Shatosen

I've been following this thread for a while, and in all of the PvE 51/x/7 specs, I have not seen Imp SnD taken. I was hoping that someone could shed some light as to why this talent is skipped (perhaps synergy between CQC and SF?).

Has anyone done an estimated DPS check on Imp SnD? If so, what is the value?

My apologies if this is a noob question or redundant, I'm still learning the class.

 

Isin

The thought is that Imp SnD is rendered unnecessary by Cut To the Chase, if Envenom is your finisher. I am curious what the optimal number of points in Cut to the Chase is going to be, but I think that will be heavily dependent on a lot of factors like melee haste and crit rating. Maybe something for the spreadsheet modeling gurus?

 

◊ chalon

Also with the change to Focused Attacks and the SnD Glyph, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to sustain 4+e/4+r cycles pretty easily without Imp SnD.

 

Isin

I'd have to spend some quality time with the dummy, but I thought it was established that with poisons at their current level, envenom spam was higher dps than rupture. If that's the case, I think that you can spec something like 3/5 Cut to the Chase and be safe, right?

[Edit: sorry, didn't see the theorycrafting upthread from the post-patch analysis. Still, I think that the decision between rupture and envenom is still up in the air, and will be heavily dependent on glyph choice and set bonuses.]

 

weka

The main benefit from JC is that it's a moneymaker. A rogue who cannot afford consumables is doing a lot less dmg. You can honestly spend 50% less time farming. This gives you more free time to theorycraft. I'll work out a formula for this later.

 

Katria

I'd just like to clarify that every point past the first in SF gives diminishing returns, 3 points isn't some magic number. I used 3 points in SF as an example since Ruthlessness is a 3 point talent. As an example, at a 40% crit chance, 1 point in SF gives you a 28.3% chance for a 5pt finisher. The next point adds about 22%, then 16.4%, 12%, and 8.4%, for a total of about 87% chance with 5 points invested.

However, Aldriana is correct in that the synergy between ruthlessness and SF is important, since they are not exclusive talents (you can take both and don't have to choose one or the other). I'm not sure how to rate the value of a 4 point finisher after 1 mutilate, but those two talents definitely have synergy. Looking again at a 40% chance to crit (seems reasonable in a raid setting), 3 points ruthlessness and increasing points in SF:

1 mut 4pt finisher chance:
1 SF = 9.2%
2 SF = 17.7%
3 SF = 25.3%
4 SF = 32.3%
5 SF = 38.4%

2 mut 5pt finisher chance:
1 SF = 62.1%
2 SF = 62.4%
3 SF = 61.3%
4 SF = 59.2%
5 SF = 56.4%

2 mut 4pt finisher chance:
1 SF = 28.7%
2 SF = 19.9%
3 SF = 13.3%
4 SF = 8.6%
5 SF = 5.2%

The last point in SF is hardly worth it I think. 2 to 3 points in SF is probably optimal, with additional points giving severe diminishing returns. At the end the problem with SF is the first point is pretty good, additional points just give less bang for your buck.

 

◊ chalon

Right, we still don't know whether or not Envenom spam or Envenom/Rupture Cycles are better. However, either way it ends up being I don't believe you need Imp. SnD.

 

• Aldriana

Being a moneymaker is a valid point. On the other hand, the consumables cost - particularly with the addition of Potion Sickness - is not really that high. I haven't farmed for gold in months, and I continuously make more than I spend on repairs and consumables. Besides, we generally theorycraft to the maximum possible DPS, not the maximum DPS for lazy people. It's not the the latter isn't worth knowing as well, and I'm not saying people shouldn't go JC and make some extra money - I'm just saying that from a pure raid DPS perspective, it should be assessed only on it's stat contributions, and not on any external benefits that may or may not exist.

 

Neverest

So, from what I read so far, consider:

No conclusion on have rupture in circle until further theory craft in live,
No Blood Splatter for pure envenom circle
Quick Recovery seems not worth it, but basically choose between 2 point here or 2 on Fleet Footed
5 point SF not worth it, take it 2-3 points for max effect
Master Poisoner not worth it considering existence of as many if not even more ret pally than us rogues(ok, a joke, we are too many somtimes), by all means, Master Poisoner can be considered as more of a utility skill in current case, not for max dps discussion anymore
Cut to the Chase not worth 5 point, take it 3-4 points

Sample build:
1. no Blood Splatter so no rupture circle
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000
or even
2. have Blood Splatter, so rupture +envenom circle
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000
last 2 points in Close Quarter Combat or Opportunity which need further testing to prove the choice.

 

Isin

Looks good, except I still think Vigor is not that great for PVE. I would move that point to Master Poisoner. I'm also not sure about the number crunching values of close combat vs. opportunity.

My plan is to try something like this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

And if I find that SnD isn't staying up as much as I like, I'll move one point from MP back.

The only other really annoying thing about this build is right now it only benefits from Glyph of Slice and Dice, and after that there are really no other glyphs that improve this build at all, so maybe the rupture cycle is actually going to have an edge with that in mind.

 

Luuca

In the Assasination trees' current form, I agree with you that 5/5 Seal Fate is a bit weak or perhaps undervalued for it's position in the tree. 3/5 SF (+1 CB) does have some functionality with the current changes, and achieves similar results as 3pts in Ruthlessness in its own way. I would like to ask how you think SF could be "improved" from its current mechanic and "justify it's placement in the tree". I don't think that in a tree as top heavy as Assassination is at this moment, increasing the value of SF is going to solve anything. It is, in my opinion, very good filler (at 3 points) and given that the perfect cycle (even when it's determined) is seldom achieved in live play, taking both 3/3 SF and 3/3 Ruthl will probably be common. Based upon the synergy and strength of the Assassination tree, I doubt if you will see a 1 point SF and a 5 point Deadend Nerves any time soon. The SF issue is most likely mute.

Originally Posted by EJ Moderator You have received an infraction at Elitist Jerks. Reason: Useless Post ------- I'm not going to say he didn't deserve that, but it doesn't make your post any less useless. -------

 

• Aldriana

Given that we haven't pinned down cycles in great detail so far, I think it's far too early to say that 5-pt SF isn't worth it. It might not be, but until we have the chance to grind on cycles for a while there's no guarantee that you can do anything better with those points.

For that matter, there's no guarantee that a straight-Envenom cycle trumps an Envenom/Rupture cycle, so Blood Spatter may well be worth taking. Again, until we've figured out detailed damage estimates for the top cycles, it's just hard to say for sure.

 

Neverest

Thanks for the clarification, this is still just an attempt to summarize some main points that have been taken, it's mainly for the cause of helping readers' memory for further discussion.

 

Naganuina

I seem to recall reading that armorsmiths would get to add an extra meta socket to some piece of gear. It seems that an extra meta would outweigh the benefits of enchanting or jewelcrafting.

But looking though the profession pages on mmo-champ I can't seem to find anything on it, actually I can't find mention of anything but the belt buckle in terms of added sockets.

 

Amerilina

Blacksmithing currently has:

Socket Gloves - Spell - World of Warcraft

and

Socket Bracer - Spell - World of Warcraft


There is also this in the data files

Socket One-Handed Weapon - Spell - World of Warcraft


The socket gloves and socket bracers work with enchants, so you can have a clolorless socket + enchant on each. I have not confirmed this myself but this was post in the beta forums. I have a Level 80 DK with BS leveled I can try and confirm this tonight.

 

Krollin

Thanks for the feedback on my level 70 build.

To clarify a couple of points

- I have AtoL, one of the ideas behind using 3 CP Ruptures was to increase the buff uptime from that item.

- Part of the reason why I chose Ruthlessness over Seal Fate, apart from the difference in cost, is that the Ruthlessness generated CP is there at the beginning of the CP generation phase and comes free from your finisher. I consider that to be an important factor in deciding to go with Ruthlessness over CB+SF. That CP can give you a quick SnD restart if and when it drops off.

Having said that and taking the fact that 3/5 SF + CB is considered worth investing in, it is possible to get all 3 and still take either Master Poisoner or Turn the Tables.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...00000000000000

is the Master Poisoner version.

I chose Quick Recovery because it improves my survivability. You can spend the points in Fleet Footed if you like.
I was attempting to provoke more discussion about Ruthlessness vs CB+Seal Fate, in which I was successful.
The other Talents in the build are, as far as the discussion concerned, fillers.

My intuition tells me that the build above could make single Mutilate cycles viable given the right gear, in particular with AtoL, and with high levels of crit% which make Turn the Tables even less valuable in the context of a Raid.
However it would be unreasonable to expect a pure single Mutilate cycle, the maths posted above make the irefutable.
What you do get is more flexibility, worst case is 2 Mutilate 4 CP finisher, best case is a 1 Mutilate 4 CP finisher, you would expect to have more 2 Mutilate 5 CP finishers than either of them.

It is quite possible that you will have Retridins and Totems of Wrath in the Raid. However there is also the distinct possibility that you won't have them either. Not only that but the buff redundancy in Patch 3 and beyond will mean there is less of a drop in Raid DPS when one of the (de)buff provider die or is not able to provide the debuff to your current target.

I will be able to run some comparisons on spreadsheets tomorrow, if that works out I will post my findings here.

Being able to do that will also remove some of the "intuition" and add more concrete theorycrafting too.

 

• Aldriana

Looking at the wording of those abilities, it appears that the weapon one - should it be added - might work on any weapon, as it doesn't say "yours" like the bracer and glove ones do. So I'm guessing BS would only add the two sockets regardless of whether the third one is real. And this additionally makes sense in that 2 sockets would be an extra 40 80 AP, putting it right in the mix with the other top (non-LW) talents. In fact, if there exist good crafted weapons, BS might even pass them for the second spot.

Edit: fixed typo.

 

nosille

Agreed, and new cycles could really chance the rules.

I do not see stacking SF and Ruthlessness as being worth the 3+1+5 talent point investment in TBC. The difference between 3 points in Ruthlessness and 9 point in Ruthlessness+CB+SF is marginal unless you can effectively take advantage of the chance to get 4+ CP's on one mutilate. I have had a hard time reliably doing this. As soon as I try to squeeze in an extra Eviscerate, I have a bad cycle where SF and Ruthlessness do not proc and I let something drop.

In TBC there really are not any better choices. Given some of the talents I have seen in WOTLK, giving one or the other up is worth doing the math.

On the other hand, the problem with reliably taking advantage of the potential for 1 mutilate generating 4+ CP’s is a result of the current cycles. An all envenom cycle would not have this problem. In an all envenom cycle the diminishing returns for each additional talent point would transfer over to CttC.

All we can for sure at this point is that the final theorycrafting for mutilate could be very interesting.

 

Ticia

The problem with speccing less than 5/5 CttC is that you drastically increase your chances of dropping SnD. With a 4+n/4+r Rotation, you are only firing one Envenom per cycle, so you have a 40% Chance to drop SnD every single Cycle. When that happens, you will have to build up more combo points as SnD falls off, and then spend energy and CPs firing it off again, significantly reducing your DPS.

Even for an Envenom spam rotation, you are only launching 2 Envenoms in the duration of one full length SnD, so you have a 16% Chance to drop SnD every cycle, and again if that happens you will have to spend time, CPs, and energy reapplying the buff, hurting your DPS.

 

Tinwhisker

I'm not saying the mechanic is terribly bad or that the Assassination tree needs some buffing, but unlocking it from CB and moving it to a lower value tier while moving a better talent (like Improved Poisons) into it's place would put them both more in line with their values. This would clearly denote SF as the filler it is as well. And if it absolutely needs to be tree'd with another talent, it could reasonably use Puncturing Wounds as a pre-req.

The only problem I see with this though is that Combat builds would be able to Glyph for extra CPs as well as take SF for extra CPs which may be slightly OP unless it actually was tied to Puncturing Wounds. (Or if it wasn't, perhaps that would help balance Combat and Assassination further. *shrug* I have no idea about that.)

The Assassination tree is quite top-heavy, and I can't argue that as 'filler' talents go it's one of the best. Still, counting the point spent in CB as a pre-req, the talent points spent in SF always give lower value per talent point than each point spent in Ruthlessness and you will always lose some CPs that you spent talent points to gain (therefore they were never 'free').

You're a lot of DPS, you know that? You wanna' earn 14 achievement points the hard way?

 

• Aldriana

It might be worth noting that I already *did* the math a couple days back; see post 2028 in this thread. Admittedly it was pre-patch so things have changed a bit, but the results are pretty clear - point-for-point, SF does about as much damage as Malice. The fact that you have to take Cold Blood (which doesn't add much DPS) hurts it somewhat, but it's pretty clear that it's a talent worth taking.

I don't really get why people are passing off SF as mere "filler". Point-for-point, the only talents in Assassination that clearly beat it are the poison talents, which are pretty clearly overtuned even after a nerf. That said: as deep into the tree it is, I think it's reasonable to say that it's reasonable to expect it to be a bit *better* than the T1 talents, particularly since it's inferior to the T1 talents in the other two trees; but lets be clear: it's clearly a DPS talent, if perhaps a bit underpowered. It's not mere "filler" as many have been claiming, any more than Malice is. Could it use a buff? Sure. But there's a big difference between SF and, say, Vigor, or Quick Recovery - one is clearly filler, and the other is clearly not.

 

Macblade

On a practical note keep in mind that when LK hits everyone is going to want craftables and other items that can be bought. That is, there will be a big difference between now, when the ONLY thing to spend gold on is consumables for raiding and LK when presumably there will be a lot of BOE items, craftable items, rep items etc. that one could spend money on. So, I think there is actually a pretty strong argument that choosing a profession that has built in benefits as well as being a money maker could maximize your DPS a lot more than one whose built in benefits are only slight.

Remember you have to put your mindset back to the kara days, when there were items that WERE actually worth buying (at least worth buying until you got lucky with drops in Kara), not the current situation where you can get dragged through hyjal and pick up T6 for free.

 

Arindelest

That's just basically an extension of the "I'm lazy" reason for taking a profession. Any amount of gold can be earned through other means if you put the time/effort into it, so although it might be easier to acquire enough gold to buy something, you could instead have the tangible benefits of another profession as well as whatever you wanted to buy with additional effort.

 

weka

Would it be possible to sub out mutilate for hemo with a spec similar to, say, http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...01000000000000 ???

 

Raconzor

Weka -

Is that a pve or pvp build your talking about?

From a pve perspective, realize just how awful all the points but relentless strikes that are spent in the sub tree are. Serrated blades is the only other thing that even sort of contributes to dps, and as noted elsewhere armorpen in the pve setting is alot worse in the expac than it is now, re:scaling issues. So, that's 12 points that are completely wasted.

From a pvp perspective, although hemo is cool and alot of the utility there is also cool ... I'd say the utility of Hunger for Blood is unrivaled by any of the stuff you took instead, unless it was nerfed into the ground in the last patch. In addition, CttC doesn't seem like much of a pvp talent to me but it seems like you went to the top of assassinate for it specifically.

This isn't bringing the numbers into it, I'll leave that to others, but ... some things to consider.