◊ gwystyl

Only it doesn't. Mobs that are sapped, and their resultant social comrades pulled, end up in combat. The moment Sap breaks, for whatever reason, it's game-on. They're just as vulnerable to damage as sheep are, but don't have the wander around element. Neither does banish, shackle, ice trap, hibernate, cyclone. Just alter the pve Sap debuff to make it so that if that pack is pulled, the mob enters into combat (as it already does) but is vulnerable to a re-Sap that doesn't require stealth. Is it really that game breaking?

 

drumbum

No, it's just poor wording by a blue poster. "In the coming weeks" should actually be interpreted as "in the coming months". The point of the post was just to say that they were going to repeat the process they did with BC -- release talents and much of the new content in a patch before the expansion itself releases.

 

Vi|Bs

I appreciate the idea of bringing new content to the game before the expansion starts (especially because it will be, unlike pre BC, more content than just the new talents) but blue posters usually do not get that "precise", especially when talking about possible release dates, mainly to prevent getting tacked to their earlier statements of course; and this is what makes me nervous.

Excuse my engRish by the way, not my mother tongue and it's pretty early in the morning 'round here.

 

• Aldriana

If you'll note, this whole discussion was spawned by a proposal that pulling the other mobs in the pack not put sapped mobs in combat, which is where the pack-splitting arguments come in, and hence the obvious problems with that proposal. I do think that allowing in-combat refreshes of sap without sapping might be a reasonable solution to the problem, more along the lines of what you're proposing.

In reality, it might well be only weeks - the proposed window for WotLK release starts in only about 5 weeks, so it's not inconceivable that this patch might be out in less than a month - though I think it's unlikely. More to the point, even if it is only 4 weeks, that's plenty of time for them to get fixes in. Do recall that Blizzard as a company has a pretty solid reputation for not shipping products before they're ready, so even if they do plan to do it in 4 weeks, if they can't get all the class fixes in by then I'm sure they'll push it out. So again, I think it's far too early to start panicking. It won't be until we have an actual release date and are within about 3 weeks of it that I'll start to get concerned, myself.

 

Tryss

If that 3.0 patch truly does come out in a few weeks, it's probably more to combat the Sept 18 release of Warhammer than to herald the imminent coming of WotLK.

 

Iliyan

I can't remember now, but how long did the "Pre-TBC" patch last? I remember it was quite a time span, nearly a month and a half of one shooting people as a Warrior or Enhancement shaman, I just had a flashback last night, watched "The Unbreakable" a Orc shaman destroying everyone with Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros.

Should rogue talents come live like they are, I see issues with how Ambush/BS PvP rogues will own everything in their paths that doesn't wear plate...

 

VeeV's

Blue Quote

And if I didn't say it clearly enough, rogues and any other class that feels they don't currently bring enough synergy to the raid will get be getting new or modified abilities to fill that role. The idea is to back down a little from: I have crazy buffs but that's really it, or I have mad dps, but that's pretty much it.

Probably this is the reason they are holding back on "The New Stuff". Im quite curious where the canges lead to without compromising class integrity.

 

Iliyan

Interesting enough, the statement puzzles me a bit... This is the part "The idea is to back down a little from: I have crazy buffs but that's really it, or I have mad dps, but that's pretty much it. ".

So, from what he is trying to say, it seems they are trying to give a balance of raid-dps buffs, and personal dps. So, the natural thing to assume would be that rogues are getting a raid-dps buff to compensate for some of the lower personal dps on the beta testing( maybe even the mage vs rogue one kalgan did).
Problem is, where will they put that raid-dps boost... Sub? I hope not.

 

VeeV's

Its a statement and we have zero idea or data what is behind it, with the exception that we havent been touched yet.

I seriously doubt that they will just can the exisitng stuff and completely rework the class. That would result in a lot of angry people, and the chances of pulling a fubar are just way too likely. Im in the state of expecting something awesome with some looming memories of the SW:Galaxies patch long ago.

 

Zurgat

Basically they'll give "everyone" buffs, so in the end all that's left to differentiate you from another class is your personal DPS and utility abilities.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

Ozzmar

This is probably pointless speculation, but there's a lot of room for creative utility that Blizzard could give us with poisons. As opposed to just having a DP stack running, it'd be neat to see more things like WP tailored for a raid. For instance, a poison that would reduce a mob's attack speed, hit chance, etc for some debuff utility. Or, a more synergetic approach could have a poison that increases bleed damage, or a poison that increases the effect of armor penetration skills like Sunder, Expose, etc.

 

• Bluefish

I find it likely that the utility will be either class-wide (Poisons, new skill, etc), present in multiple trees, or both. If you look at the other DPS classes with multiple DPS trees, this is how their LK talent trees are implemented. Hunters have Ferocious Inspiration in BM, Trueshot Aura in MM (it's the thought that counts?) and Expose Weakness / Hunting Party in Survival, and all Hunters have access to Scorpid Sting. Mages have Focus Magic, Imp Scorch, and Winter's Chill (the latter of which are being buffed to assist others, not just Mages). Warriors have Blood Frenzy and Rampage, and all Warriors have Battle Shout. The only place where you really see just one tree of a class able to provide a certain buff is in the hybrid classes, where it makes sense that your Moonkin and Tree don't provide LotP.

I also find it likely that our buff will somehow replicate one or more raid buffs or debuffs that aren't already duplicated by 3.0 changes. They've already put a lot of effort into making it so that no one has an irreplaceable buff or debuff in 3.0.

 

VeeV's

Exactly..

There is no way they gonna add another battleshout or ferocious inspiration, renamed and slapped between the rogue talents labeled as "utility". They just got rid of them or made them raidwide to avoid class stacking. If anything I would expect something along the lines of what is Imp Sbolt now but strictly limited to the rogue class. (all 2,5 of em in a 25 man)

 

tetracycloide

There is another interpretation of those comments that would result in neither raid utility nor superior single or dual target DPS for rogues. It is entirely possible that, with the advent of non-stacking buffs and raid composition of classes being phased out in favor of raid composition of individual players, rogues no longer need class defining DPS because other classes no longer have class defining raid buffs. If the goal is for no one class to have indespensable 'crazy buffs' then it makes sense that auxiliary to that goal is for no one class to have indespensable 'mad DPS.'

My vanity is justified.

 

◊ gwystyl

I'm probably misinterpreting the full meaning of your post, Tetracycloide. I don't know that it is possible to make no class indispensable.

If you dampen the effect of (de)buffs and boost individual performance, that still doesn't solve the fact that raid buffing classes will be greater than non-buffing classes. If anything, it exacerbates the issue. You still get "guaranteed" spots in a 25 man raid. Most of the buffing dps classes will have a minimum support level (2 warlocks, as an example). The remaining spots are best chosen to exploit those advantages. It's far easier to synergize caster dps, as an example, since all of their relevant (de)buffs will always be there. They require fewer of them, as a caste of dps, and those come from classes that will have a guaranteed spot. Rogues, in order to be competitive at present, require 9 specific class/specs, not all of which are a guarantee to have in your raid.

Currently, your reward for stacking like that and giving a rogue a perfect setup is: second best single target dps.

It just stands to reason that it will be easier and more effective to just overload with other classes that will fit into the already existing framework and do the same or a better job as a result of it. At that point, do you just opt to bring in someone to soak up rogue loot? Good thing Blizzard made our loot such that even more people will be vying for it.

Unless Blizzard intends to truly nerf (de)buffs aggressively, I don' t see how saying rogues are fine as nondescript dpsers is a logically defensible position. I don't particularly want to see raid buffs nerfed. I think the fact that, in a raid, we become much more than we are on our own is the whole point of the concerted effort. I think the answer is to find a way to make the unique one-trick-pony class work in pve the way it is supposed to (by Blizzard's own explicit statements in the past) without breaking the pvp dynamic. Things like making rogues the only class immune to glancing blows would be a great start.

 

Arindelest

That all depends on how far Blizzard plans to take this raid-buff thing. For example, if *every* buff was able to be done by, say, 3 classes, you'd end up with pretty much every buff and debuff in the raid with pretty much any composition. So now you wouldn't have two warlock spots, but you'd need to have a warlock or an X or a Z to do Curse of Elements or the equivalent, and a warlock or an A or a B to do Curse of Recklessness. Obviously there will be exceptions where you need one class, but the more classes you give each buff to (and 3 seems like quite a high number) the less you depend on any one class. The logical extension to that argument is every class having every debuff/buff (which will certainly not happen, but that's what it would head towards), which would basically mean the only real separator among DPS classes would be DPS, threat management, and other things like that.

And as for Tetracycloide, while your interpretation of the second sentence could be correct (although I doubt the CMs would really want to mince words that way), it doesn't really fit with the first sentence stating that rogues "will be getting more synergy."

 

Iliyan

Wouldn't that border with OP in a raid environment? How about this, make some of our stats reduce the impact of glancing blows... For instance Hit fits perfectly in the theme, lets say for each x Amount of Hit rating, reduce the impact of Glancing blows by y.

 

tetracycloide

The full meaning of my post is, reguardless of if making no class indispensable is possible or not, Blizzard's actions and statements could be construded as meaning that having no indispensable classes is the direction in which they want to take raids in WotLK.

The long standing rogue argument has always been that they provide no raid buffs or debuffs so their DPS must be high to compensate. The assumption inherient to that argument is that other classes are invited on the baises of their raid buffs. If all raid buffs are overlapping, and they aren't at the moment but bare with me, then there is no longer a reason to bring a specific class because you can get their raid buff from two or three other classes. The result will be that between two or three players of different classes/specs you bring the best player and not the best class.

So if rogues need high DPS to compensate for a lack of raid buffs because some classes get raid slots based on the buffs/debuffs alone and the mechanics for guaranteed raid slots based on buffs/debuffs is being removed. It stands to reason that rogues no longer need superior DPS to gurantee slots because other classes will no longer be guranteed slots.

Now in current beta this doesn't stand because all raid buffs are not created equal and there are still a great number of highly useful buffs/debuffs that are indispensable. However, moving toward removing a large portion of the raid composition backbone and replacing it with modular alternatives could easily result in the same thing happening for rogue DPS.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Blizzard has very clearly indicated they want the average raid to be sporting 2-3 members of each class. In a recruting environment where every class has virtually identical total utility to a raid reguardless of the remaining composition in the raid the ideal choice is to choose the class you have the least of. Removing the advantage of class stacking for every other class works as a way to encourage rogue slots based simply on bell curve statistics and loot distributions. It wouldn't matter that their utility doesn't stand head and shoulders above everyone else because no other class' utility does either.

You are absolutely right. However, simply implementing the existing talents could be all the first sentence was aluding to because at this point in beta 3 fully operational trees would be 'new' and 'more synergy' for rogues.

My vanity is justified.

 

◊ gwystyl

I catch your meaning now. That certainly is another way to go and I'd be completely cool with that methodology as well. I remain skeptical of Blizzard's ability to pull that off, but that is entirely my problem.
:-P

 

◊ gwystyl

I hardly think that would be overpowered. Napkin math would place the net effect of that at something on the order of ~4-4.5%. Glancing blows only affect our white damage and are, last I checked, a 25% chance for our white hits to be reduced by 25% of their total damage. Effecting that change right now would still not get top rogues close to the top legendary wielding hunters, as an aside.

 

Cally

This was what I was alluding to in my previous posts, giving a hypothetical example of how a hemo rogue can duplicate an arm warrior's debuffs and thus eliminating the need to specifically recruit an arms warrior to min/max for raids. Also, having different rogue specs doing different things that would be raid viable would also play nicely with the bringing the best player and not class idea. Now, it would no longer be a case of "yet another combat rogue" or "you are deep assassination so you don't have a spot in the raid". Both an assassination or combat rogue would have a spot in the raid, and, if Blizzard were generous, maybe a subtlety rogue would have a spot in the raid as well.

 

Ozzmar

This is fair to say, and I for one sure hope it ends up being true, but only time will tell. With the talent Honor Amongst Theives (which is great, just in a horrible place), it would be nice to see deep Sub gain a piece of utility that, as previously mentioned, would compensate for their lower DPS output but not be a lynchpin for the raid.

 

Fold

Tetracycloide, your comments are well spoken and make a lot of sense to me. This entire discussion is obviously very speculative, but to echo Gwystyl's comments I'm not sure if Blizzard's supposed goal of homogenizing class buffs/utility/raid role is even achieveable (at least not in the timeframe that's been stated for expansion release.)

What I'm interested in is ... do rogues really *want* more utility in raids? I'm not in a hurry to have to manage buffs, do something else in combat that's going to take me off my target for any length of time, or babysit another class who's going to do more damage than me as a result. Silly lore reasoning aside, I think from a design standpoint having one or two classes that focus completely on damage and save the utility/tricks for PVP or other aspects of the game is a good thing. It appeals to more playstyles than a generic scenario where every class has X ability to do damage, Y ability to buff other players, and Z ability to defend itself. I knew when I rolled a rogue that I'd have limited abilities to help other people and limited defenses, with the tradeoff being "mad dps." I was comfortable with that role on day 1, and I still am.

 

Left

In my opinion, the easiest way to do this would be to create a new ability for it. Something along the lines of...

Contusion
50 Energy, 5 yd. range
Instant, 30 second CD
Delivers a blow to the head of a sapped target, refreshing the duration of sap. May only be used on a sapped target.

This avoids issues with mob agro and pack splitting, as the mob is put into combat as per normal. It avoids issues with chain-sapping out of combat in PvP, as PvP sap lasts only 12 seconds and this ability would have a cooldown exceeding that. (Ok, so it would allow a single Sap->Resap combo, but not more than one.) It allows chain sapping in PvE by virtue of being able to refresh the duration of sap, but it comes with a significant energy cost. In addition, if you screw up and let the sap break, then you are out of luck.

Basically, that would give us a PvE crowd control more or less on par with sheeping, trapping, etc, but with our own unique mechanic for how to make it work. (Mages have to resheep, Warlocks have to banish right away when banish comes off, hunters have to feign and retrap, rogues have to be careful to not let sap drop...)

In terms of implementation, that should be simple. There are already multiple LK talents which have one ability refresh the duration of another; this is a simple application of that same concept but with a dedicated ability.

 

Nefiir

I'm not sure that your conclusion necessarily follows. Individual ability + group utility, even if the utility is in some ways generic, is still better than individual ability alone, even if only due to the value of redundancy. That the utility is shared by multiple classes doesn't diminish the value of said utility to zero. Utility remains extremely desirable and there will still be guaranteed slots for those who provide it.

That said, the direction towards making off-spec or hybrid utility shared (i.e., possessed by multiple off-specs or hybrid classes) and non-stacking does benefit core role classes (e.g., ~pure dps, etc.), but that isn't to say that lack of utility needs no compensation.

Ideally, you want roles to be semi-interchangeable. If a rogue's role is dps only, they ought to only be interchangeable with other classes that only dps. Similarly, if a hybrid or offspec class' role is that of dps + group utility, they ought to be interchangeable only with other hybrid or offspec class's of the same role. It isn't good when hybrids or offspecs that possess non-trivial utility are able to replace pure role classes that lack such utility without discernable loss (i.e., something lost for the non-trivial utility gained). It is even worse when hybrids or offspecs with utility become preferable to pure role classes.