vittas

i will have to disagree. lets see what combat swords will gain: pray on the weak (huge dps boost), blood poisoning (good group buff) and killing spree (i hope it will be a huge boost since, its 51 point talent) also some fillers, but ok lets forget about those at the moment.
Now lets see what the combat swords build will lose: lethality (30% crit dmg on Sinister strikes, but we already got +25% crit dmg to all attacks from pray on the weak so we do lose only 5% crit dmg from sinister strikes) so not that big deal, ruthlessness, this a pve talent i agree but i assume that killing spree will be more dps than this by a huge margin, and of course we lose 3/5 vile poisons which is a minor dps upgrade anyway.
so to sum up, when 3.0 launches combat swords will do more damage than before and will have a raid wide buff, that will make arms warriors obsolete. i think we are ok, until wotlk launches

EDIT: typos

 

• Rerox

I was pondering on a similar point too: when doing a dagger/fist-combat-build your first "bump in the road" is in tier 5, where you are currently simply out of interesting choices and short of 2-4 points. Provided you take 5/5 DW, 5/5 Precision, 3/3 Imp. SnD, 5/5 CQC and maybe 2/2 Imp SS. But as you say, it already starts in Tier 4 where the choices currently are Imp. Sprint and ... well nothing really. So you take Imp. Sprint and then HAVE to spend 2-4 more points on completely uninteresting talents like Deflection/Riposte or Lightning Reflexes to reach Tier 6. Just to get stuck at Tier 7 again, short of 4 points to reach Tier 8 and with only sub-par choices like Blade Twisting, Vitality and Nerves of Steel.

The same Picture shows up when creating a sword/maces-combat-build. Filling Tier 1 and 2 with 15 points is easy, but getting 5 more points in Tier 3 and 4 is the first bump in the road there in my opinion, because the talents are not that convincing right now, besides Imp. Sprint. We will have to wait and see what Lightning Reflexes brings along. But again you get stuck at Tier 7 with 3 points short of Tier 8 and not much interesting stuff.

Unfortunately, once you reach Tier 8 there just aren't enough points to try out all the new cool talents like Unfair Advantage, Blood Poisoning and - yes - Throwing Spec. You HAVE to skip at least one to stay at 51 Points Combat.

In my opinion at least one of the three 2-Point-Fillers in Tier 8 and 9 should at least drop down to Tier 7 or maybe as far down as Tier 4, to provide more cool fillers on the way up to the top.

/edit: for clarification

 

Felyae

At least this part seems to be intentional. Most (all?) LK specs seem to have more nice high tier talents than you have points for if you want to spent only 51 points.

 

sp00n

We also lose Murder, which is balanced by Blood Poisoning. So you cannot count that as a buff, at least not on a personal level (of course it is a rather large buff raid wide, or a buff if you are fighting mobs formerly not included in Murder).
Btw, is Murder increasing poison damage right now? Because Blood Poisoning only increases physical damage (and if Murder does, it's even a very slight nerf on a personal level).

Also I've just taken a peek and disabled ruthlessness in the DPS spreadsheet to see how it affect cycles. The sheet now shows me a 5s/5r cycle with a slack value of only 0.64, down from 4.22. This would be very tight, and you could expect some downtime in SnD.
However this is also balanced out by the SnD glyph, which increases SnD uptime by 3 seconds, making it a viable cycle again (and probably the only one worthwile). I just hope it will be available without too much effort, as it will basically be required with level 70 and patch 3.x.

I came up with a 5/51/5 build for the time being, with the current talents implementations.

 

Urotsukidoji

combat spec on lvl 80:
would it be better to put 2 points in ruthlessness, like this?
7/51/13
or instead
2 points in blood poisoning, like that?
5/53/13

what do you think?

 

sp00n

Why don't you just drop Unfair Advantage for it? Or reduce it to 1 point?
And as a Night Elf, maybe you would want to get both points of Weapon Expertise.

Depending on whether Lightning Reflexes will be worth it at all: example build #1, example build #2

 

Zaniel

You're forgetting that Blood Poisoning is directly replacing Blood Frenzy, since there will be no more Arms warriors around. Calling it a fair trade for Murder is a bit misguided. I suppose my big problem is all the requisite filler to get to the bottom of Combat (as I previously said), and the fact that now I feel pigeonholed into taking points in Sub, which really hurts since the bottom of Assassination is so full of great talents.

So what we end up losing from our current spec when 3.0 comes out is: 5% crit damage (situationally 30%), 2% damage against humanoids, beasts, etc, Ruthlessness, and 16% poison damage (and dispel resist).
I'm still not sold on Killing Spree -- we'll just have to wait until it's fully implemented.

 

• Rerox

Well it really seems that it's intentional, but as the talents currently stand it's nothing I like very much. With the current planned talent-tree layout, you are left with not-so-good-choices in the lower tiers wich simply isn't fun (Blizzards main development goal for most talent changes is "having fun") and when you finally reach tier 7+ you can't take all the nice stuff that has been dangling before your nose. That's no fun either!

One other thing I noticed, while playing around with some dual / tri-spec Hemo builds is that speccing up 20 points to Hemo is still a real pain. If you spec Hemo you most likely don't use Daggers. So in order to spec for Hemo you still have to take nearly every single crappy non-dagger-filler talent in the first three tiers just to reach Hemo. Most of the stuff doesn't help with PvE-DPS and only half of it is really fun.

I think putting Relentless Strikes in Tier 1 and pulling down serrated blades one tier helps a bit, but currently there are just too many 2 or 3 points filler talents in the lower sub-tree tiers. Maybe one or two good 3 or 5 points PvE-talents in tier 2 or 3 would help?

 

Urotsukidoji

yeah, you´re right.
2 points in weapon expertise is a must. maybe i rushed to fast thru the trees. ;-)
but i like the way of unfair atvantage, espacialy when grinding alone.

 

Asuah

We lose 5% crit damage on Sinister Strike but gain 25% crit damage on whites which is far more than a fair trade. The loss of Ruthlessness may be a little painful but may be offset by the new SnD and Rupture glyphs. The loss of Murder probably isn't that big of a loss for end-game TBC raiding content (save Kalecgos) and may potentially be overtaken by a new Lightning Reflexes.

Even if you don't use Murder Spree (which is probably worth a little more than a second of DPS time - if you hit 5 times for 500 damage at a lowball amount, and it might proc Combat Potency), I see us coming out ahead when the patch hits. Not to mention that there will be raid DPS increases when those Arms warriors respec Fury and we take care of the Blood Frenzy buff almost passively.

 

Duskmourn

The biggest issue I see regardless of whether or not we lose the poisons talent, and murder at 80 is the fact that in the current proposed tree there are too many pvp filler talents. When Blizzards objective was to make the trees either pve or pvp capable. As others have stated, in one form or another, most trees do have the 2 and 3 point talents that serve to benefit in pvp and have thier uses in pve.

The problem is the combat tree where there are 5-7 talents that are pvp/pve filler required for some specs to get to their 51 pointer. Lightning Reflexes would fill that gap some if it added either a haste component or some other dps boosting ability in possibly the 5 point range. You could still get something noteworthy like Imp. Sprint, yet when you got lower into the tree where vitality and nerves of steel and Unfair Advantage are, you could spend those points in Lightning Reflexes and get to your 51 pointer without all the extra unwanted pvp stuff.

Unfair advantage needs a passive part to it. Something that works with the name. i.e. Armor penetration passively or the crit and dodge it used to give.

 

Felyae

@Rerox
Well, frankly I'm not sure how to make a rogue PvE spec "fun", if you don't want all rogues running around with exactly the same spec. For tanking speccs this might be possible by shortening the mitigation talents that are mandatory. Free points can be spent for single tps, AOE tps, utility, dps, whatever.
For PvE rogues all dps talents are mandatory - or the best, given more options than available points. Question is: What kind of talents wouldn't be, but would also be interesting to take, making them desirable als "fillers"?
Throwing spec might be one, maybe Nerves of Steel (depending on future encounter design), but both can't be put too far up: In my opinion they are vital to make combat PvP viable.

I perfectly understand the problem a combat rogue has right now, being forced to either increase his dodge or gouge on the first tier - and yes, the problem might persist even with tier 1 DW spec, in that case on higher tiers. But in my opinion this is another issue than slightly "overfilled" tier 9+ talents.

 

Hildegard

Having 6 to 8 points to choose between Endurance, Improved Kick, Throwing Specialisation, Improved Sprint, Unfair Advantage, Improved Gouge, Vitality, Nerves of Steel, Deflection and Riposte seems like a very fair thing to do. Even Elusiveness can be added to that list.

By the way: Remorseless Attacks is a very fun talent. I once klicked them before going to Hyial where murder has close to zero effect and had quite a lot of fun with it. It also speeds up solo play quite a bit and is fun in battlegrounds or heroics. In this sense it is quite a good filler talent especially early in an expansion when solo play and smaller instances are still interesting.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Asuah

I disagree with the assessment that taking those pvp/pve filler talents are really a problem. When you look at the new tree and assume that the new Lightning Reflexes isn't going to be worth taking and you're only going to take one weapon specialization (a real concern if weapons turn out like they did in TBC; I have to take Fist/Sword spec right now because of whats available to me), you probably see taking 6-8 points of talents that don't directly increase your DPS, but you have to realize that not every fight is Brutallus. There are 6 points early on you would have to stick somewhere, of which I see myself generically taking Endurance, Imp Sprint, and 2 probably in LR even if it doesn't change. Then you reach Tier 8, where you need an extra two points - I'd probably take Throwing Spec. Doing this nets you a whole lot of utility for yourself and the raid that you simply didn't have before - a 2 minute cooldown on Sprint, a sprint that breaks snares, and the PvP gloves bonus. Alternatively, you could go a different route if you see a Reliquary-style encounter where a Rogue has to tank - pick up a few points of Parry, LR, and Unfair Advantage if thats your fancy. I think that the departure from cookie-cutter builds is a good thing (that each rogue may spec differently for flavor). Another thing that strikes me is the ratio of flavor to cookie-cutter: you aren't ever getting away from taking 43 of the points in the Combat tree, but you have 8 points to do what you want with.

Honest-to-God, I probably see myself going a 5/51/15 route at 80 - so many perks for having Vanish, Sprint and Blind on a 2 minute cooldown, CloS back to 1 minute, Imp Sap, and the Deadly Throw interrupt bonus (because honestly, how many kicks does your guild miss on SW Dawn Priest trash? Mine does enough that I've started to wear my S4 gloves). This given spec nets me 4 magical snare breaks (2 physical/magical) in 2 minutes. Call me crazy, but as long as our DPS is fine compared to other classes and they make Assassination and Combat about equal (even varying amounts of equal - like having certain breakpoints), I see the game becoming more fun with this new added flavor.

 

kharen

Are you sure about that? Lethality explicitly states "increases the critical strike damage bonus [...] by 35%", whereas Prey on the Weak says "critical strike damage is increased by 25%". If that wording isn't misleading, and it does actually apply a 25% modifier on the full crit damage (like the RED), then Prey on the Weak is significantly stronger than Lethality even on yellow damage alone whenever it's in effect (250% crits rather than 235%).

If i can actually manage to log in to the EU beta, i can go test it, but i'm sure someone already has and can confirm one way or the other anyway.

edit: aha, knew i'd seen it analyzed somewhere. Turns out Vulajin already tested it (last post on that page), and found that it is indeed +25% critical strike damage.

 

Pharmacon

Did I miss something? Why are people bitching about Vitality being a crappy filler talent. 2% Agi is nothing to be mad about in a so called "filler" talent. Sure it's not supremely awesome (being between 12-20 Agi) but it's not like it's +1/+2 static Agi. Not to mention I'd rather have the 4% stam that Vitality yields rather than picking up 2% parry for the same point cost.

 

IMB111

one question concerning Mutilate: with focused attacks and the need to quickly reapply deadly poison after envenom will a fast OH-dagger probably be better than a slow one?

 

Dorvan

To early to say I think, but between Imp Poisons and the new post-Envenom poison application change, Mut rogues will have a 70% chance on every hit from both weapons to apply DP for 6 seconds after each Envenom, so I don't think a fast weapon will be necessary at all for that side of things.

 

tetracycloide

The most pertinant change to post-envenom poison application is moving find weakness from an active talent with a limited window post finisher to some kind of passive talent. By moving find weakness to a passive effect there is no longer any reason to mutilate immediatly after a finisher, like envenom, and there's no longer a penalty for waiting till DP is reapplied to mutilate again. Unless your energy caps out but that's far less likely than the current problem of missing the opportunity to get 2x mutilates and the next finisher into the 10 sec window because you were waiting for poisons.

My vanity is justified.

 

Dorvan

I don't think I'm following....the only reason not to wait a few seconds after a finisher to Mutilate is energy capping, not the FW timer....either you have enough energy to fit in two mutilates or you don't, and if you do have enough energy there's no reason you need to start Mutilating until 5 or 6 seconds after the finisher anyway unless your energy is about to cap out. Even now, 5 or 6 seconds is plenty of time to get at least one DP charge up.

 

Antiarc

Lethality increases the critical strike damage bonus, not the full damage amount. Thus, at 5/5 it was a 15% damage increase to Sinister Strike. PotW is a flat 25% damage buff to crits - a full 10% superior - and affects all damage.

Gimme PotW over Lethality any day.

 

spookz

Dont forget that PotW requires you to have more Health (% wise) than your Target. Depending on encounter design in LK the uptime may be way below 100%, especially at the beginning of the fight (i.e. Felmyst splash dmg)

 

tetracycloide

The only reason energy capping is an issue currently IS the FW timer. With no FW timer there's no longer a time crunch after finishers to use abilities and therefor a lot less reason to pool energy before finishers.

My vanity is justified.

 

Dorvan

Yep, that's true. It just didn't make sense before when you said that energy capping wasn't what forced you to Mut early. It is the reason, but FW is the root cause. Ok, we're on the same page now.

Hm, thinking further....energy pooling before a damage finisher might not be important anymore, but we may still be pooling energy before refreshing SnD (directly or via CttC), depending on the cycle. Not a factor if mut is exclusively using envenom, but envenom/rupture cycles will still need to be looked into I suppose, and you'd want to do any pooling you could before an SnD refresh.

 

Arindelest

Well, not necessarily. I don't think it's likely -- but if you didn't need to pool energy to make the cycle sustainable (and with a large amount of SnD slack) you wouldn't want to pool energy before a SnD(CttC) refresh, since that lowers Rupture uptime. Although with the new Rupture glyph we may be more worried about not overwriting our previous Ruptures than trying to maximize uptime, it all depends how it plays out.