Well, you didn't explicitly say it was useless, but phrases like
imply that you don't think very highly of that. Which is fine. I was partly using your post as an excuse to rant about SF, which I really do believe needs to be changed.

That said: I disagree that SF is required for Mutilate builds; if you take Ruthless (as you kind of have to due to lack of alternatives low in the tree) it gives you minimal benefit (at best), and you only need 1 more point after taking all the other DPS talents to get to the 35-point level. So taking one point of SF as filler? Sure. But I don't see why taking any more than that is required in the current trees.

Don't count on that just yet. Massive changes to the Warrior Arms tree have greatly increased their DPS, such that going deep Arms is (or is supposed to be) viable raid DPS in and of itself, as opposed to "need to get to Blood Frenzy and call it good".

Hildegard's point about fillers is this: Your DPS is going to be balanced against a min-max DPS build, regardless of how many talents of this are DPS and how many are mandatory fillers. The tree that has 5 points of DPS talents on that tier will *not* be doing more DPS, after balancing is done, than the tree that has 3 points of DPS as 2 points of filler. You're not doing less DPS without the talents, because your damage will be brought up to not need the "wasted" DPS talents. The result is that your min-maxed character gets some flexbility.

My personal preference is that you don't have filler until tier 4 or so, in order that you have some choice about what sort of filler you want. Old Subtlety tier 1 required you to flip a coin between two versions of improved stealth for talent choices, which means for some applications you're guaranteed something wortheless; needing two points of filler to get from tier 4 to 5 in combat gives you a broad selection of character customization.

Well, although this is a good point, it's also important to note that DPS Warriors are a subspec and Rogues are a class, so just by nature of that you're more likely to have rogues than DPS Warriors, whether Arms or Fury. Especially in a 10-man.

And to PSGarak: I'd state your case even more strongly. Balancing is *not* done on a per-talent basis (that is to say, each DPS talent is worth X and so having more of them gives you more DPS); rather, it is done based on gear, talents, skills, the raids themselves, etc. Having lots of DPS increasing talents doesn't necessarily make you do more DPS than having a few. Blizzard wants to balance a class to be doing ~Y DPS, and they'll do that whether you have lots of filler or you don't. I don't think having filler is a bad thing in any way -- a little filler here and there makes things more interesting. But it is also important to note that the "filler is fun" argument can be taken too far: imagine a talent tree with nothing but filler and a 51-point talent that increases your DPS by 1500. I wouldn't find that interesting or fun, I also enjoy the way DPS talents interact with other DPS talents, gear, etc. Filler talents can be fun but they don't have any of those deeper interactions which make the intricacies of a class.

I wouldn't count on that. DPS spec is DPS spec, regardless of the other options a class has. If combat rogue dps would be superior to MS warrior dps there would be no reason to bring a MS warrior to a raid, which is clearly the opposite of what blizz is intending.


Question to the filler discussion:
Let's assume that combat need about 8 fillerpoints (aka "not dps points") to get to 41+, while assassination doesn't need them at all, maybe even has not enough points for all dps talents. Lets also assume that given the best possible dps spec both combat and assassination would be equal on dps. Wouldn't the fillers in combat be fine?

Those are mainly a bunch of assumptions. We can't really say at the moment which tree will have more dps at the start of expansion, but combat will probably scale more with gear if the current talents don't change, mainly because poison is a static source of damage and that finishers scale slower than instants. Just from the looks of it though, I would just speculate that combat dagger will probably find the pre TBC glory in the end.

Regarding hybrid vs. dps classes, there certainly will be a gap, but just to reflect blizzard words "not as big as BC". Remains to be seen whether this gap is in form of stackable buffs that only main dps classes bring (like rogues and mages do at the moment) or 10-15% more personal dps. You won't suddenly see people run with 2 ferals or furies though if they have the choice. that's counter productive to the global buff changes to allow guilds to just take a single hybrid for a given buff and rely on main dps classes more than BC.

I can understand the mentality of "wanting no fillers" but I remember combat dagger before Opportunity was on tier one or even after that. It was a very very boring pure DPS spec, just like 0-21-40 for warlocks is right now. Specs should have options and the only option for any rogue to take a non dps talent is if there is no DPS talent there. How many of you would take a five-pointer "increases your attack power by 0,1/0,2/0,3/0,4/0,5% ? Rogues would take anything that increases their "Brutallus or Patchwerk" DPS.

In most of the end fights in TBC (Malchezaar (ok not really the hardest one), Gruul, Vashj, Kael'Thas, Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden mobility for example is a big issue. On fights like Al'ar or Gruul or Archimonde for example a ShS rogue has a seriously better DPS uptime than a combat rogue and I tend to believe that on some of these fights a ShS rogue with the same gear will outdamage a combat rogue.

What Blizzard wants is to improve the fun of the specs and if the fillers a well enough done this will be the case. They can still change the new ranks or buff certain abilities if our DPS is too low in Naxxramas.

Do you think this spec ( War Tools :: Talent tree Rogues as per Blue ) with 5/5 SwordSpec and 3/5 MaceSpec could outdps a pure SwordSpec , wearing a mace on main hand and a sword on off hand ?
Sorry if it's inopportune.

I think it all depends on how the armor ignore is calculated, as already mentioned in this thread, before or after additional mitigation effects.
If it is before other effects, you might be better off going strictly with mace spec, however if you don't have a decent mace offhand, it looks like an interesting option. Maybe 5 mace spec and 3 sword is even better.

We'll have to wait and let the theorycrafting do its work.


// Edit
I did a very quick and very dirty hack to the DPS spreadsheet, altering fist spec to the new mace spec (didn't want to bother with the current implementation of mace spec). Copied over the warglaive as a fist and checked against my current Brutallus setup (have only main hand, so no set bonus included).
So all values are with current gear, current armor values and current talents (besides mace spec).

If mace spec is calculated before other armor reducing effects:
3/5 mace, 5/5 sword: +16 DPS
5/5 mace, 3/5 sword: +48 DPS

If mace spec is calculated after other armor reducing effects:
3/5 mace, 5/5 sword: -57 DPS
5/5 mace, 3/5 sword: -76 DPS


// Edit 2
Welcome Warfist of Azzinoth and Fist of Savagery. Here are results with both main and offhand being "maces":

If mace spec is calculated before other armor reducing effects:
5/5 mace: +11 DPS

If mace spec is calculated after other armor reducing effects:
5/5 mace: -112 DPS

Somewhat inconclusive results. Maybe I made an error somewhere (not so unlikely). However, these numbers will change anyway with the new talents and altered raid buffs.

Sp00n, that is with 892 armor pen? (as your armory shows?)

edit: Also, did you count debuffs like sunder armor? I'd think these have a pretty huge effect on the actual armor being removed by mace spec depending on them being calculated first or last.

To be honest, I don't know how much ArP I have, never bothered.
The DPS sheet says 791 ArP through equipment (and I just noticed that I haven't entered the correct legs there).
With FF, CoR and SA it is a total of 4801 armor reduction.

I agree with Aldriana in that SF is a worse talent than Ruthlessness. However I can't come up with a good way to fix the variability of SF. Making Ruthlessness 100% and skipping SF is my best solution to the SF's problem. A Ruthlessness proc and 2 mutilates would be 5 cp's every time for 5 talent points. I am currently spending 8 talent points to get an approximately 90% chance of the same thing.

Mutilate has the underlying problem of returning an even number of CP's in a pool with an odd numbered cap. Currently we put 3 points in Ruthlessness and 5 points in SF to try to gt that last CP. Yet it feels like I am still stuck at 4 points all the time having to decide between another mutilate and a weak rupture. Yet, I am also stuck with those talents because without them there is no good mutilate cycle.


The coolest solution would be a talent that increases the CP cap to 6, but I do not see it happening this late in beta.

The difference is that designers don't need to always go with a "point for point worth" approach. Yes, 5 points ruthlessness would be strong, but such thing doesn't exist, therefor SF is important. It's like arguing whether a 5 point version of surprise attacks would be good or not; yes it would beat most other talents, but still such thing doesn't exist.

However I do agree that SF has lost it's "oomph" in middle of Molten Core era. It should have been moved to combat long time ago. The issue is that the design concept blizzard is using is neither constant, nor efficient. For example Mutilate was never meant to be a talent in assassination when it was designed. It was meant to be a core spell that functioned slightly different. Then they just moved it in assassination, while making talents like SF even weaker in the process. SF, combined with backstab, if it was in the right tree, would still be one of the most powerful talents we got.

I understand your point that adding talent points to any talent would make it better. However, I think that Surprise Attacks is a bad example. Ruthlessness is more like the old Sap that broke Stealth 50% of the time or the original Cheat Death that would resist the killing blow only 33% of the time, or the current Mace Stun that everyone is complaining about in the Arena.

I see a trend in removing the big RNG dependent talents in the game. I hope Ruthlessness becomes one of them.

Raising the cap to 6 would add problems with cycle lengths. The 2xmut per finisher cycle with CttC is already going to be strained without improved SnD and this would make it worth. Honestly I'd rather SF were changed to make 4 point finishers act like 5 point finishers than add another point for a 6 point cap.

E.G.
Seal Fate: Your finishing moves have a 5/10/15/20/25% chance per combo point to add a combo point to your target before striking.

Old seal fate RNG sillyness would be gone on 4pt + finishers and it would ease the cycle length problem mutilate as with CttC without requiring wasting 3 points in imp SnD and/or a glyph slot on glyph of SnD. Granted this would make ruthlessness almost completely worthless to mutilate builds.

Those are mostly PvP examples, and with good reason: a single lucky Mace Spec proc can swing an entire arena match and the like. A single Ruthlessness proc is not going to win or lose you a boss fight (well, unless you wiped with the boss under ~500 health or something.) RNG in general is a much bigger deal in PvP since the scale is so much smaller, and that's why Blizzard wants to change it. Since you only have 4/6/10 people fighting, one person getting dramatically lucky changes a lot more than one person getting lucky or unlucky out of 25 -- and especially in the case of DPS. Not only that, but a certain amount of RNG actually makes PvE difficult (fights that have too much RNG aren't that fun though -- yes I'm looking at you Eredar Twins -- ), you have to react to a situation (do something different if Ruthlessness procs or doesn't, but on a larger scale, something like heal the person who took that damage) Getting Ruthlessness to proc might give you a bit more damage but in a 10-minute fight you're never going to notice the difference anyways.

However, today, we the DPS get Blessing of Salvation. The boosts to tank threat generation in the beta appears to be < blessing of salvation (I have a level 70 paladin tank raiding at somewhat lower levels than my rogue and keep informed on the paladin changes also). I think it is likely that this kind of buff on the tank will be necessary. Paladin itemization is going to have to be completely different and if you currently have a paladin tank in your guild that tanks much, there will be a mad scramble for more warrior-like gear. It is not obvious that the proposed threat changes for paladins will make up the 30% Blessing of Salvation. It's also not obvious that they won't, but you can see where Tricks of the Trade might be needed down the road.

Imagine adding 30% to your TPS today (and to everyone in your guild, particularly locks who get threat capped first).

There has been plenty of (well warranted, but perhaps pre-mature?) discussion of what the optimal build for pve DPS would be- but has anyone worked out an optimal grinding build yet? we've got 10 lvls to grind before we have to start worrying about topping meters.

While I agree and also want more damage output at all times, I think you are missing the true utility of TotT. I see this being used in what I would call a "cold start" tanking situation. For example, on trash pulls, every warrior tank has issues generating enough immediate threat due to his rage starvation. I can see the threat transfer as a way to help him hold the mob against the focus fire dps coming in, but more importantly, by increasing his damage output, you also increase, in part, his rage generation and in turn his direct threat. Not just for the time TotT is active, but carrying through to the rest of the pull. (below)

This "cold start" threat and damage (ie rage) boost for warriors would also be great utility for aggro wipes on mobs that "leave" the MT and then come back. Helping to reestablish the MT and replenish any rage that had diminished. Or by, and this was mentioned before, helping to keep another tank 2nd on aggro for fights, and keeping the OT rage level up.

In terms of our current other tanking choices, both Palis and Druids would benefit as well. Perhaps they benefit not as greatly as a warrior in the situations above, but a benefit nonetheless. Using this ability mid fight when the tank has ample threat and rage generation would be wasteful.

Having the damage apply to the casting rogue would be nice; however, it would remove at least a small component of its underlying utility.

While this would be an awesome change, I see the caster PvPers of the world melting down. It'd translate to unlimited (well, energy limited) Deadly Throws in the arenas. No more kiting, no more casting.

With a focus macro, it would create fun interrupts on Council, though (with Gladiator Gloves).

Not that they couldn't code it, but I'd be equally happy with them tweaking SF to have it make a CP buffer that stored extra combo points (above 5) and simply put them back into play when a finisher got used. Change targets? Lose the points.

So you scored a CritMut at 4 CP? Two CP's go into the hopper and are placed back into your pool after you used Rupture/Envenom/Eviscerate/whatever. Plus, you could still get benefit from Ruthlessness is you chose the talent. You possibly use a finisher right into 3CP's. It also fits well into how the Assassination tree is designed.

I was planning on using something along the lines of
War Tools :: Talent tree Rogues as per Blue
then putting 5 pts into imp dual-wielding.

Essentially if you want to level, 21 points in sub is a must.
imp sap for grouping
imp stealth because you will be sneaking around mobs 2-3 levels higher than you
elusiveness and prep for quicker oh shit buttons

While mobility is a big issue in those fights, the difference in dps uptimes doesn't make up for the lack of damage on ShS build compared to combat specs. Getting to boss 2-3 seconds earlier is nice and all, but considering difference in DPS was estimated to be 15% or so in "never move" -situation in old Roguecraft thread, which would mean combat rogue would need to spend 9 seconds per minute outside while ShS rogue can go on, and that doesn't currently happen in those fights, except maybe for Kil 'Jaeden (I haven't seen this fight so I have no idea) or Archimonde (in a case you can use ShS like blink and interrupt the Air Burst). Energy pooling will of course happen, which will diminish the gap between ShS and combat obviously, but I wouldn't think this being such a huge gap closer between these specs. Then again I might be screwing up the napkin math in my head.

Now what comes to fillers, I don't mind spending points to talents that I have some use for in endgame pve-raids. I've especially liked Improved Sprint in some bosses and trash, but the talents that only has some use if you're stupid enough to go in taking cleaves like Lightning Reflexes, Deflection and Riposte, or simply doesn't work on anything relevant like Blade Twisting or Improved Kick, I really start getting annoyed when only use of the talents I spend my points at are simply to fill the needed amount to gain later talents. Then again, there's still plenty of time and maybe we'll see some changes in all this regarding completely useless fillers, perhaps Blood Spatter in combat tree considering it's placing in Assassination is so weird it being such poison+Envenom buffing tree.