Akka

Disagree.
Melee seems to be all melee attacks, white or yellow.
When they affect only one or the others, in all instances I can remember, they said either "special" or "normal".

If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !

 

Urotsukidoji

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...lch_stones.jpg
A new Alchemist´s Stone is also available.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...idtrinkets.jpg
And a lot of new Trinkets.

 

gokpog

Didn't the old prey on the weak say "melee critical strike damage" before they changed the talent and the tooltip to all "critical strike damage"?

 

Akka

Actually, if I remember correctly, it was "NORMAL melee critical strike damage". But memory is not something perfect, so if someone had a screenshot from the time, it would help.

If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !

 

sp00n

"Your normal melee critical strike damage ..."

3.0 Rogue Talents | DeathKnight.info

 

Krollin

I have been puzzling over a PvE Mutilate build (for level 70) since the beta Talents became somewhat fixed recently.
As the new Talents will be available in Patch 3.x I hope that this post is as relevant for WotLK as it (hopefully) is for the upcoming patch.

I had been looking to see if it is possible to include Master Poisoner and Turn the Tables in a 51/5/5 build. A naive exersize as I am sure most of you will agree.

However it did make me look a lot closer at each Assassination Talent in turn, so the effort was not entirely wasted.

Thanks to Aldriana's succinct analysis on the relative merits of Seal Fate vs Ruthlessness and basing Talent selection on sustained DPS over burst I have come up with hopefully is an optimal 51/5/5 Mutilate build.
As things stand the level 80 build would naturally extend to 51/13/7.

Here it is: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft . Please excuse the out of date calculator, however I have not included Infectious Poisons which would have been a major problem.

Regarding the choice of Ruthlessness over Cold Blood + Seal Fate.

For me the choice was a no brainer, a CP as a result of a finisher is more efficient, and flexible, than having to wait for the energy to use a CP generator. However the choice causes fundamental changes in which talents we choose as fillers and whether we take Turn the Tables or Master Poisoner.

Turn the Tables vs Master Poisoner.

Here the choice was less clear.
Once the decision to ditch Seal Fate was made things became a lot clearer.

The difference between TtT and MP is that TtT leads to a 6% crit increase for CP generators.
Master Poisoner on the other hand leads to an increase of 3% crit for all attacks made on the target you have poisoned.
CP generators no longer having the benefit of Seal Fate and the inclusion of Focussed Attacks (buffed to 100% chance for melee attacks) means that we not only increase the crit rate for the entire Raid (assuming I provide the buff over a Paladin, I do not lose out when a Paladin is providing the buff though) but that we also benefit from an increased energy regeneration from FA.
With the restriction that only 51 points from Assassination are to be taken it makes sense to take Master Poisoner over Turn the Tables.

A natural effect of the choice of Ruthlessness is that I have 3 Talent points to spend on fillers.
Murder and Fleet Footed can be fully talented to soak the 3 points up. I don't consider either of these Talents to be a waste, even in PvE.

The reason for the post is that I have, as yet, seen no PvE Mutilate build that does not include Cold Blood and Seal Fate and am interested to know what the experts have to say. I would also be grateful if anyone took the time to run the build through a spreadsheet to give a comparison between the more "traditional" Seal Fate build and this one.

I must apologise for not presenting any results from the Spreadsheets available, I am unable to run them for a variety of reasons.

 

gokpog

Edit: regarding FA:
Thanks to changing my p/w last week I can't get onto the ptr and no beta key leaves me to guessing, so i'll just wait till someone actually tests FA. We'll have a definite answer pretty soon I think.

 

◊ chalon

The reduction in Poison Damage was necessary to bring Mutilate more in line with Combat, as it was otherwise going to tremendously out perform it. It will be interesting to see how the numbers align now when we start to do comparisons.

 

koaschten

Seems here come the first enchants:


Especially interesting will be Enchant weapon - Massacre, which could be the first enchant to beat Mongoose in the expansion due to it being up all the time instead of the proc that Mongoose is. Enchant Boots - Icewalker adding Hit AND Crit is a nice addition too.

 

Hildegard

No doubt about the needed nerf for poison damage. But even in the last build Rupture was close behind Envenom (I think Aldriana posted something about this some pages back). If the numbers - as I suspect but cannot proof as I don't have any beta key - turn out that rupture is superior to Envenom even with a Mutilate build then Cut to the Chase has no further use.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Isin

So just a quick question on Master Poisoner vs. Close Quarters Combat.

At first I thought the edge went to Close Quarters, because Master Poisoner requires the target to be poisoned. However, I realized from the wording that it sounds like Master Poisoner will also affect Instant Poison's crit chance, while Close Quarters will not.

Has anyone done any dummy-beating/modeling to compare the contributions of these talents?

This is my level 70 build, and I'm thinking where I want to put my next point, basically:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

 

Alexsiss

Master poisoner will always be better then CQC unless your raid is gaining the 3% crit buff from a different class.

Edit: Above is assuming raid but solo/pvp MP should be better then CQC just because they have the same effect but MP effects poisons.

 

Tinwhisker

Assuming you use Rupture as a finisher instead of Envenom you then have to build Slice and Dice into your rotation; I think a better idea might be to use Envenom as a primary (with Cut to the Chase keeping SnD up) and Glyph/talent for longer, stronger Ruptures that you can use as a secondary.

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

ShadowEric

You should be able to log on to the PTR with an older password. Try your previous password(s). They always do it that way for some reason. It's never the very latest account info that's used for PTR copies.

 

◊ chalon

EDIT/UPDATE: On the WoW rogue forums, people are saying that it triggers off of white, special, finishers, and Instant Poison crits. Unsure whether or not that's intended, but that's the way it currently is. Just off the top of my head that brings it very much in-line with Combat Potency regen rate I believe.

I strongly, strongly disagree with the idea of not taking Seal Fate. You lose a lot of flexibility in what cycle you run if you don't have SF IMO. The two points you then spend in Blood Splatter are pointless because there's no way you will be able to run both Envenom and Rupture finishers unless you go for unoptimal smaller ones.

Both talents only affect your melee crit chance. The spell crit debuff is Imp. Scorch and/or Winter's Chill. I'm interested to see whether or not Master Poisoner gives a separate debuff now, and if it doesn't does it actually work? Before I just wasn't sure whether or not it was actually working.

Even if Rupture individually is better than Envenom, I would imagine 2 Envenoms (EDIT: or 1 Rupture 1 Envenom) > 1 Rupture 1 SnD. And don't forget in order for an SnD/Rupture cycle to be viable as Mutilate you need to likely invest 2 points in Blood Splatter and at least 1 point in Imp. SnD to get the cycle to work. You will want to go 51 Assassination for Mutilate regardless, so you still have to spend points in that tree. You can't not take HfB.

On the other hand for the Envenom cycle, the only talent you're getting which improves Envenom you're already going to take - Vile Poisons.

Exactly. Especially with the tremendous buff to Focused Attacks you'll have a CP dump. Even before Focused Attacks I would get into odd cycles where I had 4 CPs up and 15+ seconds on my SnD timer, and at that point having Rupture as a superior CP dump is fine. As opposed to before where you were likely hurting yourself by not just doing another Envenom. Keep in mind though Rupture being viable is all conjecture...we won't know how viable Rupture is until we can both calculate and test it.

 

◊ gwystyl

I only see that as being better than goose on the OH, Daemona.

 

Pharmacon

I see Blizz implementing a Crusader like diminishing return on Mongoose to prevent people from using an old enchant over a new content enchant.

 

Ashere

The rotation would turn into 1 Rupture - 1 Envenom instead, with the Envenom to refresh SnD.

 

skorpeo

So whats the general consensus for PVE professions in WtoLK? Last I read on them LW and Enchanting still lead the way, though with a lot of Inscription information being discovered lately, does it compare? Sorry if this has been covered here. I have looked over 40 pages of this thread ><

 

Isin

Sorry, I'm confused. Does MP not stack with some other buff?

It is not listed on the official wow forum post on the raid buff stacking changes:

World of Warcraft (English) Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

 

◊ chalon

Yeah, you can do that as well, and it may be that's optimal. But the response was specifically to the idea that Cut to the Chase was worthless now, which I disagree with .

 

◊ chalon

They've done a lot more balancing with the professions. Generally each profession has an exclusive slot enchant that's better than what enchanters can provide, and then additionally on top of that you have. So it seems to be more balanced as to what your choices are, though it would seem like the +stat bonuses you get from the gathering professions aren't as high as the bonuses you'd get from a crafting one. But that's probably intended. That said I'd imagine Inscription, LW, Enchanting, and JC should all be good selections for rogues.

Master Poisoner and Heart of the Crusader do not stack and are both +3% melee crit debuffs.

 

Alexsiss

3% to all not just melee crit i believe

 

Amerilina

Here is another interesting one

Formula: Enchant Weapon - Berserking - Item - World of Warcraft

 

Isin

Obviously a great choice for PVE, but I feel like in BC, weapons were the one item that translated nicely between PVP and PVE. I don't know if I want to have a great pve weapon with a huge pvp downside.