Before I start I have to admit some bias. Currently I'm a trispec hemo 11/26/24, even though I know full well its not as much dps as combat swords, I just love my mace stun and hemo and all the toys subt gives me.
With that in mind, any thoughts on this build for wrath?
The first couple of points in both ass and combat make excellent filler points, and the lolstep is a lot of fun. If I understand it correctly as well, Honor Among Thieves is basically free combo points every 1-2 seconds in a raid as well so should be relatively competitive dps wise? A lot of talents there that scale with gear and kings (Sinister calling, deadliness etc) and lots of extra crit dmg so it should scale really well with crit from what I can see?
Poisons are abit out of control at the moment, my rogue on beta level 73 with full t6 including SWP pieces standard poison talents in Assasination, instant poison tooltip was reading 600ish and I was doing 800ish on mobs, non elites dieing literaly in seconds barely having time for a 2nd mutilate.
Yeah, i just got done doing some testing on the boss-level target dummy:
Bear in mind, my gear is far from spectacular (and actually, it's even worse on beta - i don't have the badge belt or Ring of a Thousand Marks [using Gronn-Stitched Girdle and the Violet Eye exalted ring instead], and i'm using Malchazeen/Emerald Ripper, as they're the only daggers i had available), and that's completely solo, no external buffs at all (and i was being sloppy with cooldowns, too).
Cycle was a straightforward get SnD rolling to start, then Mutilate on 4+ CPs, relying on CttC to refresh SnD. HfB stacked up to start (actually, shortly after starting, as i forgot about it at first), then refreshed every ~25s or so.
A question about your cycle Kharen: How smooth is HfB threading into the cycle? Is it something that can be reliably timed or something a little more fluid? I also noticed that you skipped Infectious Poisons, and the numbers in your Recount seem like they're already heading for a "re-balancing".
Simply astounding numbers though. Thanks for the SS.
A question about your cycle Kharen: How smooth is HfB threading into the cycle?
Felt a little weird. Hard to say if that's just unfamiliarity and not having a good timer for it, though (using little more than the base UI right now, so i was having to squint at buff timers).
It did tend to leave pauses when i wasn't mutilating for a while, though.
edit: just got done doing some more testing, after respeccing to shift points from fleet footed to infectious poisons. Also had a prot warrior testing on the same dummy (they're... getting a lot of use...), so had a 5-stack of sunders most of the time, and pulled my Searing Sunblade out of the bank to replace my Emerald Ripper. Results: 3230dps, with Instant coming in at 54.8% of my total damage.
edit again: Looking at the summary, it looks like Recount might be slightly buggy on this build, actually. Not seeing _any_ crits from anything, so it might be parsing some stuff wrong. I think it's still getting damage totals right, though. It's also showing me as scoring Crushings with melee attacks.
edit 3: aha, i see what's going on now. It's logging hits (or maybe glances... looking at my combat log i'm not seeing many normal hits, probably as i just hit 72 prior to the server going down and my weapon skill isn't maxed outas crushes and crits as glancings. Not sure where actual glances are going. Explains why it was showing IP as glancing in my screenshot, too.
That is some crazy, crazy poison damage. 81% application rate for IP is impressive in and of itself, but for 800+ damage per it's astounding.
Do you have any idea how many times Deadly is stacking in a one Mutilate cycle? At that application rate and hasted it should theoretically be at least four every time, but I'm curious if that's working out in practice.
In case anyone was worried, confirmed Lethality on beta tonight affecting Shiv and Mutilate at the least. The logical conclusion is that it also affects Sinister Strike, Gouge, Hemorrhage, and other combo point builders.
Did not attempt finisher testing, if I do I'll edit this post, but I leave it for anyone else if they're interested.
Do you have any idea how many times Deadly is stacking in a one Mutilate cycle? At that application rate and hasted it should theoretically be at least four every time, but I'm curious if that's working out in practice.
If i Envenom a 5-stack off at the minimum energy, it's stacking to 5 again by the time i have energy to hit Mutilate again.
Regarding RS; If they don't plan to reduce it to 3 points, it would make sense if they removed the "chance" factor and made it more of a talent you could put 3-4 points in, while keeping the consistency in energy replenishment. Something along the line of: Your finishing moves restore 1/2/3/4/5 energy per combo point.
The poisons are way overtuned currently. I was doing 1600 auto attack dps (no snd, no hfb) on a 'boss' testing dummy with just double IP. With 1335 DP ticks and 700-800 IP procs. The fact that I have around 90% IP proc chance does not help either. I guess the bug with Improved Poisons is not fixed yet (in the latest build you had 100% IP proc chance with just 1 point in imp. poions).
Deadly Brew works, but it procs Deadly Poison IX. I could not find it on vendors so I dont know what it actually is.
Can't test more as eu servers are crashing every 5 minutes. Even Azerorth crashes.
Murder still has its classification restrictions.
Focused Attacks is still NYI I guess as I didn't notice any energy gains in msbt from it (could not check out combat log because of the server crash).
Also, I dueled level 77 pally. He had arounf 13k hp. 'Died' under cheap shot.
First, regarding the poison topic: yes, poison DPS seems to be out of control, but i think it would be neat if poisons become a much greater part of our damage. Not only because this would help our DPS, but also would this add to feeling of being "rogueish"
With the ongoing changes to our talent trees and Blues asking for feedback on the Beta forums, i'd really like to see some further tweaks to the assassination tree. I still believe that Relentless Strikes needs to be trainable. Furthermore, the 11 Point, 21 Point and 31 Point Talents seem to be weak or out of place and need to be revised. I'd like to see Vigor and Cold Blood merged into a single talent that passively awards 10 energy and can be activated for the Cold Blood buff. This would still be weak talent in regards to raid dps but would be nice for PvP.
Cold Blood obviously is removed as the 21 point talent and will be replaced with a compressed to 1 point Seal Fate. Adriana suggested such a change to Seal Fate and i think it's a great idea. As a replacement i would suggest to move Focused Attacks to tier 7 and change it to a 5 point talent that awards 5 energy.
Especially on the Beta forums people complained about Overkill and i have to agree. While it certainly helps with a stunlock it's not much of a help after the first time coming out of stealth. I'd rather like to see it changed to an ability that reduces the energy costs of all finishing moves by 10 and reducing the cost of offensive abilities used after a finishing move lands by 10 for 2 seconds. This talent would have an obvious synergy with Relentless Strikes because finishing moves with energy costs of 25 would generate 10 energy on usage and 35 energy finisher would have their costs completly refunded. Moreover, reducing the cost of offensive abilities like Mutilate by 10 energy could deliver substantial burst in PvP and also would be of use in raiding as well. I like that such a talent would promote energy pooling.
I don't think that such changes would be imbalanced. I haven't done in-depth theory crafting on this, though.
But anyways, yeah poisons are currently an insane portion of your damage, especially when you get to the level 79 IP.
I'm 79, this was vs. the level 80 normal target dummy. Didn't really have many other debuffs on them (right after a server crash), and I obviously wasn't buffed either.
I'm guessing from looking at it the "Glancing" attacks were actually my crits, and the "Crushing" were actually my glancing, but yeah.
My gear at this point is about half Halls of Stone/other dungeon loot and half some of the better badge loot from TBC. Not Sunwell geared so it may skew a little more towards poison in that regard, but I'd suspect it would still be at least half of my DPS.
In terms of cycle, this attempt I just did SnD at hte start, and then spam Envenom when at 4+ CPs and relying on that to keep SnD up. HfB timing felt a little weird but it's just a matter of getting used to it...really easy to keep it up though with 30s duration.
I like this new build specially the changes to Bloodsplater going up to tier2 allow combat swords/maces/fist to access lethality without forcing a imp evis, so now there is 2 options, so i like it.
Still feel that Relentless should be reduced to 3 point talent allowing dagger builds to get both talents (oportunity and relentless)
Mutilate 51/15/5
Combat daggers 15/51/5
After playing with it a bit more, there definitely is a lot of room in your cycle to throw in Ruptures, obviously depending on crits and such. You have to really pay attention to your HfB and SnD timers and make sure you bank as much energy as possible and wait until the last moment to refresh them. As a rough estimate I'd say on average you'll have maybe 1 3-5 point Rupture for every 2 Envenoms. The number of CPs is of course very variable though, and the penalty for messing up your cycle is really high compared to a Combat spec. Having to restack HfB or SnD because you missed a refresh is painful.
Isn't Evenom alone because of the increased poison application the single best finisher except SnD for a Mutilate Build ? Why ever spend those combo points on ruptures ?
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
Just playing around with the current builds gives sooooo many interesting options.
Depending on how poisons are going to be tweaked, I can easily see Assassination and Combat builds with as much as 13 points into Subtlety now.
The move of DW to T1 and of RS to Sub T1 while making it a 5-pointer seems perfectly ballanced. Yes, this means placing points in more than 2 trees, but I really wonder why people would have a problem with that. It's only cosmetics whether you use 1, 2 or 3 trees, the important thing is that you are able to get the talents that matter, which you can.
Close Quarters at Combat T3 is basically an incentive for Combat builds to forget about Dual Swords. Dual Sword vs Fist-Sword is already very comparible. Prey on the Weak seems to give a little nudge forward to fist and dagger specs, since those have higher crit chances. So it looks like Fist-Sword will end up a little bit better than dual-Sword, but the difference between the two won't be much bigger than it is now. In exchange, a dual-sword rogue will get 5 talent points to spend on utility and survivability. Call it a waste, if you like, but dual-sword being ahead of everything else, like it was, was an imballance that needed fixing in the first place. Be happy they did it by slightly favouring the other weapons, instead of nerfing sword spec.
Try going for Killing Spree in Combat with a fist-sword build: you'll find only 2 non-DPS fillers along the way, while in TBC you'd have at least 5 of those and would have to draw 4 talentpoints away from the Assassination tree as well to fill out fist spec.
I think we should hope for Blizz to mostly keep the trees as they designed them now. Maybe some small tweaks here and there, but no major changes. Instead, they can probably use some number crunching on all the new mechanics, to ballance those.
Oh, and the filler-count for reaching the 51-pointers. Always interesting:
Assassination: no non-DPS fillers needed
Combat: 2 (builds including fist/dagger) - 7 (builds not including fist/dagger) non-DPS fillers needed
Subtlety: 4-5 non-DPS fillers needed (depends whether you go dagger, hemo or a combination of these two)
I'd love to focus a portion of this discussion on how we'll be spending our 61 points at 70 on the new talents when they are released to us before WotLK. We'll have to live and raid with them for months (imho) before we see the expansion, and will have that amount of time to refocus our attention on where we'd spend the points we'll get from 70-80. Also note we'll be getting glyphs pre-woltk.
I'd leave out the glyphs for now as I suspect most of the really gameplay-changing ones will require Northrend materials once all is said and done. But some focus on 61-point builds would be really appreciated. Also, I'd like some consideration of what can be done with non-dagger builds - there must be plenty of us who are well-geared with swords or fists, but may not be able to get a decent set of daggers until WoTLK hits. Or will we all be buying the badge daggers on the day 3.0 hits live?
Assuming swords and 61 talent points, is it best to stick to something similar to the current combat swords build, cannibalising a few points from poison talents to get Relentless back? Or are the poison talents so powerful that you want to drop some of the top half of combat to pick up the new poison talents? From the posts above it seems poisons are frankly broken and we just can't know yet what the right choice will be.
09/05/08, 11:15 PM
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