new poison ranks: Intentional?

Last edited by impossible! : 07/23/08 at 8:06 PM.

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Old 07/24/08, 10:20 AM   #744
AeonNightmare
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Earthen Ring
My raid group is preparing to make attempts at Kael soon and since the encounter provides us with two legendary weapons, i have been considering a spec that would use both of them well, rather then just grabbing one that best fits your current spec. My plan with this build would be only for kael of course and i think it works out well, its a combat dagger/sword build. My only concern is how my dps would fare before getting the weapons.

Rogue - Talents - Thottbot: World of Warcraft


Edit2: Nvm, thought this was a WotLK only thread for some reason.

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Old 07/24/08, 10:42 AM   #745
Apps
Runnin them Nets
 
Apps's Avatar
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Uh, the 2.0 speed offhand wielded dagger isn't really worth putting points into dagger spec for. (In fact, it may be well worth switching back to your normal offhand during phase 5 so long as everyone doesn't do it.)

Edit: Actually, looking at the spec... Even if it were worth it, you did it wrong, and skipping relentless strikes for 5/5 lethality is borderline insane.

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Old 07/24/08, 10:44 AM   #746
AeonNightmare
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Earthen Ring
i was planning to wield that main hand, thought it was a 1 handed weapon. The point of this was to wield both the dagger HM, and the sword OH.

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Old 07/24/08, 10:49 AM   #747
Apps
Runnin them Nets
 
Apps's Avatar
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
This is so incredibly wrong that I don't really know where to start.

Spec cookie cutter. Wield the dagger OH and the Sword MH. Go reread the TTT article and try to understand WHY it's a bad idea - I'll give you a couple hints. You're wielding a.. what, 2.8 speed offhand? With no relentless?
(Editted, misread the spec)

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Old 07/24/08, 10:55 AM   #748
AeonNightmare
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Rogue
 
Earthen Ring
I am specced cookie cutter currently, i was wondering if for, kael only, speccing backstab with dagger MH and sword OH would work out to be better only because of the fact we get legendary weapons. I thought it may work but it has a couple issues, you already mentioned some of them. If you got what i meant, then I'll stick with the norm and thanks for the advice. If not, then help with the talent build would be great, i think the combat tree is the best it can be for this but how/where for assassination is a different story.

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Old 07/24/08, 10:59 AM   #749
Left
Don Flamenco
 
Left's Avatar
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Darkspear
Try a friendly neighborhood spreadsheet. But my advice: don't respec for Kael at all. You don't need to. The fight is about control, precision, coordination, and not being stupid, not about damage. For this fight, you will be perfectly fine with the sword mainhand and dagger offhand, no matter what spec you choose (Mutilate included).

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Old 07/24/08, 11:06 AM   #750
Arindelest
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Garona
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Try a friendly neighborhood spreadsheet. But my advice: don't respec for Kael at all. You don't need to. The fight is about control, precision, coordination, and not being stupid, not about damage. For this fight, you will be perfectly fine with the sword mainhand and dagger offhand, no matter what spec you choose (Mutilate included).
Yes, and you don't even have to use the dagger in your OH until Phase 4 anyways (assuming you've got a fury warrior doing it). And in addition to that, when you ARE using the dagger OH, you're probably running around shivving off the MC a lot of the time so it doesn't even matter how much damage you're doing. So in conclusion, stay with your current spec.

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