So I ran part of Naxx 10 last night (Maexxana, Gothik, 4h, and Abom Wing), and so here's some more data to crunch your numbers against. Overall, most of the boss fights I ran either 1st or 2nd. I ran 3rd on Gluth likely due to just the nature of our strat causing me to get quite a few parries or time off target, and I did terribly on Gothik as you guys know what dead side is like.
The only person I couldn't consistently beat was an Arcane Specced mage using Arcane Blast for 90%+ of his damage. Which probably isn't intended, and he also outgears me fairly well so I can't complain too much really.
Patchwerk, who's probably the most interesting, is specifically here: Patchwerk
Here's the build I was running: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Pretty much exactly what I posted before except I went with 3/3 Turn the Tables instead of 3/3 Master Poisoner since we had 4 pallies. Sadly on Patchwerk we only had a 16% uptime for Heart of the Crusader . Also, I dropped one point in CQC and instead got 2/2 Deadly Brew.
For buffs, we kind of had half of the melee ones and half of the caster ones. For instance on Patchwerk, I had untalented Strength of Earth, but then we ran Wrath of Air and Totem of Wrath. I had BoM, BoK, Patchwerk was sundered fully, and we also had the Imp Scorch and Misery spell debuffs on him. And our Shaman used their Heroism when Patchwerk was at 30%. I think I hit all the major ones, but I may have missed something, that's what the breakdown is for!
For consumables, I just had an Elixir of Agility and the +Agi TBC food, forgot what it's called exactly. I only used the consumables for Patchwerk pretty much. I kept SnD and HfB up the entire fight until I died immediately on enrage (I guess he Hatefuls a second target when enraged?). CP cycle was essentially 4+ Envenom, and in a couple cases I had so much spare time on my SnD I threw down a Rupture (though that's probably not optimal). And I (of course) had dual Instant Poison IX on my weapons.
My gear was exactly the same as I posted on page 84, except I now have a +6 expertise/+6 hit gem on my helm. Additionally, on Gluth I got some purple leather belt (forgot the name) which I thus had on Thaddius.
I took a quick shot at testing the DPS in Vulajin's sheet this morning and the number I saw on Patchwerk (2,767) aligned pretty closely to what was predicted by the sheet, but I didn't check and make sure everything was set right. But it seems substantially closer than what I was seeing against the Heroic Target Dummy.
Anyways let me know if you need more info. I'll hopefully be doing a Naxx 25 on Saturday, so more info should be forthcoming.
First glance, this seems like a logical argument. However, I just can't agree with it. As far as I know Hemo is a unique debuff. If the sub tree gets buffed up to the range of combat/assassination, then a sub rogue becomes mandatory in a 25 man where min/maxing becomes an issue. This gets away from Blizz's goal of equal opportunity (de)buffing and mandates that one rogue you bring needs to be sub. I'm not opposed to sub rogues coming to raids but it seems to me that getting all three trees into PvE is greedy.
I'm sure someone is bound to say "It's not greedy wanting to be able to raid as any given tree Blizz gave us." Fine, let's make 24/24/23 viable while we're at it as well because I want to raid that. Sure, that's an extreme, but it's the same logic.
The solution is quite simple. Make Hemo not be a unique debuff (my vote is for Mangle, but others might work). At that point you can't argue that the sub rogue has become mandatory, it'd just be another option to get a certain debuff. I don't think there's anything wrong with Sub being a viable raiding spec, as long as they can't get all their PvP talents while still outputting Mutilate/Combat DPS.
As long as Hemo retains charges, it's basically not a raid debuff at all. The bonus hemo damage ends up being 750 static damage, pretty much like the static damage that gets tacked onto sinister strike. The mechanics are a little weird in that you usually don't get the full bonus while soloing, and it gets multiplied by the raid's average crit rate rather than your own, but it's functionally the same as a static bonus. The only arguable raid benefit is that some of the threat applies to the tank. Unless/until they remove the charges from it, Hemo is perfectly fine staying unique.
While that is a reasonable argument, many would like to see the HEMO charges removed all together, or significantly increased. If/when that happens, the unique debuff argument will come back into play. The trouble with HEMO charges in it's current form is that it is too easily blown through in 25man raids. I would much rather it be a timed debuff. The charges do allow Blizz to force a "hard cap" on how much benefit you can get from it, but to be used up nigh-instantly severely devalues it. Removing the charges would not make an individual rogue any stronger, nor make it stronger in pvp, since there would not be enough hits to take 'more' advantage of the debuff. This would be almost purely a raid benefit, and since Blizz seems determined to add utility to rogues, this seems like an easy place to toss some more in.
- Improved Poisons tooltip now reflects that the talent provides 3/6/9/12/15% increased proc chance, and only for Instant Poison and Deadly Poison.
- Focused Attacks now provides 100% chance on melee crits for 1/2/3 energy.
- Infectious Poisons is removed.
- Unfair Advantage can only occur once per second.
- Envenom now increases your chance to proc poisons by 15% for 2-6 seconds (down from 25%).
- Ambush and Backstab tooltips now correctly reflect the damage of the new ranks. Envenom tooltips are still not accurate but the ability does provide appropriately increased damage at higher ranks.
No word on poison scaling until Wowhead comes back up, most likely.
- Improved Poisons tooltip now reflects that the talent provides 3/6/9/12/15% increased proc chance, and only for Instant Poison and Deadly Poison.
- Focused Attacks now provides 100% chance on melee crits for 1/2/3 energy.
- Infectious Poisons is removed.
- Unfair Advantage can only occur once per second.
- Envenom now increases your chance to proc poisons by 15% for 2-6 seconds (down from 25%).
- Ambush and Backstab tooltips now correctly reflect the damage of the new ranks. Envenom tooltips are still not accurate but the ability does provide appropriately increased damage at higher ranks.
No word on poison scaling until Wowhead comes back up, most likely.
There's a little something there, but it doesn't give any specifics except for the coefficients...
Assassination
* Envenom - Chance to apply poison reduced to 15% from 25%.
* Ambush - Base damage increased from 335 to 907.5 (Rank 10).
* Backstab - Base damage increased from 255 to 465 (Rank 12).
* Improved Poisons - Talent reworked. Now Increases the chance to apply Instant and Deadly Poison to your target by 3/6/9/12/15% down from 5/10/15/20/25%.
Poisons
* Anesthetic Poison II - Chance to apply increased to 50% from 20%.
* Wound Poison VII - Chance to apply increased to 50% from 30%. AP coef reduced to .04 from .06.
* Deadly Poison - Base damaged reduced, AP coef reduced to .12 from .08.
* Instant Poison - Base damaged reduced, AP coef reduced to .15 from .1.
* Mind-numbing Poison - Chance to apply increased to 50% from 20%.
* Crippling Poison - Chance to apply increased to 50% from 30%.
I suspect the order on instant and deadly coefficients should have been reversed. Nonetheless, I think they are fair changes - although I am sad they removed the PVP portion of infectious poisons. Now they just need to do something with turn the tables and assassination should be pretty solid.
Been lurking for awhile now and with all the theorycrafting flying around I thought I'd get more involved.
IMO this is a great solution to re-balancing poisons to be more in-line with physical damage output. Though the damage numbers have been lowered, it still makes up a large enough % of our overall output that ignoring poison damage contribution is still foolhardy.
If I had beta access I'd test whether the increased Mutilate damage from using slow MH/fast OH and slow MH/slow OH is on par with using double fast to take advantage of poisons.
Let's assume a 5 minute fight with 100% uptime of SnD + WF Totem. Assuming an average of 60% haste for those 5 minutes, a MH dagger with 1.80 base speed would have 1.06, giving 283 MH white swings. Taking into account an average uptime of 40% from Envenom increased poison proc chance (a rough estimate. 12 seconds for 2 Mutilates = Envenom every 12 seconds. 5 CP Envenom grants 6 seconds of increased poison proc but there will be 4 CP Envenoms used, granting 5 seconds.) you would have on average a 42% chance to proc IP. That would be 119 IP procs.
Using a 1.40 base speed dagger in the MH after 60% haste your MH speed would be .84 seconds. That equates to 357 MH swings. With 42% chance to proc IP, you would get 150 IP procs from those swings. Only 31 more IP procs over a 5 minute fight going from 1.80 speed down to 1.40
If someone on beta could do a little testing to see the increase in Mutilate damage going from 1.40 MH to 1.80 MH and compare it to the average IP and DP damage from 39 procs it'd be much appreciated. But my opinion is that this may help Mutilate damage catch up to poisons, letting us get use out of both slow and fast daggers.
As an aside, I haven't slept in over a day and typed this up at work. It may very well be possible that all these words make no sense whatsoever, so please correct me if I'm wrong -.-
Poison damage isn't as big right now because you raid with one weapon with Poisons applied and your instant poisons don't also apply deadly. If you can't see the point and make the connection that it's the talent tree, than I don't know what else to tell you.
The 29 % quoted are for IP only, not IP + Deadly.
And I specifically compared to what we're doing right now "even when you use IP on both hands".
Please pay attention to what you quote.
The solution is quite simple. Make Hemo not be a unique debuff (my vote is for Mangle, but others might work). At that point you can't argue that the sub rogue has become mandatory, it'd just be another option to get a certain debuff. I don't think there's anything wrong with Sub being a viable raiding spec, as long as they can't get all their PvP talents while still outputting Mutilate/Combat DPS.
Considering Hemo is a buff adding physical damage to physical attacks, and that it's in the "utility tree", I wonder why they didn't simply remove the charges and made it the "2 % physical debuff" of the rogue, rather than adding a brand new talent for that in the Combat tree.
Maybe because it's not deep enough in the tree, or it costs only a single talent point, and they considered it was too powerful if it was the case.
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
Roughly a 33% reduction in damage on both poisons.
For comparison: [Twilight Mist]: 197-367 damage + 13% AP
Add in talents, mob armour, debuffs (+2% physical, +13% magic), partial resist (6% damage loss) and poisons will still hit harder than your main hand dagger hits.
It appears that the set boni for our 10/25 man Naxx set is
(2) 10% increased rupture damage
(4) 5% reduced energy cost on attacks that grant a combo point.
I'm really noticing a trend to push rupture damage, its possible to stack rupture damage up to 1.3*1.3*1.3*1.3*1.1 = 314% base damage assuming all of the buffs stack and are multiplicative. I doubt that mangle and trauma will but that still leaves 241% increased rupture damage with 7/0/13 + 51 and a feral druid or arms warrior.
The 5% reduced energy is hardly an incentive to keep 4 pieces at all. 3 less energy for Mut, 2 less for SS and Hemo, and either 2 or 3 for Backstab depending if it counts base cost or talented. Not very impressive at all. From what i've seen from Naxx gear the main incentive to wear Tier pieces is the sockets, not the boni.
Edit: Ninja removal of obvious oversight on the 4 pc bonus only affecting combo moves
Thought I'd reference this, as I've not seen it posted here:
Not spectacular, as realistically that's likely to be around 1 in 7 Sinister Strikes giving an extra combo point.
Sorry if this has been posted and I've missed it.
I'm wondering why they made an "improved cp" glyph for SS and not BS, while it's the BS builds which lacks the most in cp generation.
The 5% reduced energy is hardly an incentive to keep 4 pieces at all. 3 less energy for Mut, 2 less for SS and Hemo, and either 2 or 3 for Backstab depending if it counts base cost or talented. Not very impressive at all. From what i've seen from Naxx gear the main incentive to wear Tier pieces is the sockets, not the boni.
Well, 5 % is 5 %. It's not huge, but it's still 5 % more combo attacks in a fights, which means a roughly 1,5 % DPS increase with actual damage distribution (which will certainly change, of course). That's not bad for a "free" bonus.
T6 bonus was 6 % increased damage for cp moves. It's practically the same, just in a different way, a bit less powerful, but a bit more flexible.
The only thing making me wailing in pain, is that they seem intent on keeping 5-pieces sets :-/
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
Seems like a move away from Mutilate as equal raid spec. This especially makes Cut to the Chase weaker. PVP builds won't take it and with the Envenom/Poison change Rupture seems overall stronger as a finisher even for deep Assasination builds, even without considering the set bonus.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
// Edit
However, the Nax set seems to be only 5 pieces. Maybe they'll add more later just like for T6, who knows.
Naxx including a huge number of bosses, it seems very unlikely that they will add more set pieces in another instances ; if they were about to give back the 8-pieces sets, they would certainly have included all the pieces in Naxx.
As T7 is 5-pieces, it seems pretty certain that the 5-pieces sets are here to stay.
Guess we can only hope that there is a sufficient outcry to make them back off and re-do complete sets, but I highly doubt it.
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
Well, 5 % is 5 %. It's not huge, but it's still 5 % more combo attacks in a fights, which means a roughly 1,5 % DPS increase with actual damage distribution (which will certainly change, of course). That's not bad for a "free" bonus.
T6 bonus was 6 % increased damage for cp moves. It's practically the same, just in a different way, a bit less powerful, but a bit more flexible.
In particular: 5% cheaper combo moves gives both 5% more damage from them, but also 5% more combo point generation, and thus more damage from finishers as well. Which, given the relative increase in finisher damage, means that the Naxx-set 4/5 is probably strictly better than the T6 4/5. Now, the T6 4/5 set bonus is certainly not one of the absolute all-time best set bonuses - it pales in comparison to the 2/5, for instance. But it's not at all bad, and it's significantly better than a lot of the set bonuses we've had.
Also note that that this is the initial set. While the 2/5 might not be quite as good as the T4 2/5, the 4/5 is certainly significantly better than the T4 4/5. So I don't think we really have much grounds for complaint about the set bonuses in terms of power.
Now, that said: it does have implications in terms of balance. Like, the extra CPs don't much matter to Mutilate, as it's mostly just spamming Envenom anyway. Meanwhile, a non-CttC build gets proportionately more CP per cycle, and thus benefits more. Similarly, different builds have different reliance on Rupture, so the set bonus will affect balance in that respect as well.
It will also require some testing to figure out how the 5% reduction is applied when the ability cost is not divisible by 20 - for instance, Shiv and Hemo. For that matter, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that the energy reduction on SS is calculated off the base 45 energy cost rather than the Improved 40 energy cost - as I recall from Lucifron back in the day, Imp SS with the curse up costs 45 * 2 - 5 = 85 energy rather than (45-5)*2 = 80 energy. Depending on how rounding works, this might not matter in the slightest... but we'll have to test to see for sure.
Given that naxx does have a huge number of bosses, that we'll be using it to gear up entire raid groups for actual 'new content', I think it would be a good thing if the set bonuses are not a significant factor. We'll be able to equip more of the non-set pieces without worrying about it, reaching a gear baseline ready for the next instance a lot sooner.
I think the 4pc arena + 4pc tier 6 set bonus abuse that came about in season 4 will be a barrier to 8 item sets.
Well I certainly have to agree that after actually thinking about the 4pc bonus properly and seeing how useful it really is that it is a lot more desirable than at first glance. Not only do you have the increased DPS from more combo moves and hence the second order increase in DPS from Finishing moves, you have even more leeway in your cycles. 5% isn't a lot but it would certainly be very welcome when your trying to cut your SnD refreshes close to the timer.
The change to Focused Attacks brings its value up a lot. 1.8 + 1.4 daggers with WF totem and SnD yields 118.9 Attacks per minute. Assuming a modest 25% crit rate that allows for 89.195 Additional Energy per minute compared to just over 200 from CP (when its working again), and it also reduces your average mutilate cost by 1.92 energy at 40% crit w/ puncturing wounds.
At 30% base crit, 45% mut crit and 4/pc Naxx your average Mutilate will only cost 55 Energy and your energy regen increases to 11.7 Energy per second. This allows you to essentially shave off over a second per Mutx2 finisher cycle.
2* 60 Mut - 3 2pc T4 - 2.0925 average reduction from Focussed Attacks.
35 Envenom - 22.71 average relentless strikes return.
2 * 54.905 + 12.29 = 122.1 Energy.
Regenerating 10 Energy + 1.7835 Energy from white Focussed Attack procs = 11.78 Energy per second.
Total average cycle time = 10.36 seconds.
No 4pc and old FA = 12.44 seconds.
Does anyone know if FA procs of crits from Instant Poison? That would add a very slight amount more energy too.
09/17/08, 5:58 PM
. Also, I dropped one point in CQC and instead got 2/2 Deadly Brew.
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