Dorvan

Well yes, it could be something as simple as a synergy debuff, I just had something more interactive/radical in mind. Something along the lines of: Rogue initiates some combo, which gives a notification to another player...if the other player hits some key within a certain time, you perform a combo move for extra damage. Something along the lines of:

-- Rogue creates an open wound while a mage casts a fireball causing internal burning
-- Deathknight imbues the rogue with disease right as they strike
-- Warrior picks up gnomish rogue and throws them dagger-first at the enemy

etc.

The playstyle is probably beyond the scope of WoW, but Rogues as combo initiators for high damage abilities otherwise unavailable would give them a place in the raid, scale with multiple rogues, and add an interesting gameplay element.

 

tetracycloide

Looks to be roughly a 200-300 DPS boost depending on the fight. In all fairness stefang was topping their charts before he had the bow so it's really not surprise that stefang is still topping them now.

Rogues could legitimately be replaced by throidal hunters but how many guilds are there with more than 3 already? how many will there be before WotLK? I'd chalk that imbalance up to poor for site on blizzard's part what with the no ammo change and steady shot mechanics making the bow absurdly overpowered.

My vanity is justified.

 

patcherke

I was doing some spreadsheet math lately to check out 2 fellow rogues, to help them with suggestions about gear up and enchants, and to give them some useful information about how to increase their DPS.

Both rogues have similar gear (medium Kara, with some blues left), and both were missing one or both times Mongoose on their weapons.

The first person (P1) is a sword specced rogue, with +20 Agility on mainhand and Mongoose on offhand
The second person (P2) is dagger specced, without any enchants on his weapons.

I used the spreadsheet to see how much DPS increase Mongoose would do if I put it on.

This is what happened :

P1 : changing +20 Agility to Mongoose on mainhand : +25 DPS (and as the +20 Agility is a +10 DPS enchant, Mongoose means an upgrade of +35 DPS on itself)

P2 : Putting Mongoose on both hands : + 13.5 DPS on mainhand , + 13.45 on offhand when applied separately. But overall results when applied both was +27.3 DPS.

I found it very strange that the ‘single Mongoose’ enchant on P1 has got more effect then the ‘double Mongoose’ put on P2.

It seems that Mongoose has got more effect when applied on slower weapons.
(This is proven by the fact that the gear of both rogues was of the same level)
I cannot pinpoint exactly what is going on here, so please help out.

Furthermore, Mongoose also seems to scale with the gear/weapon. On my own gear, and on better weapons, the increase was even bigger. And that mongoose also affects the mongoose on the other weapon to a certain extent.
And as a consequence Mongoose also scales with raid buffs (although to a lesser extent)

Can someone explain why this is the case?

 

choumarin

Hi,
I was wondering if there is any way, or even if it is relevant, to measure the energy I loss due to caping?

 

• Vulajin

I'm not sure if there is any existing tool/method to track it, but I would think that since you spend most of a typical fight staring at your energy bar, you should have a good sense of how much energy you've lost to hitting the cap. More than trying to track how much you're screwing up, just start paying attention when you cap out, and try to make a mental note of the situation that caused you to do it. Then avoid that situation in the future.

 

choumarin

As a mutilate spec, the usual situation when I cap is when I'm filling my bar to restart the snd,mut,mut,rupt cycle. I usually have 2, 3 or 4 cp (depending on crit/ruth procs) and I wait until ~80 energy. If the talent proc I get +25 and if the tick just happens there I get 80+25+20 and I feel like I'm loosing energy. If I only wait for ~60energy, and the +25 doesnt proc I really struggle to get the 2 mutilates just in time :/

 

a grue

[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers

Mongoose "improves" itself because it can stack, and being an agi/haste effect raid buffs enhance it further.

choumarin: Can you not time your finisher so it hits just before a tick?

 

choumarin

I do, and that's exactly when it becomes anoying ^^ let's say I time my snd at 80+ (meaning just about to get 100), if Relentless Strikes procs I get 80 + 20 + 25 = 15 LOSS.
I supose I should snd at most at 110-25-20 = 65+ ?

 

drumbum

You omitted the energy cost of SND: 80 - 25 + 25 + 20 = 100, so still OK. Of course, if there's even a small chance of capping on energy, then there's no need to stretch it to the limit. Plus there's a chance your finisher will be dodged -- assuming you aren't expertise capped -- which would cause you to wait another global to try again.

 

Repins

I'm unsure if this has been said before and I hope it hasn't but wouldn't a fair and extremely helpful buff for rogues be if haste affected energy gain? When looking at a damage meter you can always tell what rogue did the most dps by looking at the energy gained meter (assuming they no how to play their class). It seems as if either haste affecting the cooldowns of blade furry/ar/trinkets or affecting energy gain would be a good fair buff. Personally it doesn't seem as if a group buff fits into the "rogue" character and thus I am trying to think of some other way to make a rogue more effective. It seems to me with shamans being able to heal/melee dps/caster dps and paladins being able to tank/melee dps/heal and warriors being able to dps/tank that it makes no sense as to why a rogue that has no party buffs and can do nothing but dps shouldn't be the best at dpsing. It seems as if it would be appropriate to put rogues clearly on top of damage meters since it is the only thing the class can actually do and making haste affect energy gain is a fair way to do it.

 

Salamir

This sounds a lot like LoTRO's "Fellowship Maneuvers" (sp?) executed primarily by Burglers. I think this would add a really neat dynamic and rogue group synergy. Unfortunately, I don't see Blizzard adding this type of new functionality to the game.

It's funny, I've been complaining about the lack of rogue group abilities for a long, long time. It's nice to find others that share my frustrations.

Sal

 

choumarin

Point taken

 

Jakani

Mongoose is a PPM based proc. When you apply it to a slow weapon, it gets a high proc rate. For your rogue that is combat swords, they're putting out a lot more special attacks than a backstab rogue, so they have much better uptime as a result.

Furthermore, Mongoose also seems to scale with the gear/weapon. On my own gear, and on better weapons, the increase was even bigger. And that mongoose also affects the mongoose on the other weapon to a certain extent.
And as a consequence Mongoose also scales with raid buffs (although to a lesser extent)

Can someone explain why this is the case?[/quote]

Mongoose scales with gear because it provides 120 agility, which is ~3% crit. The better your gear, the more valuable the extra crit. It also provides 2% haste, which gets better with gear as well. (and raid buffs)

 

bcimhe

Jay stated...

"We don't provide any raid or group synergy but we rely on raid and group makeup more than any other dps class. Now I'm not one of those who thinks the "fix" is to give us some type of utility. In fact I like the underlying class mechanics of a rogue , hence why I play it.

To brass tacks, do you feel that in the current incarnation of the game that Blizz is able to bring us on par with other damage dealing classes with regards to raiding?

I personally am starting to feel that they can't due to balance issues in other aspects of the game. The biggest balance issue is mainly if they were to increase our "base" dmg it would have ripples in the pvp/arena scene. Adding to this is the "Glaive/Sword" situation. What I mean by that is the weapon imbalance already present wouldn't be fixed in fact it would be exacerbated. Though by WotLK raiding the glaive issue will be gone (I believe) but the sword issue won't be. I understand as well the need to keep different aspects of the game balanced and I don't have a huge problem with it. I'm also not going to expect sweeping class changes. So with the expansion on the horizon and with it a new melee dps class is it time for a reroll? "


I agree with you that Blizz will find it very difficult to keep our class viable. If all we do is damage then we are automatically the least valuable dps in the raid...dmg being equal. One simple change would add indispensible utility without making us any more powerful in pvp. Simply transfer some or all of the threat reduced by feint to the tank. I realize most rogues hate using feint. I do too. I want to top dmg not buff the tank. However we're quickly becoming the most disposable class in the game if nothing changes.

 

tetracycloide

But the damage isn't equal. Rogues are head and shoulders above every class and spec combination with the single exception of BM hunters with legendary bows (possibly survival hunters with legendary bows too this remains to be seen). Bows which only drop once the entire game is on farm status. This fact has been evident in all of that actual data presented in this thread.

My vanity is justified.

 

Kytrarewn

You're comparing off of warglaives. Stop that.

Without legendaries in consideration, Rogues, Warlocks, Hunters all can easily put out 2200-2300DPS, with otherwise best-in-slot gear (with rogues, of course, requiring 3 support classes in their group, rather than just a shaman and a druid to hit that level of DPS, or an elem shaman and a shadowpriest for the lock).

Mages hit 2100 to 2200.

Enh Shaman and Arms War can hit 1900-2000.

I wouldn't call that "Heads and shoulders above every other class" when in fact it amounts to ~3% DPS across the classes that provide little to no other raid utility.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

tetracycloide

Comparisons have been done in this thread that take the entire population of rogues into account, not just those with glaives. If you want to post some actual numbers to back up your gloom and doom claims about rogue DPS being dead the go right ahead. This is a theorycrafting forum though, we respect actual math here, not 'ZOMG THE DPS IS NT MAXORZS, WTF GIVS?'

At the end of the day the glaives DO exist and they are the only legendary relevent to sunwell progression, which just makes the case all that much stronger. Not to mention the fact that ~3% DPS is more than significant enough to matter.

My vanity is justified.

 

Dorvan

Energy regen already does scale with haste for Combat rogues via Combat Potency.

 

◊ gwystyl

Tetracycloide, the concern I have with your posts thus far is that they suggest an unwillingness to even consider another perspective on some critical points. Please explain a little more why you insist that warglaive set rogues attacking demons should be considered a balancing point for rogue raid dps? The fact that they are legendary should count for something other than the fact that they are, otherwise, lackluster and hardly deserving their font color on anything other than a demon. Further, given their rarity, it seems to be a logically indefensible position to maintain that a double warglaive rogue doing 2800-3k dps is correctly balanced vs hunters doing 2800-3k dps without Thori'dal. Unless you mean to tell me your firm belief is that hunters bring no value to a raid other than their personal dps, I don't see how you can look at the standings and say "yep, that's about right."

This is looking at the top 15 WWS Scoreboard holders on Brutallus. Unless I'm very behind on current events, none of those parses on the hunter side feature a Thori'dal whereas all the parses on the rogue side feature double warglaives. The hunters would do that damage against any kind of boss. The rogues would lose a significant step on any non-demon.

Insofar as your earlier analysis amongst the classes, I'm sure it was time consuming but the flaw in thinking was already discussed. You can't average out an entire class when there are 2 prevailing specs that one class uses, one of which is a sacrificial "take one for the team" spec. It makes such comparisons irrelevant. If there were a way to segregate via spec on WWS, I'd offer up a counter but to my knowledge, there isn't.

You also levied the point that looking at the top performers has the problem of making class comparisons using exceptionally talented players. OK, fine, but it stands to reason that the talent pools would have similar levels of skill distributed among the classes so comparing the best of one vs the best of the other doesn't seem harmful.

It also bears noting that some of the top 15 scoreboard holders on the rogue side did it with very unrealistic group synergies. Their raid groups literally focused the other 4 members of that group on pumping up the rogue. I saw MS warrior, enh shaman, ret, feral AND rogue groupings. Compare that to 3x hunter, shaman, feral which is entirely more likely. The feral gains massive threat gen via FI, avoidance via GoA when tanking, massive dps via both of those tools when FITE-ing (cat durid is fore fite!), hunters gaining synergistic FI stacking and LotP as well as GoA and mana return, shaman gaining LotP and FI stacking if enhancement and you have a beautiful grouping where everyone is helping one another and producing truly wonderful results.

Now look back at the rogue leech(es) in their group producing the same results ONLY IF they have legendary weapons on a demon boss type and offering nothing in return for their group.

I just can't seem to get myself to see your perspective, but I do want to understand it.

Edit: I just rechecked the scoreboard and the landscape has changed a little

 

lubricious

Unless I missed something somewhere, the concerns I and many other people have about rogue viability stem from the pending addition of yet another melee DPS class, which may have more utility and raid-role options than rogues (like every other melee class).

Comparing current WWS parses against current bosses and using current equipment as proof that rogues are currently viable in raids is rather pointless in the context of future viability for the expansion. Rogues are perfectly viable right now. However, whether or not we stay that way will depend heavily on exactly what changes Blizzard makes to our class in relation to the other classes. If our personal DPS (since it's all we have) becomes marginalized by the abilities of the new class, it can be reasonably assumed rogue raid slots will drop to somewhere between one and none. Therefore, some of us have chosen to discuss ways we think Blizzard should go about adding to our raid contribution. If you don't think rogues have anything to worry about, then good for you, but we choose to discuss how we feel about the class anyway.

 

Cally

I'd have to agree with Gwystyl.

For quick reference, here is the top 15 dps for Brutallus.

9 of the top 15 slots are taken by hunters WITHOUT legendaries. If Brutallus were not a demon or if you remove the warglaives from the rogues, I think that rogues would drop off entirely from that list. If I were a min-maxing type of raid leader I would probably remove rogues entirely since hunters alone can match their raw dps while providing a group buff. Plus it's much easier to get a T6 geared hunter than a double warglaive rogue.

 

Provendor

Being one of those rogues on that "Top 15" you'd have to take into account the way people stack their groups. My achievement was done about almost 2 months ago and still remains up there. Right after I topped the chart we stopped doing the fight that way because it required too much time/effort to stack the raid that way. As we know, Rodemboo has since stopped raiding. Thus these numbers are practically useless. As stated it is much easier to stack a raid group for the Brutallus fight that for Hunters than it is for Rogues. Catalyst was one of the few that continued to do the encounter in this fashion until they stopped raiding. For the Hunters that are topping the meter now, they probably run Brutallus with their normal raid setups. Stacking a fight for a rogue to maximize DPS has at this point become much more difficult and unnecessary in light of the new Hunter figures. It is this fact that the synergy required to make the rogue "head and shoulders above" is so difficult at this stage that worries the rogues about the new upcoming talents and skills. However as yet without insight into WOTLK we cannot make any judgements. Yes I believe that rogues should be able to top damage meters now (especially since they bring no synergy to the group their in and require so much more to do that top damage), but like stated above we have no idea what Blizzard has in mind for us. We can only hope that some decent people get into Beta to fight on our behalf.

 

Dky

Did anyone see this post: WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Hemo DPS Higher than Full Combat for Raids ?
I was wondering exactly how valid his math is.

 

kargathia

This is the state of hemo before the 2.3.2 nerf, where a trispec indeed looked a little like it might produce more raiddps, right now hemo is nerfed to 110% weapon damage in a trispec, which let's the viability end about the time you are entering TK/SSC.

 

◊ gwystyl

Ah, so Provendor = Chhybrid. Good to know. I don't think the incremental 400 armor pen translates into 300 dps, though.
:-P

Back on point, though. Would it be absolutely the end of the world if Blizzard would allow rogues to ignore the glancing blow damage reduction? It was already been pointed out in this thread. It doesn't affect pvp whatsoever and would be a very simple way to get our damage back up where it needs to be. This has to be paired with something we can do to raise the threat ceiling, though, because I'm already flirting with the 107% threat line and if you pair this with the suggestion to modify Feint to be more like Misdirect, you have something that could really benefit the raid.

You'd have rogues losing some damage due to having Feint in a cycle, and in exchange the raid benefits from a higher threat ceiling. If one rogue is insufficient to keep this up, you bring 2 to do it. This loss is offset by eliminating glancing blows for rogues and you have a net damage gain *with* raid utility.

The few aggro-sensitive tank-switch fights that Blizzard is sure to want to employ can find a way to work around this, or build rogues in as an intended mechanic to make tank transitions easier.