Assuming that dodge % of a boss remains approximately the same for a level 80 as it does for us now, then your cap is whatever gets you to -6.5% chance to dodge. Cap ultimately depends on if you are human, if so what weapons you use, and if you are specced into the Weapon Expertise talent at all.
So, for a non-human rogue without 2/2 Weapon Expertise talent this translates to: 214 expertise rating(rounding up)
[note a human rogue w/o 2/2 WE using fists or daggers also shares this cap]
For a non-human rogue specced into 2/2 Weapon Expertise this translates to: 132 expertise rating (rounding up)
[Human rogues specced 2/2 WE but who use fists/daggers share this cap]
For a human rogue without 2/2 Weapon Expertise using swords or maces: 173 expertise rating (rounding up)
For a human rogue with 2/2 Weapon Expertise using swords or maces: 92 expertise rating (rounding up)
With this change, I suspect they will take mutilate out of Oportunity as Sinister strike, Shiv and hemo arent there.
Not necessarily. They could make Mutilate free from positionnal requirement out of utility, to lessen the penalty on moving fights, but still keep the bonus damage to Mutilate attacks from behind, to keep the feel of "backstabbing".
Originally Posted by Aldriana
I'm not entirely sure why people are so hung up on Combat Daggers, honestly. I mean, it's nice to have good dagger specs, but will all the opportunities these changes will allow, getting hung up on Combat Daggers specifically seems... silly.
Well, you know, some people DO like RP options, even in optimized mindset. Rogues are symbolized by daggers, so many people like to "feel" a rogue by using daggers.
And there is also the innate attraction of big numbers on the screen and feeling you just pushed a blade into the back of someone ^^
And am I the only one VERY uptset to see the poison skill going the way of the dodo ?
Honestly, no one was carrying tons of reagents in his bags, so it will save nothing, and frankly it didn't took any time. It's just a pure, raw RP loss, without a clear gain except a handfull of second every week.
I'm sad, sad, sad on this one... I want to brew my poison myself, damnit, not having them sold as mere commercial merchandise :-/
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/
So, for a non-human rogue without 2/2 Weapon Expertise talent this translates to: 214 expertise rating(rounding up)
[note a human rogue w/o 2/2 WE using fists or daggers also shares this cap]
For a non-human rogue specced into 2/2 Weapon Expertise this translates to: 132 expertise rating (rounding up)
[Human rogues specced 2/2 WE but who use fists/daggers share this cap]
For a human rogue without 2/2 Weapon Expertise using swords or maces: 173 expertise rating (rounding up)
For a human rogue with 2/2 Weapon Expertise using swords or maces: 92 expertise rating (rounding up)
It seems that expertise (assuming it continues to be our best stats point for point) will be something we will aim to always keep around the cap. Hopefully hit rating cap will be so high that we won't reach it, because it would add a lot of gem cost for us to have to balance two different cap stats whenever we get a new piece of gear.
While dps using TotT on each other would be fun, this ability would have an incredible effect on threat sensitive fights. 3 rogues rotating this skill would be 60% uptime of a 15% damage buff on the tank plus an entire rogue's worth of threat - this could be as much as 75% more tank TPS in a fight.
I personally think this is too good and the 30s cooldown will not make it live.
I think it could quite possibly add a whole "threat / damage meta game" to the rogue if the 30s cooldown remains. Sure, your first cooldown or two will always go to the tank, but once he's got his head start you could begin to start throwing your Tricks at whoever can manage the threat just for the damage boost.
However, I share your concern about the cooldown. Against a backdrop of raid buff rebalancing, here is an ability which appears to stack. The more rogues I bring to a raid, up to 5 (30/6), the more threat the tank puts out. It doesn't stop there, as even more rogues can just hand out +15% damage buffs. I know the rogue community is worried about getting spots in raids. The other DPS communities are worried that rogues will take over the majority of dps spots after all the buff slots are filled. So it seems reasonable to expect some kind of mechanic to be added to this that limits the 'stackability'.
Well for the aggro metagame it doesnt have to be that harsh. 6 seconds is 120 energy given that everything points to assassination and vitality being fairly standard if you use TotT at 0-10 energy you can pool energy up to 100 use mutilate once and the threat given to the target will not be as insurmountable. Given a "rotation" that you use when the target is the MT and another to use when it is placed on a fellow dps I doubt that it will be hard to manage the aggro.
It also adds another 15% damage in arena play is rather useful, especially if frostmage are still excellent partners in 2v2, helping the burst on shattercombos. An excellent ability. Lets see how it fares.
I'm really curious about the poison changes. They've removed the trade skill element, which is simply enough to grasp. I highly doubt, however, that the vendor will now sell every rank of poison. Is it a hint that we'll see single rank poisons that scale based on AP/level?
Also, the whole "make Subtlety less about daggers" thing is equally enticing. Christ, can't wait for this build!
It seems that expertise (assuming it continues to be our best stats point for point) will be something we will aim to always keep around the cap. Hopefully hit rating cap will be so high that we won't reach it, because it would add a lot of gem cost for us to have to balance two different cap stats whenever we get a new piece of gear.
Again, pointing to the Combat ratings post, and assuming no major change to the probability distribution of the hit table, the Hit rating cap will be slightly more than double what it is now, as this is roughly the case for most of the ratings effects from what I can see at a glance. Again, until more of the loot is seen, and given that Blizzard has stated that a number of changes are to be forthcoming to the talent trees, it's hard to say at this point in time just how we will be going about gemming in WotLK.
I'm really curious about the poison changes. They've removed the trade skill element, which is simply enough to grasp. I highly doubt, however, that the vendor will now sell every rank of poison. Is it a hint that we'll see single rank poisons that scale based on AP/level?
Also, the whole "make Subtlety less about daggers" thing is equally enticing. Christ, can't wait for this build!
The other possibility is that each poison becomes a separate spellbook spell, requiring a reagent GENERIC POISON from a vendor.
Is it possible that Honor Among Thieves will make deep Subtlety viable for raiding? With say a fury warrior another rogue and pretty much any two others in your group it's hard to imagine you won't be getting the max free combo points allowed, i.e. 1/sec. Since Relentless Strikes makes 5 point Eviscerates cost 10 energy and ruptures are free, that's 1 Evis and 1 Hemo every 4.5 seconds (1 combo point from your hemo, 4 from the group), with Ruptures and S&D whenever they expire.
That's a lot of free Eviscerates (makes Imp Evis and the Evis glyph more appealing) to compensate for loss of white dps.
It's quite conceivable you simply won't have the energy to use all the combo points you generate. Hopefully you've got resto druids healing you.
Neckface:
Honour Among Thieves only yields CP for critical yellows and Druid's replenish should be going to change to granting mana only, like all other classes' Replenish's do.
Neckface:
Honour Among Thieves only yields CP for critical yellows and Druid's replenish should be going to change to granting mana only, like all other classes' Replenish's do.
Ahh...."damage spell or ability". Right.
"Anything that seems too good to be true probably is."
Murder Spree is working yes, but there are issues.
Along with what has been pointed out in the prior page, the damage it gives seems to be not enough to qualify for a 51 point talent. I tested it amongst 3 mobs fairly spread out( they were all in combat with me at the time because they currently have to be )you do port to all 3 and make your attacks but it's really insignificant. I had numbers in the 100s on a level 70 mob when I am 77. If you get any sort of slow effect during the duration the ability breaks( think frost mages)
I wonder what happens to aggro from DoTs (DP & bleedings) applied before firing our new misdir ability. But I believe we'll have to wait. Skill is OP anyway and I'm all happy to see it even if they nerf it to 3min cooldown in next patch
it works a bit better against multiple mobs, yet you can see the issue with its damage and it is supposed to be 10 attacks.
There are some bugs with it to be certain. This is again with 68-69 mobs and me using a 1.4 speed brut dagger/2.6 speed fist. You can riposte/ss whatever during murderspree.
On solo mobs it seems to only do 5 attacks whether its the oh or the mh
Well, you know, some people DO like RP options, even in optimized mindset. Rogues are symbolized by daggers, so many people like to "feel" a rogue by using daggers.
And there is also the innate attraction of big numbers on the screen and feeling you just pushed a blade into the back of someone ^^
Sure - but that's exactly my point. People want to use daggers? Great. People want to see big numbers? Fine. As I say: I have no problem with people wanting backstab-based builds. My point is that there could - and very possibly will be - viable backstab builds that aren't Combat Daggers. If 0/20/51 turns out to be a killer backstab build, is anyone really going to miss Combat Daggers?
Now, that said: it's certainly not there yet. A backstab rogue would ideally like 15 points in Assassination (to get Puncturing Wounds and Lethality), and 18 points in combat (for DW Spec, Precision, Imp SnD, and Close Quarters Combat), and Subtlety down to Slaughter From the Shadows, which is a total of 80 talent points and thus not possible. We'll have to wait and see what they come up with in terms of balancing Backstab builds, but I remain confident that they'll come up with something. It just may not be Combat Daggers, but some other Backstab build.
To take that thought further, if 51/20 were the de facto rogue build in TBC, rogues would:
- cloak off specials once per minute
- devour their own magical (and bleed) debuffs on demand at no cost (in fact, as a buff)
- receive +20% on incoming heals
In theory, if Lich King raids turned into splash damage bonanza's, they could even spec to reduce all incoming damage by 5% (though I think hell will freeze over before anyone specs deadened nerves Even without, that's a pretty low maintenance DPS.
And one that never runs out of mana. Too early to know how well mana classes are going to fare with the rebalanced shadow priest and 1 mana pot per fight. All those BM hunters chugging fel mana pots on cooldown could be in for a shock.
51/20/0 is a speculation assuming dw spec doesnt move and opportunity doesnt change. After reading the list of incoming changes, Im sure both of those are false assumptions. This doesn't really affect the focus of your argument however.
The current party or raid member becomes the target of your Tricks of the Trade. The threat caused by your next attack and all actions taken for 6 sec afterwards will be transferred to the target. In addition, all damage caused by the target is increased by 15% during this time.
Instant, 30 sec cooldown
All actions...
So, think we can start throwing Vanishes around to other players?
e: Also, with 3 minute sprint (according to the blue post) plus 2points in Endurance plus that Sprint glyph - that's sprint on a 30 second CD. I know this will change but really, how awesome would this be.
With the new Beta build and the announced Rogue changes, a 15/13/43 Spec seems to be very competive. According to the blue post, the lower subtlety talents will get a revised version. So the spec could even get stronger. We will see.
With the new Beta build and the announced Rogue changes, a 15/13/43 Spec seems to be very competive. According to the blue post, the lower subtlety talents will get a revised version. So the spec could even get stronger. We will see.
Lightning Reflexes = Dual Wield Specialization.
I would think you could trade one point of precision for shadow step.
With the new Beta build and the announced Rogue changes, a 15/13/43 Spec seems to be very competive. According to the blue post, the lower subtlety talents will get a revised version. So the spec could even get stronger. We will see.
Lightning Reflexes = Dual Wield Specialization.
Having played around with different specs in the Beta, combat still seems to be the strongest.
Especially with raid gear as you achieve high crit rating + Malice + Unfair Advantage, and adding the Crit strike damage bonus from Prey on the Weak + Lethality, your damage numbers are going to be pretty high. I am interested to see what changes they are making to Unfair Advantage and Stay of Execution, the blue post said the new talent use for them will be more offensive/utility based.
IMO, Combat will still be the strongest for PvE DPS, especially when you attain a high crit rating.
Deep Combat's strength will depend on the new Lightning Reflexes and the "new" talents (Stay of Execution, Unfair Advantage, Throwing Weapon Spec). But I think it is quite clear at this point that Blizzard wants deep builds of all three trees to be at least playable in PvE, given the incoming buffs to Deep Combat, the buff to CttC, and the reorganization of Subtlety. How successful they are depends basically on how well they can tune the trees to stay close to each other in DPS at different itemization levels (such that different gear or weapons might give you a different preferable spec), and whether they choose to include talented utility (such as Blood Frenzy as has been speculated.)
(Tip: Don't make conjecture without backing it up with something).
08/30/08, 4:56 AM
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